Women in the church

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by ATP, Dec 23, 2015.

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  1. How would you explain these passages to a nonbeliever...

    1 Cor 14:34-35 NIV women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

    1 Tim 2:11-15 NIV A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
  2. Simple. Paul needed to speak to the newly Christianized women of his day and under his authority who were not behaving well in the church meetings, as they had come out of bawdy paganism, and brought their bad manners with them, speaking out while teaching was being conducted. he was merely speaking about proper meeting etiquette that men had already learned as a matter of course from babyhood as Jewish males. It's about basic good manners.

    Same thing, except a woman of that day was not to assert herself over a man or men as their sole spiritual authority. However, a woman with the gift of prophecy or teaching can exercise it in the church, without restriction, as set into the position by her leadership. After all, Paul commended female prophets to teach...seeing as prophecy is mostly teaching the word. This passage is often understood as Paul talking about one particular woman that was causing a ruckus (as there were no definite or indefinite articles to Greek speech--such as in "the woman" or "a woman").

    A person who knows the word well can easily discard the false notions of male dominance and prevent a new believer from falling for those ideas. Thank Jesus for good disciplers!

    CCW95A likes this.
  3. I still believe 'church' and politics don't mix.

    Also there are no egos in heaven.
  4. Politics is about "human rights" = Humanism. The Bible and the Law is essentially about human responsibilities.
    There is a hierarchy of entitlements with responsibilities in both Testaments.
    Men are not to lord it over their wives and children. They do not have the right to bash, and shout, and abuse or destroy others
    through violence, or through their drunkenness, or drug taking, or power trips...
    This is all works of the flesh and a debased brutish person. Rather the scriptures command:
    Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Ephesians 5:25
    So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. verse 28
    For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: verse 29
    Read Ephesians 5:20-33 for the entire section on husbands and wives. Along with Ephesians chapter 6
    And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Ephesians 6:4

    The extended family is a model of the Church with a hierarchy of responsibilities for the welfare and provision of all the members
    of the family [kindness is from the Germanic word kin; i.e. family/tribe].
    Regardless of atheism and Humanism and all things politically correct - Jesus who created human beings and marriage for men and women,
    has the wisdom to implement social and spiritual rules that compliment the purpose of men being husbands and fathers; and for
    women to be wives and mothers. We are psychologically different in mind and emotions.
    A Christian family that follows the New Testament teachings on family hierarchy of responsibilities in love and the fruit of the Holy
    Spirit will function successfully, and be an example to others.
    The politics of women's liberation and equality has really only brought about much dysfunction and conflict in families,
    along with divorce and multiple partners.
    The scriptures are unpopular today and Christians are challenged to get with it and to move with the times. But this will only
    lead to unbelief and profanities. For example, the Lutheran Church in Sweden is headed by a very very left-wing lesbian bishop
    in an immoral relationship with another women (and caring for her young son in this arrangement).
    Depart from the scriptures and God only knows where you will end up... not the Kingdom of God.
    1Titus 3:2-5
    A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
    Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
    One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
    (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
    KingJ likes this.
  5. #5 Euphemia, Dec 23, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2015
    In the Body of Christ there is no hierarchy.

    Second, it never ceases to cause my eyebrows to arch whenever I encounter a thread on women in any Christian forum and note that the OP and most contributors are...men.

  6. No Hierarchy? Then why was 1st timothy written if there is no hierarchy?

    We as men are the leaders, and women was created for man, not vice versa (1st corinthians 9)
    And later in the chapter in verse 12 that "Man also comes through woman, but all things are from God"

    So we see that there is a mutual respect as the God given authority of man, and the God given nurturing side of the woman. And ultimately they are both directly under the authority of God. Women are not lesser than man, they just have different roles in life.

    I think there is nothing unbiblical about a woman being the worship leader, a guest speaker at a church, or leading a small group of women. There are a few situations where women can be the spiritual leader in the absence of spiritually capable men. However, if there are spiritually mature men, they should be the ones filling the authoritative roles. As this is how God created us to be.
    KingJ and Major say Amen and like this.
  7. I have no problems with women in the Church in any position as in "Christ there is no male or female". Only in a "marriage" relationship is the "man" the head of his wife.
    Euphemia likes this.
  8. That is a false interpretation. We, the Body of Christ, are the leaders in the world. Salt and light and all that jazz. God's plan is that we as men and women work together, shoulder to shoulder as man and woman did before the fall. Jesus is the GREAT EQUALIZER. In Him, men and women are restored to pre-fall status. You cannot discount Him in this.

    Have you ever seen a man with a uterus?

    Men and women of God both have equal authority in Jesus Christ.

    That is a doctrine of some churches, but not of the bible.

  9. of course I haven't seen a man with a uterus, I was quoting the bible...

    I'll stick with since men are the spiritual leaders of the home, they should be the spiritual leaders of the church. and no, I do not believe that men and women have equal roles in the church. I believe that we have different roles, however, they are equally important.

    I do understand that neither of us will change our views on our interpretation of scripture, I just hope to express my opinion so that you do not misconstrue my opinion. I do not believe that women are any lesser than men.
    KingJ, Major and Fish Catcher Jim says Amen and like this.
  10. All Christians are the spiritual leaders of their homes....and serve God as He sees fit in positions of spiritual leadership. He doesn't check the gender. He simply pours His wonderful grace gifts into people to fulfill His will to make disciples for Jesus Christ. Gender is not a consideration in His Kingdom---thank God!

    It may be that you and others do not think any less of women (maybe you do but cannot see it), but in holding these opinions, one does tend to mischaracterize the Father and how He sees the Body of Christ.
  11. I don't think I mischaracterize how God sees anyone in His family, he obviously created us differently for a reason, and I think that reason is bigger than anatomy.

