Annihilationism

Status
Not open for further replies.
You know what, I apologize for that. It wasn't proper of me to say. I was getting caught up and all the posts coming so quickly and got a bit heated. I apologize for anything that I said during this thread that has been insulting to anyone. Forgive me?


begging.gif



I say we start over and discuss this with no insults. Lets just take verses and analyze them. Why do you think Ken is wrong/ Why do you think he's right/ I have a different opinion on the whole matter etc.
 
Oh come on? This is your biblical logic? What does the scriptures say? Not what you want to believe!

Where do the scriptures say Lazarus was in paradise? In my translation it says "Abraham's bosom". If we are going to stumble at these obvious points of scripture what chance has this thread got in producing truth?

I have no interest in debating with those who wish to take issue with what the scripture clearly says or clearly does not say. Unless common sense comes to the rescue I think I can find more constructive outlets for my time.
 
You think just because someone disagrees with you they are wrong. I have no use for a discussion with someone who refuses to even watch the sermon that Ken was nice enough to put on here for us. Continue in your bigotry.

NO sir. You are welcome to disagree with me all you want to my grasshopper. I simply do not care if you agree or disagree with me.
I am not the one to be concerned with but instead it is the Word of God which is quick and cuts like a two edged sword.
From your rude remarks here it seems that you may be bleeding a little.

Actually, where and when did I say that I had NOT watched the sermon from Ken that was posted????

If you will put your remarks in your pocket and try to remember to be civil, and then go back and read comment #42, you will see how silly and stupid what you just said was.
 
You know what, I apologize for that. It wasn't proper of me to say. I was getting caught up and all the posts coming so quickly and got a bit heated. I apologize for anything that I said during this thread that has been insulting to anyone. Forgive me?


begging.gif



I say we start over and discuss this with no insults. Lets just take verses and analyze them. Why do you think Ken is wrong/ Why do you think he's right/ I have a different opinion on the whole matter etc.

Oooops.......to late! Just read your comment before I posted my response to you.
 
You know what, I apologize for that. It wasn't proper of me to say. I was getting caught up and all the posts coming so quickly and got a bit heated. I apologize for anything that I said during this thread that has been insulting to anyone. Forgive me?

I say we start over and discuss this with no insults. Lets just take verses and analyze them. Why do you think Ken is wrong/ Why do you think he's right/ I have a different opinion on the whole matter etc.

There is nothing to really discuss. If Scriptures contradict at several points in understanding, then the understanding is flawed.

Ken's view is not Ken's view, He just is saying the same nonsense I have heard through the years, same wrong and broken arguments.

Things that people don't want to believe in the bible they suddenly become "
Allegory" and "Hyperbole" and "parables" In other words, in their opinion, not true.

Jesus described Hell, Described what Abraham personally said to someone in Hell.

To say that is just some Parable Jesus made up, would be to say Jesus misrepresented Abraham in a deceiving and wrong way. Claiming someone said something when they did not is evil. It's not right. This is how much they actually think of Jesus when they call this a parable.

This shows you that folks that believe in No Eternal punishment, that something is wrong with them, something is wrong with their heart. They have to make Jesus out a liar and they think nothing of it.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(Mat 25:46)

If Jesus said there is everlasting punishment and eternal life then there is. Can't be one without the other. If He said there is a place where the fire never is quenched, then there is such a place.
 
Quick reply. I have a funeral service to do this evening...

Isaiah 34 deals with the destruction of Edom. It is a prophetic vision of what will happen when Edom is destroyed.

8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. 9 And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. 10 Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.

This vision of the fire being unquenchable and the smoke rising forever is a metaphor. Edom was destroyed long ago, and the smoke no longer rises. This visionary language is identical to the visionary language in Revelation. So since the smoke mentioned in Isaiah is not literally rising to this day, it is safe to conclude that the smoke in Revelation is not meant to be understood literally either.

The symbolic language of Isaiah represents the total and final destruction of Edom. The symbolic language of Revelation represents the total and final destruction of the lost.

More tonight...
 
Quick reply. I have a funeral service to do this evening...

Isaiah 34 deals with the destruction of Edom. It is a prophetic vision of what will happen when Edom is destroyed.

8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. 9 And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. 10 Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.

This vision of the fire being unquenchable and the smoke rising forever is a metaphor. Edom was destroyed long ago, and the smoke no longer rises. This visionary language is identical to the visionary language in Revelation. So since the smoke mentioned in Isaiah is not literally rising to this day, it is safe to conclude that the smoke in Revelation is not meant to be understood literally either.

The symbolic language of Isaiah represents the total and final destruction of Edom. The symbolic language of Revelation represents the total and final destruction of the lost.

More tonight...
Looking forward to it!
 
Your wisdom is flawed as it's not the same thing.

