I fear you presume too much of God and think too much of the pleasure of men .
in Christ
gerald
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- Thread starter geralduk
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I fear you presume too much of God and think too much of the pleasure of men .
in Christ
gerald
Glomung
Account Closed
The Chapter and Verse thing was an effort by several:
The chapter divisions commonly used today were developed by Stephen Langton, an Archbishop of Canterbury. Langton put the modern chapter divisions into place in around A.D. 1227. The Wycliffe English Bible of 1382 was the first Bible to use this chapter pattern. Since the Wycliffe Bible, nearly all Bible translations have followed Langton's chapter divisions.
The Hebrew Old Testament was divided into verses by a Jewish rabbi by the name of Nathan in A.D. 1448. Robert Estienne, who was also known as Stephanus, was the first to divide the New Testament into standard numbered verses, in 1555. Stephanus essentially used Nathan's verse divisions for the Old Testament. Since that time, beginning with the Geneva Bible, the chapter and verse divisions employed by Stephanus have been accepted into nearly all the Bible versions.
Because the Bible is full of "thou shalt not's" and "do this's".
If you don't have a codified statement of doctrine you end up with chaos like the Unitarians, whose doctrine is "anything goes".
Don't think for a minute that the vast majority of "christians" are the "children of God".
Most have never met Him, and wouldn't like Him if they did.
The chapter divisions commonly used today were developed by Stephen Langton, an Archbishop of Canterbury. Langton put the modern chapter divisions into place in around A.D. 1227. The Wycliffe English Bible of 1382 was the first Bible to use this chapter pattern. Since the Wycliffe Bible, nearly all Bible translations have followed Langton's chapter divisions.
The Hebrew Old Testament was divided into verses by a Jewish rabbi by the name of Nathan in A.D. 1448. Robert Estienne, who was also known as Stephanus, was the first to divide the New Testament into standard numbered verses, in 1555. Stephanus essentially used Nathan's verse divisions for the Old Testament. Since that time, beginning with the Geneva Bible, the chapter and verse divisions employed by Stephanus have been accepted into nearly all the Bible versions.
Because the Bible is full of "thou shalt not's" and "do this's".
If you don't have a codified statement of doctrine you end up with chaos like the Unitarians, whose doctrine is "anything goes".
Don't think for a minute that the vast majority of "christians" are the "children of God".
Most have never met Him, and wouldn't like Him if they did.
Each man should be pursauded in his own mind of these things . But to project the idea that each has its merits and demerits and in truth before God a prevailing and inherent prejudice against the KJV is not even just given Gods blessing on it let alone right . I am not accusing you of it I am saying that it abounds and I have come across it in many ways and in many places.
But I have yet to hear and biblical argument that stands any real scrutiny that proves the KJV is unreliable . Indeed after 40 years of using it in the most trying situations and faced with an aggressive and challenging Islam I have tried and tested it both in facing challenges to the Word of God and in answering those who believe it not and worse.
Yet the church with ist myriad of versions still has to answer the challenge to a Moslem "which Bible are you talking about " and which version if they say differently etc.
I have no such problems .either in reply or contending for the faith.
in Christ
gerald
The Chapter and verse are helpful only .For reference and for general outline.
But they should not be taken as 'gospel'
For instance the report of the woman taken in adultery does not start at John 1:1 . But in the last two verses of the preceeding chapter . A discovery I did not find till relatively recently .
But it does not add to scripture or violate it .
and the chapter and verse argument is a bit of a red herring.
In Christ
gerald
Glomung
Account Closed
Which ones are not accurate? and in what way? Don't make broad accusations, be specific in your gripes.
Yes, they are. So the language they are expressed in should not matter.
Of course it's an antique language. No one has spoken Elizabethan English for 300+ years.
Why bring it into the modern idiom? So people can UNDERSTAND. I do believe that the whole point of reading is to understand the material, is it not?
Glomung
Account Closed
Your complaint here is pointless. The layout does not change the content in any way.
If complete accuracy is your personal issue why not read it in the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek?
Actually we have the law of sin and death and the law of Christ . that is all.
The condemnation now is not so much that men have sinned (for all have sinned) But that men love darkness more than the light and believed not on Him whom God has sent.
in Christ
gerald
Glomung
Account Closed
You cannot simplify complicated things just by saying "it is so".
Those who complain it is an Elezabethan langauge as opposed to Biblical langauge then have to face the matter that people do not change Shakespeare (much if at all) langauge . Albeit it is hard to understand the thought patterns of it .
It is not a gripe as you call it .For that would be "murmering " would it not?
Its a serious and grave matter .
I will give you just one example that all modern versions save the KJV and one other which I have forgotten which do .
Genesis 1:1
Most save one modern version has it : In the beginning God created the heavenS and the earth .
KjV In the beginning God created the heaveN and the earth .
The prevailing argument is that the Hebrew word is plural not singular.
This not so . It can be used singular as well as plural.
But to prove that in English it should be HEAVEN I say this .
1:1 In the begining God created the HEAVEN and the earth.
