Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by geralduk, Aug 31, 2015.
Me, me, me!
Actually in Genesis 1:1 there is not .Which is why it should not be heavenS .
It cannot be both heaven and heavens.
As I said in my first post on this subject the scripture is laid out thus .
In the beginning God created the HEAVEN and the EARTH .
gen 1:2 and the EARTH was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep..
From verse two onwards ALL the scriptures to the end of the chapter are speaking about the EARTH .
The Firmament between the waters that are above it and the waters below it that is called heaven is clearly not the same HEAVEN as in Gen 1:1.
Thus you have the SKY as we call it called heaven . and what we now call space is where the sun and moon are and "he made the stars also " That also is in the same context of the EARTH.
Thus we have two HEAVENS of earth so to speak and that HEAVEN where Gods throne is and all the host of heaven .
Thy will be done on earth as it is in sky or space is absurd .
Gods will is done in HEAVEN but not as it were on earth . For if it was why do we pray that it will be?
In truth death reigns on earth and did till Jesus rose from the dead . But that victory has yet to be manifested in all the earth .Though it is or should be in the lives of Gods children who do Gods will or seek to do so on earth as it is in heaven.
In a nit shell then when God created the HEAVEN and the EARTH .
then there is the visible and the invisible .The carnal and the spiritual. The flesh and the spirit .
For if God created all things by your reckoning or rather argument ,there is not heaven or spiritual
I do not think so . for reasons stated .
@Fish Catcher Jim
Don't you just love this:-
'"... ... For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways," saith the LORD.
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven,
and returneth not thither,
but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud,
that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. ... ... "'
Heavens and heaven in Genesis 1:1 are interchangeable. God created all of the heavens of the universe.
God is a God of order. and the order of things was that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
It was NOT heaven that was in darkness but the earth .and fr0m verse 2 onwards it is God dealing with the "earth" Not heaven.
You may ask why then was the earth in darkness and not that heaven? If it is all one and the same .
They are not interchangeable at all then.
For the heaven and the earth is not the same heavens of what came later in his working of the EARTH.
In the beginning God created the HEAVEN and the EARTH.
"and the EARTH was without form and void............."
You are right in part that God created all things both visible and invisible.
But then words beign what they are can only be said one word at a time .
Gen 1:1 is a simple statement of fact . So too is verse two and three .
The first WORDS spoken was in relation to the EARTH not heaven. and in that regard then the order of Gods WORDS is both important and instructive .
It is not for us to swap them around or think we can change them from one thing to another .
If we do we simply cause confusion later on.
and as I pointed out earlier to suggest that "In the be ginning God created the SKY and the EARTH as a reasonable rendition of gen 1:1 is absurd. For reasons already stated.
Genesis 1:1 is a synopsis...God created the heaven(s) and the earth. In other words, all the expanse of outer space---all stars and planets and moons, etc---and earth in particular.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Spiritual Heaven existed before all of this. These are all the same word referring to what was not Earth.
That is simply an assertion . With no argument to back it up.
"man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God"
it is therefore not abusing scripture to say that words that are expressions of thought express what is already complete in us . Yet to express that thought ,idea or concept the words we use to express it need to be in the right order and framed in such a way as to convey accurately that thought.
I cannot nor do believe that God is as loose with His words as we and man is often with his.
If our life depends on every word that cometh forth from his mouth .You can be sure that from the very first word he spoke "let there be light" Each word was in its right order and expressed in accordance with that which was in His mind and heart.
I fear that I might seem to reduce God to man.
But as it si God who uses the expression of words that come out of His mouth , and uses ears to show He hears and eyes to show he sees .Then I pray that I may be forgiven to say so badly what is of so vital importance .
I do not accept then at all that Gen 1:1 is a "synopsis" For the simple reason that "all scripture is inspired by God Himself and is not of mans own devising.
Thus it is not either heavens or heaven and it does not matter which .For they are different and express two very different things .
I kings 12 8:27
But will God indeed dwell upon the earth? Behold the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee.........."
and Deut 10:14 again says the heaven of heavens .
By your own words you have omitted that heaven where Gods throne is and have simply mentioned only the heavens of earth sky and space where the stars are .
Where is the throne of God in space? or in heaven?
and the heavens which you do mention were created AFTER verse 1:1 not in verse 1.
