Women in the church

[geralduk]

The foundational truth that Paul uses for this subject is what he says it is .

Before we jump to any conclusion as to what we think he is saying , we need to understand what he HAS said in the beginning.
If we start with the truth and with each step speak the truth in a sequential argument line upon line precept upon precept we may then by the grace of God arrive at or come to a knowledge of the truth.

For people who jump to conclusions never arrive at the truth .
so lets forget about the gifts and ministries and offices for the moment and start at the beginning as he did .
I am assuming that as true BORN children of God of the word and the Spirit of God we all believe what God says as to the beginning of man?
If any are not they should declare it . or if they say they are but do not actually believe what God says about "in the beginning"?
It will help the discussion .
The church has not left foundational truth it has rarely been taught it .
But rather each denomination teaches its 'truth' according to its own traditions and theological 'schools' Without ever going back to the root of it . But has each in turn accepted a 'doctrine' almost always on an intellectual level with 'tick boxes' of belief.
But each man must judge himself on the matter and search his own heart .
So what actually did Paul say? Im quoting the KJV and dont accept any other authority .


verse 12 .......but I suffer a woman not to teach nor USURP authority over the man but to be in silence "
verse 13 For Adam was formed then Eve .......
Then we need to go back to the book of Genesis and see and understand what he saw and understood by that .

We have all the hope available to us to be able to understand fully these matters because we have the living Holy Spirit living in us interpreting the scriptures to us, when we are open to His lead.

James 1:5 comes to mind at this point:
If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking.

Not disputed .
But why then is there great errors creeping into the church and much strife ? and sound doctrines proved beyond dispute at the reformation now rejected and errors now growingly ecccepted?
and why do false prophets and apostles who parade and perform before Gods people received?

Why in the milk of the Word as to being BORNagain are most of the church in agreement yet practically in all other matters including this one there is none?
Why is it that men seek a unity that denies the truth but seem unwilling to be unified by the Spirit by the Word of God and the Will of God?
For to have a TRUE unity of THE faith there needs must also be a unity of understanding . That no argument of 'maturity' will cover over the lack of it.

as I said before in this issue people do not even go or argue from the foundational thought of Pauls exposition .is it because they do not believe it?

in Christ
gerald

 

[geralduk]

The foundational truth that Paul uses for this subject is what he says it is .

Before we jump to any conclusion as to what we think he is saying , we need to understand what he HAS said in the beginning.
If we start with the truth and with each step speak the truth in a sequential argument line upon line precept upon precept we may then by the grace of God arrive at or come to a knowledge of the truth.

For people who jump to conclusions never arrive at the truth .
so lets forget about the gifts and ministries and offices for the moment and start at the beginning as he did .
I am assuming that as true BORN children of God of the word and the Spirit of God we all believe what God says as to the beginning of man?
If any are not they should declare it . or if they say they are but do not actually believe what God says about "in the beginning"?
It will help the discussion .
The church has not left foundational truth it has rarely been taught it .
But rather each denomination teaches its 'truth' according to its own traditions and theological 'schools' Without ever going back to the root of it . But has each in turn accepted a 'doctrine' almost always on an intellectual level with 'tick boxes' of belief.
But each man must judge himself on the matter and search his own heart .
So what actually did Paul say? Im quoting the KJV and dont accept any other authority .


verse 12 .......but I suffer a woman not to teach nor USURP authority over the man but to be in silence "
verse 13 For Adam was formed then Eve .......
Then we need to go back to the book of Genesis and see and understand what he saw and understood by that .

Gen 3:16.. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Notice it did not say, that "man" shall rule over "women". God said your "husband" shall rule over you " wife". No where in the Bible does it say man rules over women. No man rules over any women or all women, it is only the husband who rules over his wife.

Paul went back one more step than the verse you quoted .

If we start where he started then we can walk with him in his argument .
If we start at some other place how can we say we walk with him?
and rather than assume this or that first . Start as if we know nothing save the Lord who promised that" when the Spirit of truth shall come HE will lead us into all truth " Even this one . and when we know the truth the truth will make us free .

in Christ
gerald

 

[geralduk]

My apologies for the replications , Not sure what happened there.

in Christ
gerald

 

[geralduk]

Genesis 1:16
And God said ,Let us make man in our image,after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,and over the fowl of the air,and over the cattle,and over all the earth,and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
17
So God created man in his own image,in the image of God created he him; male and female made he them.

