Annihilationism

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Jesus described Hades when speaking of the Rich Man and Abraham, NOT hell. Check the greek. Gehenna is Hell. Hades is Sheol.

I have already clearly addressed Matthew 25:46 multiple times. You keep repeating the same argument I have already refuted.

Personally, I do not consider disagreeing as "refuting".

Your contention seems to be that because you addressed it and spoke to it, it is a finished deal. Not so my dear friend. That simply means you have a differing opinion.

Sheol is the Hebrew name for the place of eternal punishment.
Hades is the Greek name for the place of eternal punishment.

Between death and resurrection the immaterial part of man goes either to be with the Lord if he is saved as seen in 2 Cor. 5:8 & Phil. 1:23, or into conscious torment as seen in Luke 16. Resurrection will unite the body to the soul and that state of existence will continue
on for the rest of eternity in the location of ones own choice.
 
Wow. There is so much to address. I can understand everyone's frustration here. The conversation is going in a lot of different directions. Let me address just four things.


1. I believe the Bible. The Bible is true. We must accept what the Bible says whether we like it or not. I am not trying to change the Bible. The Bible is what changed me. All of my arguments come straight from the Bible. I have never once claimed that annihilationism is easier to believe, or more merciful, or more loving. It is none of those things. It is the absolute worst punishment imaginable. Annihilationism is not the easier belief. It is hard to disbelieve centuries of church doctrine. It is hard to preach a minority view and suffer the insults of Christian brothers and sisters. It is hard to change one's own mind. But church doctrine is not my authority. Christian brothers and sisters are not my authority. My own mind is not my authority. The Bible is my authority.


2. I affirm eternal punishment. The punishment of the unsaved is of eternal consequence. I do not disagree with Jesus. I am not calling Him a liar. When Jesus says we should fear God, who can destroy our soul, I believe Him. The excruciatingly painful destruction of a person's resurrection body and soul in the lake of fire is a terrible and fearful thing. There will be sorrow and weeping. There will be angry gnashing of teeth. There will be great torment and suffering. And when the destruction of the lost is complete, it will be final. It will stand finished for all eternity. There is no second chance. There is no longer any hope, not even false hope that those in hell might someday be released. Destruction of the soul is an eternal punishment. And there is nothing worse than that.


3. Sheol is not the same as hell. In the OT, both the righteous dead (Genesis 37:35) and the unrighteous dead (Proverbs 9:18) go to sheol. It is a place of torment for the unrighteous, and a place of rest for the righteous. In the septuagint (the ancient greek translation of the hebrew scriptures), the hebrew word sheol is translated into greek as hades. And in Acts 2:27, Peter quotes Psalm 16, which in hebrew uses the word sheol. But in greek, Peter uses the word hades to quote Psalm 16. This is proof positive from the Bible itself that sheol and hades are just different hebrew and greek words for the same thing.

Hades/Sheol is NOT hell/gehenna/lake of fire. In fact, hades gets destroyed in the lake of fire, the second death. Therefore they cannot be the same place.

Revelation 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Obviously the dead DO leave hades. Hades gives them up for judgement, both the righteous and the unrighteous. And then hades is destroyed. Any torment that happens in hades is NOT eternal. So when Jesus talks about hades, he is NOT talking about hell, NOT talking about eternal torment. He is talking about sheol, a temporary place. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is not set in a permanent hell. It is set in a temporary hades.


4. God offers all people a choice: Life or death. When Jesus uses words like death, destruction, perish... are they hyperbole? Allegory? When Paul uses the same words, are they just expressions or euphemisms? When James and Peter use them, do we not take them literally? Should we go to the greek dictionaries and find secondary meanings to support our pet doctrines? No.