Ill repat again then. In the beginning God created the HEAVEN and the earth . (full stop)
And the earth was without form and void..........
I would draw your attention to Jeremiah 4:23.
"I beheld the EARTH and lo it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light ..."
There it speaks of Judgement .
HEAVEN is where Gods throne is and his throne is established forever , and "there is no need of sun or moon for God is the light thereof"
It was and is the EARTH that needed /needs heavens light .
Not heaven . For it has always reigned even from the beginning .
But what sayeth the scriptures?
"They that sat in darkness have seen a great light"
All things were created by God. Both spiritual and carnal .
The heavens of earth that is the carnal heavens were all in the context of the earth. from verse 2 onwards . As you show in the list of scriptures.
The spiritual heaven was created "in the beginning when God created the heaven and the earth.
Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Here is proof that the angels were present when the universe was created. Where were the angels located? Makes sense that God's Heaven existed before Genesis 1:1. Then, Genesis 1:1 is talking about the universe's creation. The Bible is God's Word for mankind. The creation of capital "H" Heaven would not be in the Bible, as much info on things which are not of our concern is not given in the Bible.
Well, it's God's assertion.
You need to have your mind established on the original language and its meanings. There is "shâmayim, shâmeh" and then there is "ouranos", the first, used in describing the firmament, including the sky we see and outer space, and the second describing all that and also pointing to the abode of God beyond that.
God is physically outside the universe, although His presence fills the universe, but His "location" and abode is on the spiritual plane of existence.
Quibbling about words is really divisive, and the word of God says something about that.
When I laid the foundations of the EARTH.
You have but jumped to a conclusion. But as genesis is the foundation or book of beginnings of all that follows . Gen 1:1 simply states what John 1:1 elaborates on.
ALL things were created by God . The Bible is a revelation of God above and apart from anything else.
Gen 1:1 simply states the fact that God created the heaven and the earth . That heaven being the creation of Gods throne and all the host of heaven. It is also that heaven where Lucifer was cast out of heaven and down to the earth .
I still need to repeat it . That Gen 1:2 and onward is ONLY speaking about the EARTH . and says nothing more about that heaven of verse 1 till ?
They are of concern to us for in the last book this heaven is mentioned .But in the first book it is not the primary message that the EARTH needed heavens light and God always brings light before he does a work.
The Bible is Gods word for all of creation . It is Gods testimony and testament as to what is Gods and what he has given to man .
That though man was created a "little ,lower than the angels" ( that is earth and they in heaven) God will raise him up above them IN Christ .
The truth divides as error often joins .
I do not hold to the idea that you needs must know the original langauge to understand scripture for reasons already stated .
That road leads to that other error where you need to eb qualified of man to read and understand the scriptures.That error was rejected at the reformation.
Again though you do not state what Hebrew word IS used in Gen 1:1 but give any number of Hebrew words that MIGHT BE USED.
My mind as any child of God is to be stayed on God not on a langauge.
I again point out to you that the firmiment that he called "heaven " in verse 8 is well AFTER gen 1:1 and is clearly another heaven than the first one .On the simple grounds that in the ebginnign God created the HEAVEN and the EARTH and it was the EARTH that was in darkness not that heaven.
and thus the firmement is of the EARTH.
I am not quibbling about words at all . Jesus said not one jot ot tittle was not unimportant and they are simple little MARKS in the Hebrew language that denotes various things.
If then a tittle is important how much a WORD?
Did not the serpent add one simple word to the truth and changed the truth into a lie?
So for the sake of clarity then if only to correct what you see is my error .Should you not then state WHAT Hebrew word is used in Genesis 1:1 and for that matter in Gen 1:8 and for good measure what hebrew word is used in "Thy will be done on earth a sit is in heaven"
Then we may all judge the matter with the langauge you say we all need.
Not. Error is a divisive element against the truth of God's word.
If you've not consulted the Hebrew, then you are merely going by your human, and often shortsighted understanding of the English, by comparison to the Hebrew.
'Now we have received,
not the spirit of the world,
but the spirit which is of God;
that we might know
the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak,
not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;
comparing spiritual things with spiritual.'