Gen 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground ,and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;and man became a living soul.
Man was created from the dust of the earth .Woman was created from the body of the man .
We are by nature MANkind and not another kind .
For each fruit has its seed within itself and it is the man who has the seed not the woman .thus it is man kind .
The world has begun to change even the language of God and now says 'humans' rather than man or people .To suit all manner of worldly perceptions .
From Gen 2:7 we read of God planting a garden " eastward in Eden " and out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight (aesthetics) and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden,and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

2:15
And the Lord God took the man,and put him in the garden to dress it and to keep it .
It should be noted that at this point Eve was not yet created .
16
"And the Lord God commanded the man,saying, Of every tree in the garden thou mayest freely eat "
this then included the tree of life .
"But of the knowledge of good and evil ye shall not eat of it; for in the day ye eat thereof ye shall surely die "
Now many seem to think that God gives man a choice to do good or do evil.
But where in the above scripture does God do that?
For in all things up to that point all was good and very good .
and God said" of every tree in the garden you may freely eat ."
Adam had the liberty to choose from any tree that was GOOD to eat .
Which included the tree of life . That was the choice God gave Adam .
He did not give him the liberty to eat of the tree that would bring him death and was therefore evil to eat .
Is it not written ; man shall not live by every tree that was good to eat but by that Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God as to what was good and what was evil to eat?
Thus Adam already had knowledge as to what was good and what was evil for it was given to him by God ; by His word.
and by that word he lived.
In truth when men do evil they become bound and not free and the more evil men do the more bound they become and the less choices they have all together .
This is all before the creation of Eve .it should be noted.

What has this to do with the subject in question?
Well you could ask Paul that for this the foundation of his 'argument'
and then ask yourself .
You see why we need the Holy Spirit to truly understand the scriptures?
For the foundations of his thinking rest on the foundations of all the scripture that follows the book of Genesis .
For all that follows the book of Genesis rests on that first book. and the last book is the fulfillment and the resulting fruit of the first book.
Later on we read of the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent . So right at the beginning we have a division and an enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent .
But the woman does not have the seed she has an egg . How then does God speak of the seed of the woman?
Because neither wisdom would allow nor indeed the practicality of speaking can all things be said all at once . For words by their very nature can only be said one word at a time.
God willing to show that this ONE ("IT") male ("HE") child would be born of a woman and thus fully man would not be of Adams seed . So it is was said "the seed of the woman"

This speaking of the Word of God "which is the seed" which speaks of Jesus Christ .Who is the truth .
and God being the father of Him.
The seed of the serpent then is the word of the devil which is a lie he being the father of all lies.
and" I will put enmity between thy seed and the womans seed "
So it was so it is and will be till the end when he shall be no more; able to deceive men ."and they will look upon him narrowly....."

in Christ
gerald

 

[Grant Melville]

Paul endorses the idea of women praying and prophesying publicly.

1 Corinthians 11:5
But a woman dishonors her head if she prays or prophesies without a covering on her head,


Paul was was more than willing to let trained, Bible-believing women teach--since he commends such female ministers as Phoebe, Junia, Priscilla, Tryphena and Tryphosa . Males sat under them.

There is no blanket rule that restricts women from preaching, praying, teaching or prophesying. In fact, Paul recommends women to do so in 1 Corinthians 14, encouraging all believers to prophesy.
.

Women pray and prophesy, for sure - but it couldn't be in the assembly that Paul was referring to, "for it is a shame for a woman to speak in assembly" (1 Corinthians 14:35).

I don't think that any of the examples cited bear out the point, if we examine the scriptures in question:-

Pheobe, we've already covered - as a minister (or deacon), scripture gives us to understand that she would help with the daily ministrations and serving tables.

Junia (or Junias): "Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles; who were also in Christ before me." (Romans 16:7). Junia was Paul's kinsman - not an exclusively male designation, but likely to be.

Priscilla: "And [Apollos] began to speak boldly in the synagogue. And Aquila and Priscilla, having heard him, took him to them and unfolded to him the way of God more exactly." In conjunction with her husband, and in the household setting, Priscilla was involved in the enlightening of Apollos. This gives us an insight into the vital role of wives in the household, and how a wife who is spiritual acts in concert with her husband. Aquila and Priscilla acted together, with the same object.

Tryphaena and Tryphosa: "Salute Tryphaena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute Persis, the beloved, who has laboured much in the Lord." (Romans 16:12). The laboured much in the Lord, as godly sisters do, but there's no suggestion that they taught in the assembly. Labouring takes in a much wider field.