There would be a very good reason why Churches who support homosexual pastors and same sex marriages would also not like to believe in eternal punishment for those that have rejected the Word of God.

Think about it.........................................

That would be relevant if we were talking about universalism, but we're not!

This thread is like a horse race where not only did the horses not make any advance around the circuit but they bolted out of the stadium instead. We're actually getting further and further away from any real discusiion here.
 
Jesus described Hell, Described what Abraham personally said to someone in Hell.

If Jesus said there is everlasting punishment and eternal life then there is. Can't be one without the other. If He said there is a place where the fire never is quenched, then there is such a place.

Jesus described Hades when speaking of the Rich Man and Abraham, NOT hell. Check the greek. Gehenna is Hell. Hades is Sheol.

I have already clearly addressed Matthew 25:46 multiple times. You keep repeating the same argument I have already refuted.
 
I want to believe what the Bible teaches which is why I'm not afraid to ignore man's interpretation and try to form my own. It has nothing to do with loved ones for me. If the Bible teaches ECT then that's what I have to believe, but that doesn't appear to be what it teaches.

Jesus could not be any clearer. He says eternal punishment. But just use logic. God is impartial Acts 10:34. Hence God must give those who reject him the ability to reject him freely and live with their decision. If rejection = annihilation, that is not really free will is it? Accept me or die. Not much free will there, duh? :p.

One thing is crystal clear....God does not make mistakes....if we go to hell our intention to reject Him is crystal clear / absolutely no hope for us ever accepting Him...we will NEVER go to heaven. Unless God over rides free will. But God can't, as He is impartial. Partiality does not exist in Him. So much becomes obvious just by applying the definitions of God from scripture.

Suffering in hell has to be seen as a separate punishment / issue. The fallen angels are all currently in eternal punishment of banishment but not yet 'suffering'. God is just = a murderer will get 50 years in the hole. A thief 10. A rapist 40. The devil 1000.

Heck, God may even reduce that.

That's one issue that's always brought up. Salvation built on fear is like a house built on sand. It has a weak foundation that won't last.

Salvation can't be built on fear but it is certainly a contributing factor. You, Mitspa and I can save nobody. We can only help toil the soil. God either uses our contribution or He doesn't. Jesus saves. The Holy Spirit gives us a revelation of Jesus that makes us a Christian 1 Cor 12:3.

Nuns with canes and all my friends telling me I was going to hell...certainly contributed to me thinking more about God and Jesus.

The worst is if someone lies to us or says nothing.
 
Jesus could not be any clearer. He says eternal punishment. But just use logic. God is impartial Acts 10:34. Hence God must give those who reject him the ability to reject him freely and live with their decision. If rejection = annihilation, that is not really free will is it? Accept me or die. Not much free will there, duh? :p.

One thing is crystal clear....God does not make mistakes....if we go to hell our intention to reject Him is crystal clear / absolutely no hope for us ever accepting Him...we will NEVER go to heaven. Unless God over rides free will. But God can't, as He is impartial. Partiality does not exist in Him. So much becomes obvious just by applying the definitions of God.

Suffering in hell has to be seen as a separate punishment / issue. The fallen angels are all currently in eternal punishment of banishment but not yet 'suffering'. God is just = a murderer will get 50 years in the hole. A thief 10. A rapist 40. The devil 1000.

Heck, God may even reduce that.



Salvation can't be built on fear but it is certainly a contributing factor. You, Mitspa and I can save nobody. We can only help toil the soil. God either uses our contribution or He doesn't. Jesus saves. The Holy Spirit gives us a revelation of Jesus that makes us a Christian 1 Cor 12:3.

Nuns with canes and all my friends telling me I was going to hell...certainly contributed to me thinking more about God and Jesus.

The worst is if someone lies to us or says nothing.
How is "accept me or be tortured for eternity" any better than death?

I agree that the Bible teaches there is no way to enter heaven after being sent to hell.

I don't understand exactly what you mean about suffering. Could you elaborate a bit more? Based on what you're saying it sounds like you would agree with Annihilationism. I'm probably just reading it wrong.

I have never been a fan of all the preaching on hell. We should definitely be talking about it but standing on a corner yelling at every passerby that they will rot it hell if they don't repent generally just pushes people away.

Thanks for the good post!
 
Jesus described Hades when speaking of the Rich Man and Abraham, NOT hell. Check the greek. Gehenna is Hell. Hades is Sheol.

I have already clearly addressed Matthew 25:46 multiple times. You keep repeating the same argument I have already refuted.

I have heard the argument before. After presenting all this evidence and your still not convinced is very troubling

Gehenna is refereed to as outter darkness, lake of fire...... Furnace of fire, Hell, what you call not hell is cast into Gehenna.

What difference does it make? Fire and torment is fire and torment and that rich man was not doing so well.