The following are clear didactic New Testament teachings that present the choice of eternal life or eternal death. I have listed many, but there are many more. Please take a look at these passages, acknowledge that they are clear didactic teachings, and then use them to interpret the parables, prophecies, and visionary passages that seem to support eternal conscious torment. Don't get it backwards. This is a sound interpretive principle. You really should not interpret ALL of the following verses just to fit Matthew 25:41, 46, Revelation 14:11, and Revelation 20:10 (although you may find yourself doing exactly that, even as you are reading the list below). Please read these verses, give each one careful attention, and accept the literal truth of what these verses plainly teach. THEN consider the parable of Matthew 25 and the vision of Revelation in light of them.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Matthew 10:28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 18:14
14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 9:22
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Galatians 6:8
8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Philippians 1:28
28 without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Hebrews 10:39
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

James 4:12
12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

James 5:20
20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

2 Peter 3:7
7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Common sense dictates that a God of love and justice does not arbitrarily annihilate the crowning jewels of his creation. Far from rubbing us out, he graciously provides us the freedom to choose between redemption and rebellion. It would be a horrific evil to think that God would create people with freedom of choice and then annihilate them because of their choices.

Furthermore, common sense leads to the conclusion that nonexistence is not better than existence since nonexistence is nothing at all—as Norman Geisler aptly puts it, “to affirm that nothing can be better than something is a gigantic category mistake.” It also is crucial to recognize that not all existence in hell is equal.

We may safely conclude that the torment of Hitler’s hell will greatly exceed the torment experienced by a garden-variety pagan. God is perfectly just, and each person who spurns his grace will suffer exactly what he deserves (Luke 12:47–48; Matt. 16:27; Col. 3:25; Rev. 20:11–15; Prov. 24:12).

Finally, humans are fashioned in the very image of God; therefore, to eliminate them would do violence to His nature. The alternative to annihilation is quarantine. And that is precisely what hell is.
 
If Hades is a place of "eternal punishment" then how do you explain the fact Hades is destroyed in the Lake of Fire (Rev 20)... surely that means it's not eternal...

God gives people life. How would it be offensive to his nature for Him to then take it away? It surely would be more offensive to his nature to suppose he torments them forever and remains eternally angry.
 
What a waste of time...I watched enough of that video to see that there no understanding of the Work of Christ and the judgment of God and all these vast jumps in biblical logic are just unacceptable as to find the truth of this issue. Why cant people just stay within the truth of what the scriptures teach?... Lets see lay one error down, and then build off that error more error ... "God is in Hades"...what a doctrine of demons!
If you claim that God is not in hades/sheol, then are you denying the omnipresence of God?
 
If Hades is a place of "eternal punishment" then how do you explain the fact Hades is destroyed in the Lake of Fire (Rev 20)... surely that means it's not eternal...

God gives people life. How would it be offensive to his nature for Him to then take it away? It surely would be more offensive to his nature to suppose he torments them forever and remains eternally angry.
See this is why you guys cant discuss this issue? The scriptures a few verses before this one tell us that the devil will be punished forever and ever... then you misquote the scripture ...or your translation is in error...
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Come on! you guys are WAY OFF in left field!
 
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Jesus described Hades when speaking of the Rich Man and Abraham, NOT hell. Check the greek. Gehenna is Hell. Hades is Sheol.

I have already clearly addressed Matthew 25:46 multiple times. You keep repeating the same argument I have already refuted.

I do not mean to keep hashing over things but when you say that you have refuted Matthew 25:46, are you saying that you are rejecting what it says altogether.

Can you speak to that in a short concise answer without illustrations or examples.

It is abundantly clear that the judgment of the nations, the goats are banished into EVERLASTING FIRE or hell if you prefer. Both the judgment and the blessed life are designated by the same adjective....."ETERNAL". That, no matter how it is spun means that their duration is equal. That judgment then is in complete agreement with Revelation 14:11, and 19:15.

What we started talking about was "annihilation". The destruction totally of the wicked lost so that they do not suffer in hell.

How can that be possible in light of all the verses that say exactly the opposite?
 
See this is why you guys cant discuss this issue? The scriptures a few verses before this one that the devil will be punished forever and ever... then you misquote the scripture ...or your translation is in error...
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Come on! you guys are WAY OFF in left field!

So you think death and hades will be tormented forever and ever?
 