With the possible exception of Priscilla, there's no suggestion that any of these sisters were involved in teaching men, and none that suggest they had authority over a man.

I would reiterate that prophesy, prayer, and preaching of the gospel are not limited to an assembly setting.

 

[Grant Melville]

Gen 3:16.. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Notice it did not say, that "man" shall rule over "women". God said your "husband" shall rule over you " wife". No where in the Bible does it say man rules over women. No man rules over any women or all women, it is only the husband who rules over his wife.

For the matter of headship, we have to look to 1 Corinthians 11: "But I wish you to know that the Christ is the head of every man, but woman's head is the man, and the Christ's head God." (1 Corinthians 11:3). That is the divine ordering.

For myself - although I'm not a woman - I don't see what's so objectionable about the divine ordering. We are all under the headship of Christ. His yoke is easy, and His burden is light (Matthew 11:30). Divine rule isn't authoritarian, it isn't applied with force or violence. Jesus came into a scene where He was the rightful King and ruler of the Jews, yet He washed the feet of the disciples. We have to follow in His footsteps, and be conformed to Him. Shepherds (or 'pastors') must follow the pattern of the Good Shepherd, "not as lording it over your possessions, but being models for the flock." (1 Peter 5:3). Headship isn't an irksome thing. If we look to the world to form our impression of rule, headship, and authority, we'll get a very jaundiced view of it. The world is full of tyrannical, avaricious, cruel, and unjust rulers and heads. The divine system is completely different, as different as day is from night.

Subjection doesn't come naturally to many of us. It took me a long time and a good few difficult exercises for me to learn that I need to be subject to my brethren. When I learned that, I finally saw how lovely it is to be in subjection in the divine system. If I'd listened to and obeyed my brethren when I was younger, I would've been spared a lot of trouble and grief. But, it was in God's will to allow me to pass through those exercises to teach me that important lesson. We all need to learn subjection, whether we're rebellious teenagers, or mature men or women. Ultimately, we're all subject to the same Lord, and all authority comes from our God and Father. When we see it in that light, it doesn't seem so much of a problem for us to be subject to one another.

 

[CCW95A]

For the matter of headship, we have to look to 1 Corinthians 11: "But I wish you to know that the Christ is the head of every man, but woman's head is the man, and the Christ's head God." (1 Corinthians 11:3). That is the divine ordering.

Brother, the problem is so simple we miss it. No where in holy scripture does it say that man (male) is the head of a women (female). The only time a man is the head of a women is in marriage, and then the husband is the head of his wife.

1Co 11:3.. I would have you know, however, that of every man, Christ is the Head, that of a woman her husband is the Head, and that God is Christ's Head. (WNT)

I am the head of my wife, but I am surly not the head of your wife or I would be called an adulterer. As it is written...

1Co 6:16.. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

Husband and wife in a marriage become one flesh in which the man takes on the head ship role over his wife, but not over other women.

1Co 6:17.. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Notice: "domestically" the man is the head of his wife, but not "spiritually". No women goes through her husband to get saved as she is one in the spirit in exactly the same way the man is one in the spirit, and Christ is her head no different then Christ being the head of the man.
But as a wife, in the natural human relationship, she has a subordinate place in the family. (She does not have a subordinate place in the Body of Christ. And this does not mean that husband and wife are not equal before God.)

 

[CCW95A]

For myself - although I'm not a woman - I don't see what's so objectionable about the divine ordering.

Notice the entire Church is to "submit" to one another no different then how a wife is to submit to her husband, and The husband is to submit to his wife as its says we are to submit to one another!! Submitting simply means It means they are to be agreeable and endeavor to get along with each other.

Eph 5:21.. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22.. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23.. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24.. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Is not God the head of Christ? Is Christ allowed to speak in the assembly? Is the Father God allowed to speak in the assembly, or the Holy Spirit?

 

[geralduk]

It seems the real thing going on is not the will of God but each vying for 'position' and neither submitting to the will and Word of God and the Way of God.

in Christ
gerald

 

[Ravindran]

I just wanted to comment on the verse "wives, submit to your husband". It took a while for me to grasp the meaning of this. I think we all agree submission here is being subjected to one another. The verse is very clearly asking wives to submit to husband. But I think here men need to take note of something very important. We often feel it gives superiority to men. It actually adds more responsibility to men. I would like to go back to the story in garden of Eden to understand this better.