You want to play with simple to understand concepts, pulling Greek and Hebrew to confuse things, then fine. 12 verses with the Word Gehenna, and that removes eternal punishment, and discards what Jesus said, what Paul said? REally?

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
(Mar 9:43)

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
(Mat 5:29)

Since we are destroyed in Hell, Jesus must have been confused about making us concerned about entering into Hell.

However it all ends the Same Ken....................

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:10-11)

Eis Aion, Aion.............. Forever Ken.......... Hell, Hades, Sheol, Lake of fire. Everlasting punishment is just that.

Now you would have to say Rev is made up, some parable, or spiritual idea that is not real, just some idea.

To remove eternal punishment, you have to discard the word at some point.

Some may do it a lot sooner than you, but doing that at all is not going to end well Ken and you do have to give an account for what you tell others.

Mat 25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

However, you still have to believe Jesus was wrong, as if there is no eternal punishment, then there is no eternal life.

 
I have heard the argument before. After presenting all this evidence and your still not convinced is very troubling

Gehenna is refereed to as outter darkness, lake of fire...... Furnace of fire, Hell, what you call not hell is cast into Gehenna.

What difference does it make? Fire and torment is fire and torment and that rich man was not doing so well.

You want to play with simple to understand concepts, pulling Greek and Hebrew to confuse things, then fine. 12 verses with the Word Gehenna, and that removes eternal punishment, and discards what Jesus said, what Paul said? REally?

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
(Mar 9:43)

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
(Mat 5:29)

Since we are destroyed in Hell, Jesus must have been confused about making us concerned about entering into Hell.

However it all ends the Same Ken....................

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:10-11)

Eis Aion, Aion.............. Forever Ken.......... Hell, Hades, Sheol, Lake of fire. Everlasting punishment is just that.

Now you would have to say Rev is made up, some parable, or spiritual idea that is not real, just some idea.

To remove eternal punishment, you have to discard the word at some point.

Some may do it a lot sooner than you, but doing that at all is not going to end well Ken and you do have to give an account for what you tell others.

Mat 25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

However, you still have to believe Jesus was wrong, as if there is no eternal punishment, then there is no eternal life.


I believe these points have already been addressed in posts #11, #22 & #28. We are not going to make any progress in this discussion unless you demonstrate why you believe the points in those posts are wrong. Stating the same arguments again and again without demonstrating your understanding of the counter points made is not progressing this thread.
 
Wow. There is so much to address. I can understand everyone's frustration here. The conversation is going in a lot of different directions. Let me address just four things.


1. I believe the Bible. The Bible is true. We must accept what the Bible says whether we like it or not. I am not trying to change the Bible. The Bible is what changed me. All of my arguments come straight from the Bible. I have never once claimed that annihilationism is easier to believe, or more merciful, or more loving. It is none of those things. It is the absolute worst punishment imaginable. Annihilationism is not the easier belief. It is hard to disbelieve centuries of church doctrine. It is hard to preach a minority view and suffer the insults of Christian brothers and sisters. It is hard to change one's own mind. But church doctrine is not my authority. Christian brothers and sisters are not my authority. My own mind is not my authority. The Bible is my authority.


2. I affirm eternal punishment. The punishment of the unsaved is of eternal consequence. I do not disagree with Jesus. I am not calling Him a liar. When Jesus says we should fear God, who can destroy our soul, I believe Him. The excruciatingly painful destruction of a person's resurrection body and soul in the lake of fire is a terrible and fearful thing. There will be sorrow and weeping. There will be angry gnashing of teeth. There will be great torment and suffering. And when the destruction of the lost is complete, it will be final. It will stand finished for all eternity. There is no second chance. There is no longer any hope, not even false hope that those in hell might someday be released. Destruction of the soul is an eternal punishment. And there is nothing worse than that.


3. Sheol is not the same as hell. In the OT, both the righteous dead (Genesis 37:35) and the unrighteous dead (Proverbs 9:18) go to sheol. It is a place of torment for the unrighteous, and a place of rest for the righteous. In the septuagint (the ancient greek translation of the hebrew scriptures), the hebrew word sheol is translated into greek as hades. And in Acts 2:27, Peter quotes Psalm 16, which in hebrew uses the word sheol. But in greek, Peter uses the word hades to quote Psalm 16. This is proof positive from the Bible itself that sheol and hades are just different hebrew and greek words for the same thing.

Hades/Sheol is NOT hell/gehenna/lake of fire. In fact, hades gets destroyed in the lake of fire, the second death. Therefore they cannot be the same place.

Revelation 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Obviously the dead DO leave hades. Hades gives them up for judgement, both the righteous and the unrighteous. And then hades is destroyed. Any torment that happens in hades is NOT eternal. So when Jesus talks about hades, he is NOT talking about hell, NOT talking about eternal torment. He is talking about sheol, a temporary place. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is not set in a permanent hell. It is set in a temporary hades.