1:2 and the EARTH was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
Note it was not heaven that was in darkness but the earth .
For heaven has no need of sun and moon for God is the light thereof .
Every verse that follows verse 2 is about the EARTH .
untill you get to about verse 8(?) when it says and God separated the waters above the firmemant from the waters that were below the firmament and that firmemant is called what? HEAVEN .
But that heaven or fermiment is of the EARTH and is then another heaven.
What heaven the heaven where the birds fly between the two waters of the EARTH .
and when was the sun and moon created and "the stars also"? after verse two and pertaining to the earth .Thus you have two heavens that are as it were of the EARTH .
This the HEAVENS of chapter two verse 1 .
thus you have three HEAVENS . The heaven where Gods throne is. that was created in the beginning .The heaven where the stars sun and moon are and the heaven where the birds fly .
Was it not Paul who went to the third heaven? whether it was in a dream or in the flesh he knew not.
What modern translators have done is jump to their own conclusions rather than arrive at the truth .
For God is a God of order and he created all things in its order . The invisible and the visible . In the beginning .
he then always brings light before he does a work.
hence the light n before the sun and moon.
For it was not God who was in darkness but man and is ti not written "they that sat in darkness have seen a great light? or in another place "he commanded the light to shine in the darkness of our hearts"?
The word then is HEAVEN for gen 1:1 and HEAVENS for gen 2 : 1
More could be said .But enough for now .
in Christ
gerald
It is not I who simplified it but God .
Who has settled it all on ,in and through Jesus Christ.
in Christ
gerald
Where is my complaint about the chapter and verse?
I simply said they are helpful .But we should not be bound by them as to when things start and when they ended and I gave an example for it .
Why then do you complain?
You say that we can only be accurate in Greek Hebrew and Aramaic .
If men can understand Gods message by knowing such things .Why then did Saul of Tarsus not ? Or for that matter those who opposed the Lord.
Hebrew was his mother tounge and still he understood not .
Then i say go and learn Hebrew and Greek if you can or wish . But remember not to lean so much on your u nderstanding of Greek and Hebrew and the letter that you forget to Trust in Him whos promised to lead us into all truth .Even those who dont know them.
in Christ
gerald
Glomung
Account Closed
Are we reading the same book? There is nothing simple about the doctrine described in the Bible.
Like all REAL things, it is complicated.
Glomung
Account Closed
We seem to have a language barrier (no surprise). It was you who complained that translations were no good, so, that being
your burden, I suggested you read it all in the original languages.
For myself, I'm fine with English.
Yet while I gave a good argument as to why it should be one or the other .You assert simply there is no difference .But do not prove it .
Yet there is a version called the "Student Bible" and they have rendered Gen1:1 as "In the beginning God created the SKY and the EARTH ."
Are we now by that to forget that heaven of God where we are supposed to pray for instance that "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"?
and believe what? That Gods throne is on some distant moon or planet?
That all there is then is the EARTH and there is by your argument no heaven.
Indeed by rendering Gen 1:1 as heavens that student bible s rendering of "sky" is perfectly logical and exact! for reasons I have shown earlier about the heavens.
You say I should lay off the gnats ?
Jesus said not one tittle shall pass away etc. he was concerned about those little marks Hebrew have to denote various things .Jesus said all of them were important . The serpent changed the truth into a lie simply by adding three letters . "N,O,T"
"Thou shalt not surely die "
So I am quite with in bounds to question an "S" that changes the whole meaning of a chapter and so misdirects some they will render it "SKY"!
in Christ
gerald
I took it that it is not Gospel would be understood .
meaning that the use of chapters and verses is not the Word of God or they should be slavishly adhered to and gave my reasons and example .I hope your not goign to reduce this post to some personal opinions ?
in Christ
gerald
Simple answer.........I at some times can only understand about half of what you are saying or wanting to be heard. Therefore...........if we only had one way of saying something then not every one would learn or grasp.
The problem stems from MEN trying to prove what is and what is not. MEN trying to show their INTELLECT by dis-provoving another. MEN trying to be CORRECT and loosing their teachable spirit. MEN trying to look and sound smarter by their choice of words.
We are all different and God created us this way. We all see and hear and understand and speak in different ways. God loves us all and teaches us how to deal with those differences and how to be able to teach all the different types of people in such a way that ALL CAN LEARN. So why the big fuss over this ?
Ahhhhhh But fear is not of God. So cast out that fear.
Glomung
Account Closed
This is a waste of time.
Go outside at night and look up. What do you see? Whether you call it heaven, heavens, sky, cielo, menel, or whatever, the words all convey the same concept.
That is the point.
Once again we are back to the original point. If a translation carries the original concepts, then it is accurate.
Nitpicking over personal likes and dislikes is pointless.
have a good day
Go outside at night and look up. What do you see? Whether you call it heaven, heavens, sky, cielo, menel, or whatever, the words all convey the same concept.
That is the point.
Once again we are back to the original point. If a translation carries the original concepts, then it is accurate.
Nitpicking over personal likes and dislikes is pointless.
have a good day