    Women have natural God given talents and abilities that men done have, and Vice versa. I acknowledge the differences that God has given men and women, and praise God that where men fall short, women are there to encourage, and where women fall short, men are there to protect. and yet all at once, our differences in gender make the completeness of God and His perfection so glorious
    Major likes this.
  12. Amen, I agree, but as far as leadership goes, God has created all to work together in His Kingdom to lead equally. Gender makes no difference. The Lord Jesus is the head over all.
  13. Ephesians 5:22-33

    "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, ... "

    1 Corinthians 11:3
    "But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. "
    KingJ, Grant Melville and Fish Catcher Jim says Amen and like this.
  14. Ephesians 5:22

    "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord."
    Grant Melville and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  15. 1 Tim 2:8-11 ( Bible).........
    I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection."
    Grant Melville likes this.
  16. I am always amazed at how Galatians is used on this topic when it comes up. The passage is Galatians is not speeking of equality of the man and woman at all. Contextually it is in this Galatians setting the thrust of the passage has to do with relations between Jew and Gentile.

    Paul is amplifying the keeping of Jewish law and ordinances necessary to become saved? Paul amplifies his "emphatically no" answer to this bone of contention by paralleling it with the bond-free and male-female qualifications for becoming saved. The Jew-Gentile qualification is shown to be identical with the qualifications of the other two couplets.

    The correct subject has to do with the relationship to God of the Gentile, the bondman, and the woman. To become a saved person is to become a part of the "faith line." And Abraham is father of that line. "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5). "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God . . ." (Eph. 2:8). What is your standing with the God who saved your soul-not what is your work in the light of that standing or are you a man or a woman. Who you are by faith in Christ Jesus, instead of what your role is in the program of His kingdom.
    KingJ, Grant Melville and Fish Catcher Jim says Amen and like this.
  17. May I say to you in all respect and love that we sometimes hear someone say............
    “Your interpretation of Scripture is but one of many interpretations.”

    Now if we want to convince someone our interpretation of the Scriptures is correct, they might respond that the Bible is capable of meaning whatever one wants it to mean. This, of course, could be said of any writing. The real bottom line is the understanding of Scriptures "contextually".

    We must not wrongly conclude that men’s failure to interpret Scripture accurately proves God did not clearly reveal Himself and His message to men in the Bible. Neither is it true that the meaning of Scripture is so obscure it is virtually impossible to discern.

    There is one correct interpretation of Scripture, and the rest is often the result of Scripture twisting, whether intentional or not so as to have that Scripture be the basis for what WE WANT the Scriptures to say. That is the most prevalent form of error in the Church today.........IMO.
    KingJ, Grant Melville, Klub and 1 other person say Amen and like this.
  18. Amen! Very well said! I find that the word of God is living and to those that have a heart for the truth, the truth is revealed, to the heart for self, the truth is hidden. There's no way to get a self-centered heart convinced God's way is the right way until that heart is humble to the truth.
    Grant Melville and Major say Amen and like this.
  19. I believe these verses are speaking wholly of the aspect of teaching--in terms of what "teaching" meant to Paul and his audience.

    What was that? A teacher in Paul's day was not merely someone who stood at the front of a classroom and read a lesson text. Their relationship was master-disciple. It was an extremely authoritative and comprehensive relationship. The master didn't just teach lessons but also dictated the disciple's life. This relationship was totally authoritarian. The master had both doctrinal and disciplinary authority over the disciple. The master could sit down and tell his disciples, "It's time for us to eat. All of you go into town and get food, then bring it back to me. I'll just sit here." The master could say, "I'm not going to walk into town, I'm going to ride. All of you walk into town, get me a donkey, walk the donkey back here, then I'll ride the donkey into town while you all walk behind me." The closest concept we have today is perhaps that of a martial arts sensei: "Wax my car, paint my fence."

    When Paul said, "teach" that's the relationship that was in his mind. He did not permit men to be discipled under women--he did not permit women to be masters over male disciples. But Paul did say that older women should teach younger women--so he expected women to be discipled under women.

    These two verses are two sides of the same coin. The women in Corinth were not just making too much noise--that's not what Paul says. Paul specifically says they are asking questions. That's important because question/response was the specific methodology of the master-disciple relationship. Compare this, for instance, with:

    After three days, they found Him in the temple complex sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. -- Luke 2

    So I believe what these Corinthian women were doing were asking questions of the male elders as though they were disciples--insinuating themselves into a master-disciple relationship with the male elders. That kind of discourse was not to be had. Paul, I think, insisted on gender-segregated discipleship. Notice that this does not exclude evangelism by women to men or witnessing or "expounding the gospel more completely" where none of these involve entering into the master-disciple relationship.
    Big Moose and Waggles say Amen and like this.
  20. If there were no women in the church not much would be done at all .

    Having said that .Eve was not created from the dust of the earth ,but form the body of the man .
    Not from his feet so that he can trample her under his feet .Not from his head so she could lord it over him.
    But from his side , a help meet for him, a co worker , a wife .
    As the left hand is for the right .
    You can indeed live with just one hand and work also .
    But far better to have two .
    and if" two walk together......" and one falls the other can help them up.

    To all who like contentions and to all who seek to make contention.
    be warned what the scriptures say of it .
    and to those who seek the truth in these matters .LOOK UP the scriptures ALL that pertain to the subject not to those few scriptures every body loves to quote that would seem to uphold their particular school of theology.

    The question itself in the OP is a none starter .
    For one thing you do not discuss with the world the things of the church .
    and if an unbeliever then no answer no matter how clear and pure it might be and complete ,they will not be able to receive anything you say and you are but casting your pearls before swine.

    in Christ
    Grant Melville likes this.
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