4. God offers all people a choice: Life or death. When Jesus uses words like death, destruction, perish... are they hyperbole? Allegory? When Paul uses the same words, are they just expressions or euphemisms? When James and Peter use them, do we not take them literally? Should we go to the greek dictionaries and find secondary meanings to support our pet doctrines? No.

The following are clear didactic New Testament teachings that present the choice of eternal life or eternal death. I have listed many, but there are many more. Please take a look at these passages, acknowledge that they are clear didactic teachings, and then use them to interpret the parables, prophecies, and visionary passages that seem to support eternal conscious torment. Don't get it backwards. This is a sound interpretive principle. You really should not interpret ALL of the following verses just to fit Matthew 25:41, 46, Revelation 14:11, and Revelation 20:10 (although you may find yourself doing exactly that, even as you are reading the list below). Please read these verses, give each one careful attention, and accept the literal truth of what these verses plainly teach. THEN consider the parable of Matthew 25 and the vision of Revelation in light of them.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Matthew 10:28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 18:14
14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 9:22
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Galatians 6:8
8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Philippians 1:28
28 without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Hebrews 10:39
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

James 4:12
12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

James 5:20
20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

2 Peter 3:7
7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
 
Quick reply. I have a funeral service to do this evening...

Isaiah 34 deals with the destruction of Edom. It is a prophetic vision of what will happen when Edom is destroyed.

8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. 9 And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. 10 Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.

This vision of the fire being unquenchable and the smoke rising forever is a metaphor. Edom was destroyed long ago, and the smoke no longer rises. This visionary language is identical to the visionary language in Revelation. So since the smoke mentioned in Isaiah is not literally rising to this day, it is safe to conclude that the smoke in Revelation is not meant to be understood literally either.

The symbolic language of Isaiah represents the total and final destruction of Edom. The symbolic language of Revelation represents the total and final destruction of the lost.

More tonight...
This is just your opinion..you cannot limit the intention of a scripture by saying its a metaphor...the truth is that this scripture represents a eternal judgment even if its in a symbolic way. I don't trust folks who play games with the Word of God. You are doing harm to your own testimony and witness on this forum by being so willing to dismiss the clear intentions of the scriptures.

To just dismiss the context of Isa 34 and say "oh it don't matter" because that was Edom and it was a "metaphor" Is just the error of mans religion trying to "make" the scriptures say what they desire the scriptures to say. Now again this issue is of no great importance to me, but that some would be led astray by this sort of deceitfulness in the Word is a matter of concern and I will take the time to utterly defeat this sort of nonsense if I see it continue?

Isa 34:1 ¶ Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9 ¶ And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
 
Last edited:
Yup. Good question.

I consider myself as literalist btw....
I am not a "selective" literalist.. I think each scripture must be looked at in its context..some scripture is clearly to be taken in its most literal sense...some scripture is clearly symbolic...some scripture must we balanced with other scripture that speaks to the same issue.. The whole counsel of the scriptures must be sought on any given issue.. Line upon line and percept upon precept...here a little there a little... The scriptures are as those two flaming swords that guard the way back to the Tree of Life..the flesh of man cannot pass through and only the pure of heart will be allowed to pass... Those who mishandle the Word of Life according to their own will and intentions will never see the mystery that is hidden beyond the veil of the flesh.
 
Let me add some highlights of my own:

Isa 34:1 ¶ Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9 ¶ And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.


The context is death and destruction, slaughter and corpses (carcasses). It is not about eternal conscious torment. It is about the destruction of Edom (Idumea), a historical event. It is a fulfilled prophecy, which affirms the truth of scripture. But even if it is also describing eternal judgement as you claim, it is describing that judgement as death and destruction, NOT as eternal conscious torment. So even granting you that this may also be about eternal judgement, it still supports the annihilationist view. And so in Isaiah we see obvious annihilation coupled with unquenchable fire and smoke rising forever, just as we also see in Revelation.

To just dismiss the context of Isa 34 and say "oh it don't matter" because that was Edom and it was a "metaphor" Is just the error of mans religion trying to "make" the scriptures say what they desire the scriptures to say...

This passage is FULL of metaphor. The "sword of the LORD" is a metaphor. "Mountains melted by blood" is a metaphor. Metaphors are very good things. They are nothing to be afraid of or to battle against. Metaphors absolutely matter. Because everything in scripture matters. I am not dismissing anything.

...I don't trust folks who play games with the Word of God. You are doing harm to your own testimony and witness on this forum by being so willing to dismiss the clear intentions of the scriptures.

I'm sorry you feel that way. But personal attacks do not further the discussion. I have tried my best to represent the scriptures honestly and faithfully. I can do no more than that.
 
Last edited:
I have made no personal attacks.. and of course these passages are full of metaphors, but one cannot just dismiss them and their intention as you have tried to do. That was my point.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top