Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by geralduk, Aug 31, 2015.

  1. Thank you for the info.

    Two things come to mind and maybe more.
    The Hebrew word in Genesis 1:1,I have heard from both Jew and gentile can be both singular and plural . You now say it is always plural. This I have to doubt. For it was translated as singular by Tyndale and others who translated the KJV . They too understood Hebrew.
    The internal argument as to why it IS singular I have already given.
    But even with what you have said , if I have understood correctly Gen 1:8 you have put HEAVENS, but all versions have it as HEAVEN.
    MATHEW 6:10 is ;it would seem altogther different but still cannot be the sky or what we call space.
    I will then keep with English. as I know it far better . For even in what you have given there is much more that begs a lot of other questions .But which are not relevent to the subject in hand.
    It does prove however that a man needs to understand Hebrew VERY well rather than simply look it up.

    I do not believe then that my argument is either fatally undermined or disproved.
    I agree with you as to the great and I would say desperate need of the Holy Spirit . I am no scholar and freely admit it . But as someone once said 'It is not our ability but our avalibility' that counts For God used ignorant and unlearned men before and can do so again as well as the "weak and the foolish things of this earth to confound the great and the wise"
    To that end then . Despite the Hebrew given . It is not proved at all that it should be HEAVENS .
    On two accounts.
    One: In Hebrew ;I have been told by Jews and Gentiles that the Hebrew word CAN be singular as well as plural.
    Two: in English; The argument I have already given in English as to why it should be HEAVEN is proven in English and has not been disproved or undermined by any other here .

    in Christ
  2. Heaven in Hebrew is always plural because there is more than one:

    Original: *שׁמה שׁמים*

    Transliteration: *shâmayim shâmeh*
    Phonetic: *shaw-mah'-yim*
    *BDB Definition*:
    # heaven, heavens, sky
    ## visible heavens, sky
    ### as abode of the stars
    ### as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc
    ## Heaven (as the abode of God)
    Origin: from an unused root meaning to be lofty
    TWOT entry: 2407a
    Part(s) of speech: Noun Masculine
    *Strong's Definition*: The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to _be lofty_ ; the _sky_ (as _aloft_ ; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).

    Hebrew is a creative action oriented language where as most western languages are abstract in their thinking. For example a king reigns in English but in Hebrew it's a king kings (not plural, but that's what we do in English). Verbs and nouns are almost interchangeable with just the addition of a single letter or the placement of the noun before or after a verb, which is actually a noun in action. Depending on the word depends on which letter is used. This is why one Hebrew word can mean so many different things and why it's imperative Christians learn to use a good Hebrew dictionary... Now Greek is as we are accustomed to thinking - abstract. God's choice of languages encompasses all facets of human thinking. Every letter and word in the word of God has very specific and multiple meanings. This is why though the worldly wise can read the exact text as a spirit filled Christian with no schooling and the wise are lost to its understanding. Dictionaries can only give you options, the Holy Spirit is the only way to give one the actual intended meaning.
    Euphemia likes this.
  3. Very informative .Thank you.

    I find it strange though that you start with the assertion that "the Hebrew word is ALWAYS plural"
    and then in the following list state it also as HEAVEN "where Gods throne is "
    Therefore I find it strange though that while you clearly show that the word used CAN be singular as in Heaven or where Gods throne is . Some are so emphatic that it MUST be plural and refers to the SKY etc.
    My argument then for it being HEAVEN still stands and is in no wise undermined by your exposition in Hebrew. Indeed it confirms it , and which I humbly submit have also proved .
    While some are emphatic that it must be HEAVENS and by your exposition speaks only of the skies and space . This is by all other scripture is an absurd rendition. The "Student Bible" that I read while manning a Bible book shop was what led me to this point and argument.
    For by having HEAVENS in Gen 1:1 AND in 2:1 their renderign of Gen 1:1 as "in the beginning God created the SKY and the earth is a reasonable one if you allowed the initial error of HEAVENS .

    You suggest then that knowing only English will lead to error ,(or I am in error ) Yet strangely it is others who with their "better understanding" have mistranslated the Hebrew word and used the plural instead of the singular .
    This then misdirects the eye and the understanding to omit HEAVEN completely.Unless of course we are to pray thy will be done on earth as it is in sky?
    I accept that the Hebrew word can be one or the other and that other Hebrews words can or may mean any number of things.That argument alone upholds my argument as to rely on HiM who is to elad us into all truth more than we rely on our understanding of Hebrew and for that matter English too!