(1 Cor. 2:12,13)
b.rashith bra aleim ath e.shmim u.ath e.artz
in beginning He-created Elohim >> the. heavens and. >> the.earth
u,iqra aleim l.rqio shmim u. iei -orb u.iei
and.He-is-calling Elohim to.the. atmosphere heavens and.he-is-becoming evening and.he-is-becoming
-bqr ium shni
morning day second
elthetO hE basileia sou genEthEtO to thelEma sou
LET-BE-COMING THE KINGdom OF-YOU LET-BE-BEING-BECOME THE WILL OF-YOU
hOs en ouranO kai epi tEs gEs
AS IN heaven AND ON THE LAND
Genesis 1:1: The marginal notes in my Bible, says concerning the words, 'the heavens and the earth' (quote):-
* (with Heb. particle 'eth before each, emphasizing the article 'the', and thus distinguishing both from 2:1. 'Heavens' in Heb. always in plural. '
* In the marginal notes of Deut. 4:26, which the notes concerning Gen. 1:1 refers me to, it says concerning the words 'heaven and earth', - * always plural and with Heb. particle 'eth, except in Gen. 2:1.
u.iklu e.shmim u.e.artz u.kl -tzba.m
and.they-are-being-finished the.heavens and.the.earth and.all-of host-of.them
* I hope this helps a little.
* At least from this the different Hebrew and Greek words used can be seen: and the articles noted; and usage by the Holy Spirit compared. (Concordances can also be referred to of course, to find their definitions).
* I do not know either Hebrew or Greek grammar, and unfortunately have forgotten much that I learned at school concerning English grammar. However, if we compare Scripture with Scripture, we will be able to see how the Holy Spirit uses the words in question, which is what matters most to us here, don't you think?
Praise God! That God is not hindered by our ability or lack of it, He will make His meaning clear to a willing mind and heart which wants to know and acknowledge Him, and rejoices in His Truth.
In Christ Jesus
I actually said first that the truth divides as Jesus said I came not to bring peace but a sword.
Then I said that error often joins people .
It is you that says you understand the Hebrew but after a number of requests yous till have not supplied the Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:1 so that we may compare like with like . as also the other two instances as in Gen 1:8 where the firmemant is called heaven as well . as also Thy will be done on earth a sit si in heaven.
You did give a number of Hebrew words that "MAY " be used .But have not as yet quoted what word is actually used.
Your perception then on my lack of understanding of Hebrew is therefore misplaced at best . As you who say you do understand Hebrew and I am in error do not even enlighten me as to the word used!
You then suggest my "shortsighted understanding of English" is at fault . I have no wish to reduce this to subjective opinions or indeed asserted assertions .
So I will leave you with my arguments as to why I think it is Heaven and why it is right as also my answers to your objections such as they are to it. To neither have you replied or answered.
English is my mother tounge. Hebrew is not. I would argue that if Hebrew is not yours or anothers mother tounge thier understanding can actually be not as good as they think it is .
But as I said before Saul of Tarsus had Hebrew as his mother tounge and he still did not understand the scriptures. So I have no confidence in any one who understands Hebrew and makes his understanding of that language the foundation of his 'understanding'! "Lean not upon your own understanding and trust the Lord " What Lord? If not Him who leads us into all truth even as it did of Saul.
A man who learns Hebrew is oft led to lean upon his understanding rathert than be led by HIM the Spirit of truth.
I make no claim to infallibility though some foolishly do . But I have laid out my arguments so all may follow them. I have done so to prove as it were the truth of what I say .
You suggest that all that is irelivent as I do not know Hebrew.
I would counter that with the simple fact that with all of somes much vaunted "better understanding" they have got such a simple thing wrong. and that if they were right but can only come up with the boast they understand Hebrew but canno0t explain in English by biblical argument how they are right n and prove it so .Then I will and do dismiss their assertion for what it truly is .
If they were indeed right then they or you should be able to prove they are so by an argument that can be followed .I would draw your atention to the principle as laid out in Hebrews where Paul argues his case as to Jesus Being the fullfilment of Old testement prophecy .Using those scriptures that are relevent to the subject in hand.
But to suggest I blindly follow them or anybody because they know Hebrew (they say) and I do not . Is folly both for me and for anybody else . For it will be" the blind leading the blind and both will fall into the ditch"