Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by geralduk, Aug 31, 2015.

  1. Nope. It does not.

    The scriptures say nothing of the first or second heaven only the word third. Therefore if we accept first and second without mentioning, there indeed could be hundreds of heavens (levels?), we just do not know.
  2. None taken . As I said this is not about me or about some subjective opinion I have made all on my lonesome .
    I dont know what else I can say ,other than what I have said already.

    What you sat is right in that the pattern is of the heaven that is above the earthly heavens .
    When God said I will make a new heavens and a new earth . He is talking about the 'earthly ' heavens .
    Where the sun and the moon are effected and a third of the stars will fall from the sky and he will roll up our heaven or sky like a garment . etc.
    The earth will rock or stagger like a"drunken man" that earth that was destroyed in the flood was then a new one that next will be destroyed by fire .
    The foundations of the earth are established forever . B ut what is built on them is or has been changed or will be twice .The new heavens and earth will be where a baby will be a 100 years old and a lion will eat grass like an ox .
    Thy throne is established forever .
    and His will that is done in heaven will be done on earth .
    in Christ
    Complete likes this.
  3. Thanks I did not think so .

    The first heaven is mentioned in Gen1:1 .
    The second heaven is mentioned in Gen 1:8 concerning the firmiment .
    The third heaven is indirectly mentioned when he "made the stars also " and placed the sun and moon in their orbits for times and seasons etc . Three heavens .
    I will speak of what I know.
    That Paul speaks of the third heaven then conforms to those three.
    I know of no other .

    I dont know that there can be levels (?) or hundfreds of heavens other wise .
    Though there are different forms of condemnations and one would suppose different sorts of blessings ?
    It says in Job that when the sons of God came into the presence of God the devil was there to accuse them.
    It cannot be said that he was in the holy of holies .
    and he was after all cast out of heaven.
    There are some fo gods people before the throne. Others seated around the throne .Some under the ;alter etc.
    I dont know all that means .But in that each represents a geographical place is evident.
    Jesus spoke about a feast and not to go to the high places but to the lowest and when you are asked to go higher it is an honour to you but if you take for yourself a high place and are asked to move further down it is a shame to you .
    In that regard then as a feast and a great table or else a place of a great gathering .Some are nearer to the king than others.
    The joy all have in the presence of the Lord and all are washed in the blood of the lamb.
    But the joy and blessing of some is also due to their 'nearness' to the Lord geographically.
    "They who suffer with him shall also reign with him."
    It follows then that they who are not willing to suffer with him will not then reign with him.Or have as it were cities to rule over .
    It should be noted however that as the devil is under the Lords feet . That even the little toe is master .
    and the oil that flowed from Arrons beard flows down his whole body so that every part is annointed as well.
    But I am not so much concerned with the nature of heaven .Though I fear we have too low opinion of it .
    But that it too was created and was first introduced in Gen 1:1.

    in Christ
  4. you know now that you have said this I remember reading something about that 20 some years ago. Now what did I doo with that reading. lol
  5. When scripture is referring to the heaven that is God's literal dwelling place, the word ouranos is used. That is not in . God has never taught us that He created His own throne room. That is for us to discover one fine day. The bible account of creation is limited to our physical universe.
    God has not taught us that He created His own abode. Genesis is the account for man to know that all the physical universe is created by Him, and He has said that the angelic realm is also created. Other than that, we do not know, and will not know until we see Him and His glorious City, and are introduced to its glorious wonders, including our personal abodes---for which a building program is now ongoing...I do believe.
  6. 'And He said, "Go forth,
    and stand upon the mount
    before the LORD."

    And, behold, the LORD passed by,
    and a great and strong wind rent the mountains,
    and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD;
    - but the LORD was not in the wind:

    and after the wind an earthquake;
    - but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
    And after the earthquake a fire;
    - but the LORD was not in the fire:
    and after the fire a still small voice.
    And it was so,
    when Elijah heard it,
    that he wrapped his face in his mantle,
    and went out,
    and stood in the entering in of the cave.
    And, behold, there came a voice unto him,
    and said,
    "What doest thou here, Elijah?"

    (1 Kings 19:11-13)

    'My sheep hear my voice,
    and I know them,
    and they follow me:'
    And I give unto them eternal life;
    and they shall never perish,
    neither shall any man
    pluck them out of My Hand.'

