Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Huntingteckel, Apr 24, 2014.

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  1. Hey guys, I wanted to discuss Annihilationism.

    To be clear, I’m not trying to start any argument in this thread. This is a topic that has interested me because when I started to read my Bible I was having trouble understanding where exactly eternal conscious torment was taken from. So, I ended up researching it and found that there was such a belief as Annihilationsim. Now, I’m not saying that I believe this, but I do feel like there is a fair biblical basis for it. What do you guys think?
    A263149 and Ken Bussell say Amen and like this.
  2. There is ZERO biblical bases for this belief.
    Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    You can't be punished if your not conscience.

    Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    Jesus gives us insight into hell and the gulf that separated Gods people and those that did not obey the prophets.

    Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

    The fire in Hell never stops, it can not be quenched.

    Jesus went to hell to preach to the spirits in prison. If Jesus did not go to hell, then all sin was not laid on him and death and hell were not defeated for us.
    Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    No need for chains if spirits are not conscience in hell.

    In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    (2Th 1:8-9)

    To be in Hell is complete separation from the Lord and punishment everlasting.

    What the confused, stupid and demon controlled people say:
    They take the simple concept seen clearly in scripture and then get into the Greek and twist it to their own ignorance.

    They say that the Word Eternal...... Aionious does not really mean eternal but it's a Greek Adjective from the root Aion. Aion has a start age and an ending age, however the Adjective Aionious does not. The Word means to continue forever unless defined in the Article. That is what a Greek Adjective is, it can be by itself or change from the article.

    Aionious punishment means just that........ Punishment that never ends.

    However we have another Greek expression in Revelation. Eis Aion, Aion.

    And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: (Eis, Aion, Aion) and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    (Rev 14:11)

    Eis, Aion, Aion means age on top of age on top of age forever.

    If there is no eternal punishment, then there is no such thing as Eternal life either. People that don't believe in eternal punishment can't believe in eternal life and are lost. It's the SAME GREEK WORD!!!!

    Beware of the devils people, their lies and twisting and half truths are easy to spot.
  3. Are we even allowed to discuss this here? We may need a moderator ruling on this. (Not on whether its true or not but on whether it should be allowed to be discussed).
  4. Yeah, it's a shame that we can't have a civil discussion on here. I'm all about being passionate but passion is no reason to be insulting.

    Michael, I'm going to reply to your post tomorrow. It's 4am here and I can't sleep and its a pain in the backside to do long posts on the phone.
  5. #5 Mitspa, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
    Are you joking? We have atheist on this forum doing all they can to destroy the faith of the members...and we should be worried about discussing this issue? Come on!
  6. Agreed, this is a none issue. A fool says there is no God, or hell made for the devil and his angels. Devils are not confused about there not being a hell.

    I don't know about some passion or insulting. I have done this No hell thing for years with many confused others. They use things from the OT about the soul dies and bla, bla , bla they say Jesus lied about what Abraham said, making Jesus a liar and misquoting someone He respected. They talk about that trash pile that was around in the valley of hinnom or something like that, but the fire Jesus talked about was never quenched. It's all garbage, and no reason to give these folks the time of day.

    As I said, if a person does not believe in eternal punishment, then they can't be saved because they don't believe on eternal life either.

    Where is the Messiah likes this.
  7. Jesus taught more on hell than heaven for me to believe what little He said about I need to accept the many things He said about hell.
  8. Matthew 5:26
    That could easily be seen as the finality of the punishment rather than literal. And the verse itself says "but the righteous into eternal life." That would be in contrast to what the wicked would be getting. Although I do admit that the way I'm saying it is kind of weak.

    Luke 16:23
    The story of Lazarus is a parable. Sure, it's possible that he'll is literally like it's said, but that generally isn't the way parables work. They are generally fictional stories told to teach a lesson.

    Mark 9:43
    It's the fire that is never quenched. That is what the verse says so that means nothing about eternal Torment.

    2 Th 1:8-9
    Again,easily this could be about the finality of the punishment. Destruction is the process of destroying. A means to an end.

    Annihilationists believe in eternal life, Michael. They believe it's a gift from God given to those that believe in His Son.

    *edit- It's a pain to add verses on my phone, so now I'm on my computer*

    (Mat 19:29 ESV) And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.

    What happens if you don't leave worldly things behind and follow Him? You don't get eternal life.
  9. Mat 10:28 ESV
    (28) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Why say that God can destroy a soul if He doesn't?

    (Joh 3:16 ESV) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    Eternal life is the gift of salvation.

    (Joh 3:36 ESV) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

    This could be taken either way, but I honestly feel that it's saying that you won't see eternal life and instead will be destroyed by God's wrath.

    Joh 4:13-14 ESV
    (13) Jesus said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again,
    (14) but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

    Again, eternal life is given through salvation.

    Joh 6:27 ESV
    (27) Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."

    Again, eternal life is given through salvation.

    Joh 6:40 ESV
    (40) For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

    Again, eternal life is given through salvation.

    Joh 6:47 ESV
    (47) Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

    Joh 6:54 ESV
    (54) Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

    Joh 10:28 ESV
    (28) I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
  10. I don't believe all universalists are going to hell and they are the ones known to hold to this doctrine although others do as well, such as seventh day adventists if I recall correctly.