If you claim that God is not in hades/sheol, then are you denying the omnipresence of God?
That's just silly and you probably have no understand of what "ominepresence" means or how God manifest Himself or how the realms of the spirit work... come on ...lol
 
Ok, so rather than just being condescending at every possible opportunity, tell us what Rev 20 says about death and hades...
If you feel I am speaking down to you...its because you are just making up whatever comes to your mind about what the scriptures are saying. You misquoted a scripture and I caught you and reproved you, I will continue to present the scriptures in their intended context and meaning. If this bothers or frustrates you? Stop trying to twist the scriptures!
 
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 
If you feel I am speaking down to you...its because you are just making up whatever comes to your mind about what the scriptures are saying. You misquoted a scripture and I caught you and reproved you, I will continue to present the scriptures in their intended context and meaning. If this bothers or frustrates you? Stop trying to twist the scriptures!

I actually didn't quote scripture- I gave the interpretation that death and hades are destroyed in the lake of fire. I'm still waiting for your exegesis on that passage...
 
If Hades is a place of "eternal punishment" then how do you explain the fact Hades is destroyed in the Lake of Fire (Rev 20)... surely that means it's not eternal...

God gives people life. How would it be offensive to his nature for Him to then take it away? It surely would be more offensive to his nature to suppose he torments them forever and remains eternally angry.

A little study of the Scriptures would help you to understand more.

Death = representing the bodies of the dead which had lain in the earth and sea.

Hades = the place of torment for soul and spirit of the unrighteous dead between death and the judgment.

Death and Hades, here viewed as if they were personal beings, share the same fate. They, of course, cease to be and will be replaced by the "Lake of Fire.. There is nothing more of temporal death or of the place of departed spirits after this. They are not personal beings, hence their casting into “the lake of fire” is the end of them; but, conceived of as persons, they are consigned to exactly the same eternal punishment with the other wicked from all the ages of existence.
 
I actually didn't quote scripture- I gave the interpretation that death and hades are destroyed in the lake of fire. I'm still waiting for your exegesis on that passage...
Don't have to explain it ...I posted the scripture you misquoted...its that simple!

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 
Well, this thread is full of love!

Why is it that the only threads that get more than a couple of pages here are the ones where people want to insult each other?
Mitspa, you can say that you're not throwing personal insults all you like but the reality is you're just being passive aggressive about it.
 
So you think death and hades will be tormented forever and ever?

It does not matter what we think or want. It matters only what God has said my friend!

So then.YES! The wicked lost will be tormented forever and ever exactly how the Bible describes it.

Do I like that NO! Does that change it? NO!!!!
 
A little study of the Scriptures would help you to understand more.

Death = representing the bodies of the dead which had lain in the earth and sea.

Hades = the place of torment for soul and spirit of the unrighteous dead between death and the judgment.

Death and Hades, here viewed as if they were personal beings, share the same fate. They, of course, cease to be and will be replaced by the "Lake of Fire.. There is nothing more of temporal death or of the place of departed spirits after this. They are not personal beings, hence their casting into “the lake of fire” is the end of them; but, conceived of as persons, they are consigned to exactly the same eternal punishment with the other wicked from all the ages of existence.

I'm sorry, but if you agree that this is the end of Hades you can't see Hades as being a place of "eternal torment" (temporary torment perhaps, but not eternal...) So at least we've been able to establish that Hades and Gehenna are not the same thing.
 
Your contention seems to be that because you addressed it and spoke to it, it is a finished deal. Not so my dear friend. That simply means you have a differing opinion.

What I spoke to regarding sheol/hades has not been addressed.

1. Hades/sheol will give up its dead on the day of judgement (Rev 20.13).
2. Hades/sheol will be thrown into the lake of fire on the day of judgement (Rev 20:14).

Therefore,

3. Hades is a temporary location of the dead, not a permanent one.
4. Hades is not the lake of fire.

Therefore,

Eternal conscious torment in the lake of fire cannot be substantiated by appeals to passages about hades (Luke 16, et al).
 
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