    (John 10:27,28)

    'Behold my servant, whom I uphold;
    mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth;
    I have put my spirit upon Him:
    he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
    - He shall not cry, nor lift up,
    nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
    A bruised reed shall He not break,
    and the smoking flax shall He not quench:
    He shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
    He shall not fail nor be discouraged,
    till He have set judgment in the earth:
    and the isles shall wait for His law.
    Thus saith God the LORD,
    He that created the heavens,
    and stretched them out;
    He that spread forth the earth,
    and that which cometh out of it;
    He that giveth breath unto the people upon it,
    and spirit to them that walk therein:
    I the LORD have called thee in righteousness,
    and will hold thine hand,
    and will keep thee,
    and give thee for a covenant of the people,
    for a light of the Gentiles;
    To open the blind eyes,
    to bring out the prisoners from the prison,
    and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
    I am the LORD:
    that is my name:
    and my glory will I not give to another,
    neither My praise to graven images.
    Behold, the former things are come to pass,
    and new things do I declare:
    before they spring forth I tell you of them.
    Sing unto the LORD a new song,
    and His praise from the end of the earth,
    ye that go down to the sea,
    and all that is therein;
    the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.'

    (Isa. 42:1-10)
  7. I do not understand your reasoning at all . If God created everything and there is nothing that was t created that was not created by him .Then as heaven and all the host of it , was also created . For before anything there ever was .There was only God .
    God who lived as it were in eternity.
    The scriptures even say that heaven could not contain Him nor dwelling place on earth .yet he chose to do so and if His throne is established forever it is because God is forever as it were. Then heaven was created even as earth was.
    In the beginning.
    The Bible account of the recreation of the earth follows verse 1.
    I go to prepare a place for you.......and in my fathers HOUSE there are many mansions.
    Not disputed at all .
    But that place and those mansions are over and above the glories of heaven that were there before man was created.
    Where was Lucifer? if not in heaven above Gods throne as a covering .
    He too was a created being (but not as man in Gods image) All the angels of God are created beings.
    "what is man that thou should consider him who God made a little lower than the angels ..."
    I do not think I can say any more on the subject save that it was established in Gen 1;1 that God created all things both in HEAVEN and EARTH.

    in Christ
  8. God was revealing in the written word that everything in the physical universe is created by Him. He has only let us know these things on a "need to know" basis. We don't need to know if God created His heavenly abode, although we have curiosity about it.

    As for OUR abode in the kingdom, that is an ongoing endeavour as the kingdom is being enlarged daily.
  9. The whole point of the Bible is to see things from Gods perspective not ours.
    If heaven was a sort of no go area why then show Daniel. Ezekial. Joh, Paul, and others who all saw into heaven and if it was for thier eyes only why then have it written.
    If the food is on the table then it is to be eaten if you will . not there for show.
    You may not need to know and it is not,you might argue critical whether you know it or not .
    But God is light and he reveals things .about the physical universe as also about the "hidden things of God"
    If only the high priest could enter the Holy of Holies but once a year into the tabernacle made with hands .
    What now when we are invited to enter boldly where only one was once allowed?
    Tell me; when Isiah saw the Lord high and lifted up and the angels of God crying Holy Holy Holy where and into what was he seeing?
    If not the most (thrice) holy place .?
    What does it mean to "know Him who is from the beginning"?
    Are we to simply sit on the beach and not take our shoes off and know the sea as it were afar off?
    or are we invited to go" a little further" and take our shoes off and find the waters up to the ankles?
    and know the sea more intimately ?
    To know Him who is from the beginning . Surely means to know Him who is the creator.
    The days are coming and are night at the door when we will and needs must know Him who is from the beginning .
    For storms are coming of such a ferocity that we need to be rooted as deep as possible in God.
    We have an anchor that keeps the soul yes. Thank God.
    But I put it to you that little children can be deceived. and are not as rooted as they can or will be as they mature.
    What sayeth the scriptures?
    In evil be as children in understanding be as men .