We know it was Eve who took a bite of the forbidden fruit first. Now they know good and evil. They take leaves and make dress. And hide from God. As evening comes, God comes down to visit them. God asks "Where are you Adam?". We all have heard a lot about why God would ask Adam is, if He knew everything. And the response is, God wanted to Adam to give an account. One interesting thing here. If Eve was the first person to eat the fruit and she was the one who gave it to Adam, why would God confront Adam first? He could have very well called Eve first and said why did she eat the fruit. Then He could have come to Adam (with some pity) and asked why he also fell and did not resist from eating. Interestingly, it was Adam who was questioned first. Adam gives the typical response! Ask her That was not a good response. Here Adam is leader of the family. He has a key responsibility of leading the family spiritually. When Eve ate the fruit, Adam had the responsibility to make sure it was taken care at that time itself. He failed in that responsibility.

When Bible asks wives to submit to husbands, it means wives should submit to "spiritual leadership" of husband which should be aligned with God's Word and Will. It is as good as saying wives should submit to God's Will and Word. Because there is an implicit responsibility on husbands to lead the family in the right path. Just my 2 cents (or may be more!)

 

[CCW95A]

I do not think you can make the case that the "husband" is the spiritual "head" of his wife. If that was the case what happens when a born again wife is married to a nonbeliever? Would her non believing husband be her spiritual head? Never happen, and even if her husband was a believer he still would not be her spiritual head. Christ is the head of the wife, in same way that Christ is the head of her husband. Why would that be? Because in Christ there is no male, female.

Gal 3:26.. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27.. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28.. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

In Christ we are all the same, and all one. What happens to the husband, wife rule where man is the head of his wife in Christ? They do not exist!!! Man being the head of his wife only happens in the natural physical marriage covenant, but in Christ there is no such a thing. If a wife is in Christ then her only head is Christ while she is sitting on the right hand of God in Christ. The same thing is true to the husband who is in Christ. Do we really think the Holy Spirit looks at the sex of a child of God before he distributes his gifts to them?
He could careless as long as Christ is their head they are open to be used by him in any way he decides.

 

[Euphemia]

Women pray and prophesy, for sure - but it couldn't be in the assembly that Paul was referring to, "for it is a shame for a woman to speak in assembly" (1 Corinthians 14:35).

Yes, it would have been in the assembly, which proves the lack of understanding of the word. What might be the easy route is not the right route.

What was the shame was women speaking out when instruction was going on. Rude, vociferous women were being given correction. All people in the assembly were encouraged by Paul to exercise the gifts of prophecy and to pray.

Pheobe, we've already covered - as a minister (or deacon), scripture gives us to understand that she would help with the daily ministrations and serving tables.

That's false. Deacons don't wait on tables. They have spiritual responsibilities in the local church. "Diakonos" refers to a Christian teacher or pastor in the local church---a servant-leader, as all our pastors are supposed to be.

Junia (or Junias): "Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles; who were also in Christ before me." (Romans 16:7). Junia was Paul's kinsman - not an exclusively male designation, but likely to be.

Junia is most likely a female name and she was an apostle.

Tryphaena and Tryphosa: "Salute Tryphaena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute Persis, the beloved, who has laboured much in the Lord." (Romans 16:12). The laboured much in the Lord, as godly sisters do, but there's no suggestion that they taught in the assembly. Labouring takes in a much wider field.

There's no indication that these women never taught in the assembly.

I would reiterate that prophesy, prayer, and preaching of the gospel are not limited to an assembly setting.

Of course they are not, but women are used by God in all the same roles as men---within the assembly and without, praise God!

 

[Euphemia]

For the matter of headship, we have to look to 1 Corinthians 11: "But I wish you to know that the Christ is the head of every man, but woman's head is the man, and the Christ's head God." (1 Corinthians 11:3). That is the divine ordering.

Actually the word, "Kepha", or head has another meaning which is appropriate here: source, as in the head of a mighty river.

God is the source of the man, Jesus; man is the source of woman (Adam and Eve); Christ our Creator is the source of every man.

There is no hierarchy in the Body of Christ.

 

[geralduk]

As every one wants 'titles' and 'position' then a humble deacon who waited on tables does not cut the mustard .
yet the qualification for doing so was to be full of faith and wisdom that entailed the looking after the needs of the saints of both Jew and gentile and keeping the unity of the faith.

It is apparent that the doctrine of the Nicolaitans while unrecognised is alive and well .