    My argument stands therefore.
    That the HEAVEN spoken of in Genesis 1:1 is the heaven of Gods throne .(for that too is created)
    and all the other HEAVENS that follow are in the context of the EARTH . and follow on from Gen 1:2
    When w eget to Genesis 2:1 the HEAVENS there then speaks of the EARTHLY heavens . Not the Spiritual one "which needs no sun and moon for God is the light thereof"

    In Christ
  4. #84 Euphemia, Sep 10, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2015
    The word tells us about those who quibble about words. It's not good. 1 Timothy 6:4.
    Abdicate likes this.
  5. Given that by the use of HEAVENS instead of heaven others have put in "in the beginning God created the SKY and the earth. I dont think you can reasonably say this is quibbling.
    I would have thought the denial or removal of that heaven where Gods throne is ;is not a light thing.

    In Christ
  6. If I typed tio in Google I'd get uncle. If I type que I'd get what or that. If I added them together, I'd still get uncle. But to Spaniards it has no less than seven different meanings. Point being, understanding Hebrew isn't just a dictionary question but one of understanding in context and why. Sure you can translate שמים as sky, heaven, or heavens, but to a Jew it'll always be heavens, it's their way and God's easy. Why do you think the county who's capital is Doha can be pronounced so many ways and the natives don't care, because that is its way. Cutter, Qatar, Katur, is all acceptable and yet to our ears they're all different. You can take this camel to the bank but in the end it'll still just be a gnat.
    Euphemia likes this.
  7. #87 Euphemia, Sep 10, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2015
    Hon, I gave the Hebrew words that were used in Genesis 1:1 for "heaven" or "heavens". God didn't tell us about His creation of His own dwelling, if in fact it was ever created. He gave us the record of His creation of the entire physical universe, because that is all He dictates that we know---not His spiritual domain.

    It is always good to take the Hebrew or Greek words used in scripture for what they mean.
  8. I beg to differ.
    On the primary principle this is not the things of men but the things of God .and seeing that all scripture is inspired of God then it does matter what words are used and what meaning is attatched to them and how those words are then translated .
    Your example is not a good one .For the simple reason that we are dealing with computers and they are only as good (or as bad) as the men who programed them.
    You imply that I am taking the scripture put of context .How can this be when the very word quoted here in Hebrew has also been recognised by the same people that not only can it be also HEAVENS but also in regards to where Gods throne is rather than the heavens of earth.
    We are not talking about pronunciation either but two different meanings that then have two different consequences .
    What the prevailing argument that has been produced is that the Hebrew says its plural. At the same time without the same being aware of it.They also in the same post give it that it can be plural and of that spiritual heaven.
    I find it odd .
    You suggest as others have that Im splitting hairs or talking about a knat something of no consequence .
    Yet no one not even you seem willign to face the consequences of your "gnat" where others have simply rendered it "In the ebginnign God created the SKY and the earth"
    Do you really think that is a 'gnat' let alone acceptable?

    in Christ
  9. The point is that God did not relate to us the creation of anything but the physical universe. He has said nothing about His own dwelling place---the spiritual Kingdom of Heaven, that it has an origin.
  10. #90 Complete, Sep 11, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2015
    Hello @geralduk,

    The words used, and their meanings, are very important. Quibbling about them, as Euphemia has said, is not good. However, I do not believe that this is what is happening here.

    The grammatical rules of a language are set, aren't they? They are there to provide a sure framework for understanding the true meaning and function of words. To dispute them is to take away the confidence we have in words and their meaning, and leaves us without a solid basis upon which to ground our understanding.

    However, the way the Holy Spirit uses the words of Scripture, can be determined by comparison. So, regardless of the rules of grammar, we can know, by the way He uses them, what those words are intended to convey.

    Geralduk, you have called into question the notations in my Bible, in which I was informed that the word heaven is always plural, simply because you have been told otherwise by others. With respect, that is not a solid bases upon which to reason. Please seek an authorititive source of information on the Hebrew meaning of the word used in this case, and then you will be able to speak with authority.

    Strong's concordance defines the word as (quote):-
    * I don't find that particularly helpful. I think I will stick to comparing the way the Holy Spirit uses the word, to determine how to understand it, myself.

    In Christ Jesus
  11. Yes I do and ya know God never said we can not get there - He said our thinking is wrong.
  12. I have come to learn it is broke down into three realms
    1st Heaven - where you and I dwell and live. A slower 2 dementional realm
    2nd Heaven - Spiritual realm - satans domian or where he rules and yes he can come into the 1st heaven where we live but dwells from the second or spiritual realm.
    .....Hence spiritual wickedness in heavenly places.....and so forth
    3rd Heaven - Gods throne - dwelling place - where Jesus sits on the right side of the Father.