    How can you say we need not "know " if God created hsi abode?
    if all thing were created by him then we know or understand by faith that even heaven was created by Him.
    For God is not heaven.
    and even as the earth cannot contain him h then neither can heaven.
    Indeed is iot not written that HEAVEN is his throne and the EARTH his footstool?
    and it si the HEAVENS that declare the glory of God .
    and if there was a tabernacle made with hands then there is also a tabernacle not MADE with hands that is the true tabernacle.
    We are heaven bound if we are his. Its about time our eyes were set in that direction and not to the earth so much.

    in Christ
  10. Is heaven a "no-go area"? The bible is actually very rich in descriptions and information about the heavenly kingdom. God has not informed us, however, about the origin of His dwelling place---just that it exists in all its splendor. Genesis is about our universe's beginning, and not His spiritual environment---and soon to be our own.
  11. You seem unwilling to adress the fact (i cannot force you to) that heaven is not God .It therefore was created by God .For there is nothing in the universe or the spiritual world that was not created by God.
    he has therefore informed us the origins of that dwelling place for it too must have been created albeit not made with hands.
    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth .
    Verse two onwards is the creation if you would have it so of what you call "our universes begining"
    For I draw again to your atenttion the fact that in the beginning God created the

    HEAVEN and the EARTH

    and it was the EARTH and the earth alone that was in darkness as also if you will all of the physical universe that followed it . The "stars also" the sun and the moon .
    All that follows speaks ONLY of the EARTH . Not that heaven. of Gods dwelling place.

    I would also add that that spiritual universe has as much 'physicality' as this one but more so.
    For the things that are seen are temporal but the things that are not seen are eternal.

    There is no more I can say on the matter . if you or anybody else just keeps asserting this or that with no argument to back it up or simply deny mine by them.I have answered as much as I can .
    if you wish to justify others who have rendered " in the beginning God created "the SKY and the earth" (students bible) " for the sake of unity .I still can not say more than I have and I would rather be at a disunity with those who rendered such a bible than to deny the truth and be in A unity.
    I speak of those who so rendered it .

    in Christ
  12. God has not told us in His word that His dwelling place has an origin.
  13. Heaven is the 'dwelling place' if you will of Gods throne and all the angels etc.
    God needs no dwelling place. He says so in a number of places and that neither heaven or earth can contain him.
    Heaven then is a created place . as are then all the angels of heaven also .
    and are as much apart of creation as all the 'physical' or seen universe is .
    John chapter 1 maks it very clear that there is nothing that was not created by God
    Before ANYTHING there was only God .
    Or as John puts it in 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the Word was God .
    or as Paul put it in Hebrews 1:1 "God,..............................................."

    "All things were made by Him and without Him was anything made that was made" John 1:3

    "Heaven is my throne . and the earth is my footstool ,where is the house you build for me and where is the place of my rest?" Isiah 66:1
    A throne is a place of rest .Where power rests and a King rules from.
    Where though is the eternal resting place of God ?
    Where is the eternal resting place of the Holy Spirit?
    For when Jesus was baptised John saw the Holy Spirit descend and rest upon him in the form of a dove .
    When Noah sent out the dove the first time .It found no place of rest and returned from whence it came.
    But the second time it was sent it found a place of rest and came back with an ernest of that rest in the form of a olive leaf ,for it had found" rest for the sole of its foot "
    In the Old testament we hear of the Holy Spirit coming UPON people .But it did not remain .
    But when the Jesus came out fo the waters of baptism praying the Holy Spirit descended from heaven and rested upon him.
    The eternal resting place of the Holy Spirit is the Word of God.
    and through Him all true believers are not only begotten again by the Word of God and the Spirit of God , Jesus promised that the holy Spirit shall not only be upon you but in you and he has come to abide . Forever .
    I do not believe we yet understand what God has wrought in,by and through Jesus Christ and the inexpresible gift of himself he has given us.
    Not only then does the most high God dwell in the highest heaven but also in the humble and contrite heart that has been washed in the blood of Jesus Christ to the glory of God and in whom the Word of God abides in faith.
    For where the Word of God is there too the Spirit of God and they two agree .
    It is important then to understand that heaven was created by God even as the earth was .
    and God who wills in heaven also wills it on earth .
    It is not a different will it is the same will.
    and when a person is truly BORN again of heaven then he does but enter that eternal will of God that he had predetermined in himself before all of creation .
    For the eternal will of God was and still is that man should live and not die .
    if it had been otherwise he would have not have told Adam to eat of that tree of the knowledge of good and evil ."For in the day ye eat thereof ye shall surely die " He thus by his words revealed not only his knowledge as to what was good and what was evil.But he also revealed his eternal will that man should live and not die.
    Confirmed by Moses who in the Lords name said "I put before you life and death ,choose life".
    Confirmed in many other ways by the prophets but also by Jesus who said "the devil has come but to steal to kill and to destroy but I have come that you might have life and life and life more abundantly" "For God so loved the world that eh gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him shall NOT perish but have ever lasting............................life"
    Confirmed then by Paul who under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to a knowledge fo the truth .