    Also the argument that if you dont believe in eternal torment you dont believe in eternal life either is not true. It is true they are the same greek word "aion" for eternal, and some universalists acknowledge this but cite different verses for eternal life. Verses that use a different greek word.

    Universalists believe in the same Jesus, they believe that salvation is through Christ's sacrifice alone. I have friends who are universalists and I don't hate them. They are not horrible people. They are not out to deceive the world. They are actually fairly normal people. However universalists believe that everyone is saved through Christ eventually, a view that I feel is a bit misguided.

    There is a disturbing trend on online christian forums and chats to go to extremes and say "anyone who doesn't agree with me is hell bound". I think those kind of statements stifle discussion.
    Huntingteckel likes this.
  11. #11 Ken Bussell, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
    I am an evangelical, Jesus loving, Bible believing, Christian pastor. I did a comprehensive sermon on the subject, an exhaustive review of all the scriptural evidence, both Old and New Testament. It's called "The Case for Conditionalism." Here is a link:

    Simply put, the handful of proof texts for Eternal Conscious Torment come from parables, prophecies, and apocalyptic visions. The multitude of didactic teaching passages are overwhelmingly clear that the righteous in Christ shall receive eternal life, and the wicked shall perish. If you study the whole Bible on the subject, you will see for yourself that the evidence for conditionalism far outweighs the evidence for ECT.
    Andrew Manuel and Huntingteckel say Amen and like this.
  12. Universalism and conditionalism are completely different. Conditionalism is NOT universalism. On conditionalism, the unsaved DO go to hell. And they are destroyed there.
  13. Ken, thanks for the post, I'll have to watch it tonight sense I'm about to leave my house.

    A263149, I don't understand all the self righteous behavior either. Just because a verse is generally interpreted a certain way doesn't make it correct. I'm always willing to look at verses a different way. If we don't then we are always going to be stuck in bigotry.
    Ken Bussell likes this.
  14. Conditionalism affirms the reality of hell. And the punishment of hell is eternal in exactly the same way that the gift of life is eternal. The punishment, once given, can never be undone, just as the gift, once given, can never be undone.
  15. What different Greek Word would that be? You need to study before posting. Aion is translated World, Age, it was translated (Wrongly) eternal 2 times in the KJV. Neither scripture talking about Eternal life.

    Aion was translated to also mean One age that continues, or a person for that time will be during that whole time. "for Ever) Eis Aion.

    Aion can also be used to mean non stop... forever and ever Eis, Aion, Aion.

    you need to do some more study before publicly saying what I said is not true, you need to pay attention and learn.

    Aionous Zoe....... Eternal life in 30 some scriptures.

    This is where you are in great error saying that those who do not believe in eternal hell do not believe in Eternal life. It means you also believe Jesus is wrong, and that is not a position i would suggest keeping.

    And these shall go away into everlasting (Aionous) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (Aionous).

    (Mat 25:46)

    If one is eternal and forever, then the other is eternal and forever. Those that twist things to their own hurt pick and choose what they want to believe from the word of God. It don't end well to do so.

    Because this topic is beat to death and have studied it for years, I will field only those responses that come full of pride and worldly knowledge. There are wolves that wish to convince the body of Christ there is no eternal hell. Jesus told of Abraham of being in such a place and even described it for us. yet the foolish say it was a Jewish parable, making Jesus out to be a slanderer and liar having quoted something Abraham actually said, and unlike all other parables, Jesus gave an exact location and used real names. Something the foolish can not see or compare.

    Huntingteckel, We have a soul, Body and a spirit. The soul part gets destroyed, and hell does have a representation of a body ask Jesus described. The Greek word Destroyed gives an idea of perishing, to be marred to be harmed. It was also translated lost 13 times.
    So, by translation issue, Jesus is not talking about being completly wiped out by compareing other scriptures and by the Greek Word

    apollumi Destroy...............
    From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

    I'll be happy to answer your questions of course. We have to watch translations though as the Greek does not always have a super English equivalent,.
  16. That is quite interesting. Thanks for sharing that. No one could accuse you of using no scriptures, you certainly used quite a few.

    I found what you said about Gehenna particularly interesting as I think that even ties in with some verses I discovered awhile back about the location of the lake of fire.
  17. Michael, are you calling me a wolf?
  18. Where did I say that at? Go back, Re-read again, Read what I said about the Greek Words and read the part that I am more than happy to answer your questions but will watch the ignorant who try to creep in to convince others that hell is not eternal punishment.

    So, no.......................... Read carefully, I never said anything about you being a wolf.

  19. So, if I believe in Annihilationism and teach others about it then I'm a wolf?
    And I read your whole post. You act like that is the only argument for it. I still haven't seen you give your argument for eternal conscious Torment.
  20. How many scriptures did I post above about eternal torment and punishment? What?

    What me to go back and copy and past them all again for you?

    This is where you are in great error saying that those who do not believe in eternal hell do not believe in Eternal life. It means you also believe Jesus is wrong, and that is not a position i would suggest keeping.

    And these shall go away into everlasting (Aionous) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (Aionous).
    (Mat 25:46)

    if there is eternal life, then there is also eternal punishment. If you want to twist scripture and be confused and make Jesus out to be someone that has no idea what he was talking about, be my guest.

    Here is my other post you just missed somehow.

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