As with all the other contentious issues in the church the devil gets his way and simply polorises every one . To that end where both are wrong like all the other 'issues' and instead of actually looking at what Paul says and why and be led by the Holy Spirit people presume ,assume and jump to their own conclusions based either on a particular 'school' of theology or their own thinking.

In Christ
gerald

 

[Grant Melville]

Brother, the problem is so simple we miss it. No where in holy scripture does it say that man (male) is the head of a women (female). The only time a man is the head of a women is in marriage, and then the husband is the head of his wife.

1Co 11:3.. I would have you know, however, that of every man, Christ is the Head, that of a woman her husband is the Head, and that God is Christ's Head. (WNT)

I am the head of my wife, but I am surly not the head of your wife or I would be called an adulterer. As it is written...

1Co 6:16.. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

Husband and wife in a marriage become one flesh in which the man takes on the head ship role over his wife, but not over other women.

1Co 6:17.. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Notice: "domestically" the man is the head of his wife, but not "spiritually". No women goes through her husband to get saved as she is one in the spirit in exactly the same way the man is one in the spirit, and Christ is her head no different then Christ being the head of the man.
But as a wife, in the natural human relationship, she has a subordinate place in the family. (She does not have a subordinate place in the Body of Christ. And this does not mean that husband and wife are not equal before God.)

There are very few translations which insert the word "husband" into 1 Corinthians 11:3, and for good reason, because the Spirit of God never intended it to be there. Husbands and wives are spoken of elsewhere in scripture, but not here, because here we have a general principle. If this wasn't a general principle, why is it said that women should be silent in the assembly, that they shouldn't be permitted to teach or have authority over a man, that they should learn in quietness? The breadth of the scriptures bears out the principle. What the scripture doesn't say is that women are inferior to men, or that they have a lesser standing before God, or that men should regard women as inferior, or disrespect them. It says quite the opposite (again, in the terms of general principles) that we should regard one another as more excellent, that there is no distinction between male and female, etc. Both these principles run alongside one another, though the world which doesn't know God could never reconcile them.

I have no doubt whatsoever that these scriptures could be misapplied, and used as justification for male oppression of women. That would be a departure from the divine mind, and disorderly. What we have in these scriptures in a reiteration of the divine order, which was set out from the first, as our brother @geralduk has been encouraging us to consider.

 

[Grant Melville]

Notice the entire Church is to "submit" to one another no different then how a wife is to submit to her husband, and The husband is to submit to his wife as its says we are to submit to one another!! Submitting simply means It means they are to be agreeable and endeavor to get along with each other.

Eph 5:21.. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22.. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23.. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24.. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Is not God the head of Christ? Is Christ allowed to speak in the assembly? Is the Father God allowed to speak in the assembly, or the Holy Spirit?

Yes, I absolutely agree. Simply because, in the ordering of the assembly, a godly sister can't take vocal part, it doesn't mean that I shouldn't regard her is more excellent, and appreciate her spiritual substance. It doesn't mean that she can't help me as a joint of supply in the body. There is no sense of inferiority in taking a place of subjection in divine things. The Lord Himself took the lowest place, and His moral beauty was displayed in doing so.

 

[Grant Melville]

Notice the entire Church is to "submit" to one another no different then how a wife is to submit to her husband, and The husband is to submit to his wife as its says we are to submit to one another!! Submitting simply means It means they are to be agreeable and endeavor to get along with each other.

Eph 5:21.. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22.. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23.. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24.. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Is not God the head of Christ? Is Christ allowed to speak in the assembly? Is the Father God allowed to speak in the assembly, or the Holy Spirit?

Yes, I absolutely agree. Simply because, in the ordering of the assembly, a godly sister can't take vocal part, it doesn't mean that I shouldn't regard her is more excellent, and appreciate her spiritual substance. It doesn't mean that she can't help me as a joint of supply in the body. There is no sense of inferiority in taking a place of subjection in divine things. The Lord Himself took the lowest place, and His moral beauty was displayed in doing so.

 

[Grant Melville]

As every one wants 'titles' and 'position' then a humble deacon who waited on tables does not cut the mustard .
yet the qualification for doing so was to be full of faith and wisdom that entailed the looking after the needs of the saints of both Jew and gentile and keeping the unity of the faith.

It is apparent that the doctrine of the Nicolaitans while unrecognised is alive and well .

As with all the other contentious issues in the church the devil gets his way and simply polorises every one . To that end where both are wrong like all the other 'issues' and instead of actually looking at what Paul says and why and be led by the Holy Spirit people presume ,assume and jump to their own conclusions based either on a particular 'school' of theology or their own thinking.