    1st heaven or where we live in this slower 2 dementional realm is nothing compared to what goes on in the second heaven or spiritual realm - There is more spiritual activity going on there then we have here. The angels actually have to slow down to our 2 demetional realm just to be seen. This is the best I can describe it at this time. ;)

    There is so much more to all of this then most can even grasp.
  13. By your own argument I will return it to you . "You have called into question the notations(!?) in my Bible"
    Your own argument such as it is can be used against you ,For you or others have called into question my bible.
    I refuse to reduce this to simple personality or matters of opinion.
    I draw your attention to the post of 'Abdicate' who kindly instructed me in the Hebrew about this matter.
    I draw your atention to the fact that eh also asserted right at the beginning that the Hebrew word in question "is always plural"
    Yet in the same post he uses the word HEAVEN to denote the abode of God or where Gods throne is.
    But before God I questioned a Jew who I believe as a rabbi and he said the word can also be singular .
    I have also heard it confessed by Hebrew scholars also that it can be singular also.
    So the assertion that it "always" and can be only plural is simply that an assertion.
    My argument ;which no one has addressed at all as to WHY it should be HEAVEN and not heavens is in my view odd . For it is both reasonable it does not violate biblical and sound doctrine nor contradict any other scripture .
    I arrived at my conclusion that it should be heaven by biblical argument and surveying most scripture that appliesd ot the matter .
    Some oen was tempted to suggest that the heaven where Gods throne is and all the host of heaven " were not created "at all.I would assume either they did not realise the import of what they were saying or were too rushed in the sayi9ng of it to come to such a conclusion. But it does indicate how one error can or does lead to another in the defense of an error .
    You said "notations" Do I understand that to mean either notations in your Bible or in a Hebrew Bible/commentary?
    I care not a wit about another mans notations if by them it misleads people.

    I do call into question versions of the Bible that have mistranslated it even from the beginning .
    As I said before I refuse to reduce it down to you and me and hopefully you will not take any of this as some personel attack.
    My authority is the scriptures themselves .Not my understanding of Hebrew or English as it were.
    My argument (which no one has adressed at all) is a biblical argument that argues by the logic of the scriptures themsleves .
    In the beginning God created the HEAVEN and the EARTH.
    and it was ONLY the earth that was in darkness .
    Not heaven.
    That heaven God created in the beginning must be the heaven of Gods throne.
    and NOT the "heavens" of earth which follow it.
    I would also draw your atention to the fact that if we are BORNagain we are born of HEAVEN .
    For there is that which is of HEAVEN and that which is of EARTH.
    Do you see then how important this is ?
    For if you deny HEAVEN which some misguidedly have and some versions have as in "in the beginning God created the SKY and the earth"(student bible) Then do you not deny your own birth as it were?
    Again I am not accusing you or I am simply shwping what great contradiction such a renedition of Gen 1:1 has.

    in Christ
  14. You have assumed that .
    But john 1:1 and onwards says differently .
    ALL things were created by him and there is nothing that was created that wa s not created by Him.
    Heaven and the kingdom of heaven is not God therefore it too was created as also His throne and all the hosts of them.
    For not even that heaven can contain God or be hsi home .
    But he has chosen it to be so and created a heaven that is in keeping with His Holyness and character.
    Thus In the beginning or in one sense the VERY beginning .God created the visible and the invisible .The Spiritual and the carnal.

    Those who are BORN again are BORN of heaven .
    There are those of heaven and those of earth.

    in Christ
  15. Did not Paul go to the third heaven? "whether in a dream or no"?
    Lucifer was cast OUT of HEAVEN and down to the EARTH .
    His power is in the air .That is the first heaven (?) or it could also be the space?the second heaven.
    They were both created AFTER Gen 1:2
    For "he made the stars also " and then put the sun and the moon there .
    and "the firmiment he called heaven."

    in Christ
  16. This thread is being watched.
  17. The Jews believe there are seven heavens...
  18. Ok
  19. The same Jewish man who said Heaven can be plural or singular also said there were an awful lot of names/words for heaven.
    I replied to him when he mentioned 7 heavens that was more in line I thought with Pagan or Greek ideas of heaven.
    I then commented that Eskimos or Induits as they are now called have many names for snow each bearing witness to the many types of snow they have knowledge of.
    Was that then the same with the Jews? and heaven or? He did not wish to elaborate more sadly.
    I dont know anywhere in the Bible where it speaks of 7 heavens ;does anybody? I do know it speaks of three.

    in Christ
  20. I mean't you no offence, @geralduk.

    I do realize the importance of having a correct understanding of the words used in Scripture, whatever they are.

    I do believe that the emphasis placed on the words, 'heaven' and 'earth', in Genesis 1:1, by the use of the word, 'the' before each one sets them apart. The testimony of the rest of Scripture, also, makes clear the nature of it: eg., the fact that the temple and the tabernacle etc., made to such precise patterns, are made to reflect what is in heaven. Our Lord Jesus Christ, also, rose up above 'all heavens', so there is more than one (Eph. 4:10). Our spiritual blessings are to be enjoyed in 'heavenly places' in Christ Jesus, too.

    This is all I can say.

    In Christ Jesus

Share This Page