    and with this I close .
    When God created man he said "let us make man in our own image " Wrapped up in that great truth is another like an unfolding rose which said "man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God .
    if every idle word we will have to give an account for ,then what is an idle word?
    If not one that does no work?
    "My word "says the Lord" shall not return unto me void ,but shall accomplish that where unto I SENT it "

    In Christ
  14. #114 Euphemia, Sep 13, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2015
    God has a literal dwelling place---heaven, which is filled with His glory and light, and where all the angelic host resides, and where the dead in Christ are.
  15. Your quote:
    "My argument (which no one has adressed at all) is a biblical argument that argues by the logic of the scriptures themsleves .
    In the beginning God created the HEAVEN and the EARTH.
    and it was ONLY the earth that was in darkness .
    Not heaven."

    In this exercise, we will assume Gen 1:1 is sky/space and the earth.

    1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.==God, Heaven and the angels exist already (Job 38:7) and here we see God creates outer space and the earth. No light has been created, so both the heaven and the earth are dark. This could also be viewed as a subject line of sorts for what is listed in the rest of the chapter. In the same way as I could say, “Tonight, I am making steak and potatoes and salad.” And then I go on to say how I create each item. One would not say that I created the steak and go on to say nothing about how later on. But I do go into detail about the potatoes and salad. No, you would expect description of the creation of the steak as well.

    1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.==Earth was covered in water and was empty with no land formation or any specific shape in general.

    1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.==God creates a mass of light, maybe a ball of energy. Previous to this, outer space was dark, thus the heaven or heavens was/were dark.

    1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.==Light is good and it is separate from darkness.

    1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.==God names light and darkness, end of first day. As far as we know, there is a blob of light in outer space.

    1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.==God puts a separation in the waters of the formless earth.

    1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.==Now there is water above and below the separation.

    1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.==God names the separation Heaven. This can only mean the sky or atmosphere, because the waters were divided above and below.

    1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.==So, under the sky or atmosphere, gravity is created, since gravity holds water where it is under the sky, and land appears. The Earth now has form.

    1:10-13 We will skip for lack of pertinence.

    1:14-18 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.==Now God takes the light and creates the sun, stars and moon in the firmament of heaven, outer space. It could be said that this firmament of heaven is the same firmament of verse 7. This would mean that there is water spread throughout the universe because the firmament separated the water above from below.

    So this can easily be understood that God’s Heaven is not spoken of in Genesis 1, and is the creation of everything we see.

    If Gen 1:1 heaven is God’s Heaven then we don’t see outer space until verse 7 and light existed before this and therefore existed outside of the physical known universe. This makes no sense to me. It makes more sense that outer space was the “canvas” for which the creation of light was placed along with the earth.

    Since God lights His Heaven, then why would He need to create light? He would be putting the cart in front of the horse, in that, outer space was not there yet to put light into. One would surmise that God would create outer space first then create light.

    Your quote:
    My argument ;which no one has addressed at all as to WHY it should be HEAVEN and not heavens is in my view odd . For it is both reasonable it does not violate biblical and sound doctrine nor contradict any other scripture .

    I think no one addresses this is because it can be either. Others are saying it can be “heavens” and that they think this is the better version of the word. (Of course it seems to always need to be said that by “they think” we are saying that they have been convinced and convicted of this by the Holy Spirit. Too many times I see a critical response of , “that’s the problem, you think, you’re using your own understanding”.)
  16. Im afraid I have said all I can or could say on the subject .Simply starting from a premise I have already argued against and suggest we start there runs counter to the scripture how can two walk together unless they agree.

    The reason why it should be heaven in English is because the meaning is clear .That it is the ehaven of Gods throne that was created and the earth . or the earthly and the spiritual.
    To suggest that God did not create it is absurd given John 1.
    Concerning light .
    There is spiritual light even as there is spiritual darkness .
    God always gives light before he starts a work.
    and again I say it was only the EARTH that was in darkness .
    Not that heaven.
    For the very heavens you wish to stick with of earth only is created AFTER gen 1:2.