In Christ
gerald

I'm beginning to understand why Nicolaitanism is so hated by the Lord. It's so corrupting, so widespread, and so pervasive. I never saw it in connection with what we're discussing before, but its influence is here. It's utterly destructive of unity, as a result of the Spirit of God not being allowed His rightful sphere of operation amongst us.

That's very humbling.

 

[geralduk]

I'm beginning to understand why Nicolaitanism is so hated by the Lord. It's so corrupting, so widespread, and so pervasive. I never saw it in connection with what we're discussing before, but its influence is here. It's utterly destructive of unity, as a result of the Spirit of God not being allowed His rightful sphere of operation amongst us.

That's very humbling.

The church is a prodigal church and there is much that still clings to the church and blinds the eyes of Gods people.
For the record . this matter of women keeping silent in the church in relation to what a lot of people think of it i am not settled on the matter .For I have heard foolishness out of the mouth of men and wisdom out of the mouth of women .
I have however know of one indisputable event in my own experience where at a prayer meeting and before it had started instead of an atmosphere of prayer and preperation of the heart and mind there was a small group of women there babbling away with the most foolish or inconsequential conversation and was a perfect 'fit' with what the Word of God says and what the Spirit of God demands .
and I would have wished the boldness to 'quite ' them. But being young in the faith and little in the church was simply grieved.
Though I think it was the holy Spirit that was grieved more than me or in me .
What i have said is that the grounds and foundation for not only Pauls words on the matter as also his reasoning that led him to that conclusion are clearly stated .
and if any man would understand the matter as God would have us understand the matter then we cannot do anything less than start where Paul started .
and then by Him who leads us into all truth follow his argument and in agreement reach the same conclusions .
For me it is not a great matter and certainly not one for so much contention .Which speaks more of the flesh than it does of the Spirit for the simple reason no one seems willing to go to the root of Pauls argument and start from there .

For instance Paul says women are from men nevertheless men are from women .
Meaning Man was created from the dust of the earth and woman was created from the body of Adam.
God gave the commandment and Word as to what was good and what was evil to eat and therefore to do and so by GODS knowledge of what was good and what was evil they lived .
It was then Adams job to teach Eve what he himself was taught and the knowledge as to what was good and what was evil he was to give unto her so that she also might live and not die .
I am certain of this .
That when Eve offered the fruit to Adam and he did eat what God had said not to eat .
The order of God was reversed .
For oen thing he clearly loved Eve more than God .
For another he listened to Eve rather than to God (see job and his wife)
and he obeyed Eve rather than God .
He should have rebuked her (even as Paul might have?) and taken the matter to God.
She would have died .But God would have given another (see Job?)
In that Eve then took a position of teaching Adam as to what was good and what was evil (in here eyes) you might then see what Paul was getting at .
But I prefer to be far more cautious in these matters as all should be given the strife it causes .
So I am not yet fully persuaded of the matter as men present it.
One thing also is certain .
Under the law of Moses you cannot have bishops or priests who are women .
Those who minister in the flesh and a tabernacle made with hands needs must be of the tribe of Levi .
I fear there are too many tabernacles of the flesh that demand equal rights where none are .
God is not democratic nor is he moved at all by subjective opinions of equal rights.
If then people are aproaching these matters on THAT foundation .They are on the road to a hiding.Whether theyn be men or women By the world and the devil and in the end God s disaproval.

in Christ
gerald

 

[CCW95A]

When talking about Adam, and Eve we are not talking about man vs women, we are talking about a "husband" and "wife" relationship. It was not Adam's job to "teach" his wife, his job was to "protect" his wife. This was his God given job when the Lord God placed Adam in the garden it was for him to keep which means to guard, and protect. If Adam would have done what the Lord God told him to do, there would have been no temptation of Eve. Adam sinned by letting the serpent into the garden in which his wife Eve, and himself had fellowship with God. This is exactly the same responsibly all husbands (as the head of the wife) have with their wife's today in marriage. As we are told, "give the devil no place". Adam gave place to the devil therefore causing their destruction.
Adam and Eve both had authority over all the woks of God's hands, and upon everything that creeps upon the ground, which included the serpent.
Adam was the very first "wacthmen" in the Bible who was to sound an alarm to approaching danger. As God told the prophet who also was a watchmen over Israel, that if he did not warn them of approaching danger "their blood would be upon his hands." This is why Adam gets the blame for their fall and letting sin into the world.