    What you accuse me of you is the very thing that the translators used in their oft mistaken translations.
    People having swallowed it and leaned upon their understanding of Hebrew (flawed) simply refuse to believe what the Hebrew word can be be.
    It is not I that either wrote the Bible or translated it.
    I have found what I have found and havign come across the "student Bible " rendering of gen 1:1 as SKY and earth .
    No one has faced that one yet .
    Which by your own reasoning of heavens of chapter 1 would be a reasonable rendition.
    But it is absurd and misleading at best .
    I am faced with two Bibles purporting to be of the Holy Spirit .
    Yet one has HEAVEN and the other HEAVENS .
    Two very different concepts and presentation of truth .
    I have argued my case as to why it should be heaven,
    You and others by Hebrew (wrongly) says it can only be plural. Not true .
    But also proved by your own reasoning to be wrong for none of you acknowledge or rather confess that God created ALL things that includes angels and all of heaven .
    Indeed you also seem with the others seem to only see the earth being created .
    Here I must confess . That until I was faced with that awful 'student bible' I thought much the same as you do.
    But that awful 'bible' made me search a bit more ALL the bibles in the book shop and by all I mean all the prevailing modern versions of the Bible.
    I have also read a number of books on them by authors who challenge some grave errors in them both in denial and addition to .
    A long journey starts with the first step.
    The purpose of this post was about WORDS and the nature of them and what they can do .or dont do .How they can build and they can destroy.
    Some one took my post personally and said I was challenging their bible notation. As if we should reduce all these things to our personal likes and dislikes.
    This is not about that at all.
    Its about words "that proceedeth from the mouth of God " that gives life to all that receive them.
    I reject utterly and completely the idea that God needs a multitude of versions of the Bible.
    I cannot force or compel anybody to conform to me .Nor would I wish to .
    But do not expect me to conform to something I know to be false .
    You start answering my post by quoting me then say we should start in the very place I have already rejected .(with good reason)
    I make no claim to infallibility .
    But please , do not answer my objections by simply ignoring them .If Im wrong then show me .But you will not nor can by simply stating what you see is the truth then accusing me of leaning upon my own reasoning when you simply apply your own .

    Before absolutlely anything there was ONLY God.

    God does not need heaven he does not need the earth .
    He did however create them.
    if you ask me to fathom why . I know nothing save that He is the creator of all things and hew created all things by the council of his own will and by the Word of God.
    I draw your attention to jerimiah which I have already mentioned and no one as far as I can tell has faced that one either .
    What it all boils down to is that you and others believe that Hebrews "is always plural"
    This is not so .
    perhaps then before you can go any further you need to find that truth first .

    I have again said more than I wanted to. perhaps should have,

    It is enough and until someone adresses or 'asnwers' my post or objection .I intend to say nothing more on the matter.
    Though I will say something more about words.

    in Christ
  17. I should clarify one thing in answer to your post and I only touched upon it last.

    God always brings light before he does a work.
    Even as a man might turn the light on before he does any work.
    Until the Word of God enters the heart .God cannot start to do any good work in them.,
    "The entrance of thy word giveth light ."
    A life without God at its centre is a life without form and void and darkness fills the heart.,
    For while man was created for the light .He is by nature more a child of darkness than he is of the light .
    Even as we are by nature "children of disobedience " (Eph)

    Why there was light before the sun was formed.
    Was because there was spiritual darkness .
    John said "and the light shineth in the darkness and the darkness comprehended it not "
    The night has no comprehension thus there was more to this darkness than met the eye .
    and again I have to say it. It was only the EARTH that was in darkness not HEAVEN.and all that follows verse 2 is about the EARTH.
    It makes no sense then simply because you do not see or understand that that HEAVEN in verse one is not all about the EARTH.
    It is God establishing the fact and confirmed by many other scriptures ,some of which I have mentioned before that God created ALL things both heaven and earth and neither can; of itself contain or 'house' God .
    It is simply men that have jumped to the conclusion as they have that can only see the EARTH .
    But we are BORNagain of HEAVEN are we not?

    Then its about time we turned our eyes heavenward which is our spiritual home ..

    in Christ

Share This Page