Women in the church

[geralduk]

When talking about Adam, and Eve we are not talking about man vs women, we are talking about a "husband" and "wife" relationship. It was not Adam's job to "teach" his wife, his job was to "protect" his wife. This was his God given job when the Lord God placed Adam in the garden it was for him to keep which means to guard, and protect. If Adam would have done what the Lord God told him to do, there would have been no temptation of Eve. Adam sinned by letting the serpent into the garden in which his wife Eve, and himself had fellowship with God. This is exactly the same responsibly all husbands (as the head of the wife) have with their wife's today in marriage. As we are told, "give the devil no place". Adam gave place to the devil therefore causing their destruction.
Adam and Eve both had authority over all the woks of God's hands, and upon everything that creeps upon the ground, which included the serpent.
Adam was the very first "wacthmen" in the Bible who was to sound an alarm to approaching danger. As God told the prophet who also was a watchmen over Israel, that if he did not warn them of approaching danger "their blood would be upon his hands." This is why Adam gets the blame for their fall and letting sin into the world.

The order of God was to teach Adam. Who was "the figure of him who was to come " The last Adam. Who said "as the father taught me so teach I you"
Adam then was to teach his wife . That is also what Paul implies .
"Man shall not LIVE by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God"
Thus by that word that went forth out of Gods mouth as to what was good and what was evil they lived . It was the rejection of Gods word and doign what was right or good in their own eyes that brought them death.
For Eve "SAW that the tree was good to eat........"
Jesus also taught that it was "while men slept" that his enemy came and sowed tares . it is not unreasonable then to suppose that in one way or the other ;literally or spiritually Adam was asleep when the serpent sowed his seed in the mind of Eve .
The serpent was not the devil but was an animal used by the devil as his mouth piece and then became the embodiment of the devil . When Lucifer fell he was cast down to the EARTH . which may explain why it was in darkness and without form and void.
Be that as it may I dont think by any scripture that it was Adams job to keep the devil out of the garden .How could he?
The devil is a spiritual being .
But it was I think his duty to hide the word of God in his heart so tnat he might not sin against the Lord .
It is also my conviction that as it was Gods will that they both partake of the tree of life . It was God will that they both face temptation overcome it put off the corruptable life and partake of eternal life .
Which when a person is truly BORNagain he does but enter the eternal will of God and overcome the devil and become partaker of the divine nature. In Christ
To keep the garden and tend to it .
Meaning to ensure the garden is kept up to the standard that God had planted it and to tend it an d look after it.
Given that God also blessed them and to go out into all the world I woulod also argue that it was the will of God that what they learnt of God in the garden they were to "go and do likewise" or in other words make the whole earth progressively like the garden of God . For as they were taught there they were in turn to do the works of God through out the earth.

in Christ
gerald

 

[Klub]

I do not think you can make the case that the "husband" is the spiritual "head" of his wife. If that was the case what happens when a born again wife is married to a nonbeliever? Would her non believing husband be her spiritual head? Never happen, and even if her husband was a believer he still would not be her spiritual head. Christ is the head of the wife, in same way that Christ is the head of her husband. Why would that be? Because in Christ there is no male, female.

Gal 3:26.. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27.. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28.. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

In Christ we are all the same, and all one. What happens to the husband, wife rule where man is the head of his wife in Christ? They do not exist!!! Man being the head of his wife only happens in the natural physical marriage covenant, but in Christ there is no such a thing. If a wife is in Christ then her only head is Christ while she is sitting on the right hand of God in Christ. The same thing is true to the husband who is in Christ. Do we really think the Holy Spirit looks at the sex of a child of God before he distributes his gifts to them?
He could careless as long as Christ is their head they are open to be used by him in any way he decides.

Galations is talking about the value and worth of the Children of God, not the roles.
Slaves who are saved are still to serve their masters (1st peter 2) just as a free man who is saved is to treat his servants well. (Ephesians 6:9)
We still see rolls here on earth, but that does not negate their worth to the kingdom.


If there is no male and female in Christ, then what is the problem with crossdressing? Homosexuality or transgenderism? Obviously those are wrong, so there is a gender. The gender that God gave us, and the gender roles that he has established are not of our choice, no matter how bad our flesh wants to change them. Women and men will, and always have been two totally different creatures. It's like the difference between a diesel motor and a Gasoline motor. Both can make a vehicle go forward, but the way they do it, and where they should function are two totally different areas. The same goes for male and female. God gave women gifts that men will never have, and men have gifts that men will never have.

 

[Big Moose]

When talking about Adam, and Eve we are not talking about man vs women, we are talking about a "husband" and "wife" relationship. It was not Adam's job to "teach" his wife, his job was to "protect" his wife. This was his God given job when the Lord God placed Adam in the garden it was for him to keep which means to guard, and protect. If Adam would have done what the Lord God told him to do, there would have been no temptation of Eve. Adam sinned by letting the serpent into the garden in which his wife Eve, and himself had fellowship with God. This is exactly the same responsibly all husbands (as the head of the wife) have with their wife's today in marriage. As we are told, "give the devil no place". Adam gave place to the devil therefore causing their destruction.
Adam and Eve both had authority over all the woks of God's hands, and upon everything that creeps upon the ground, which included the serpent.
Adam was the very first "wacthmen" in the Bible who was to sound an alarm to approaching danger. As God told the prophet who also was a watchmen over Israel, that if he did not warn them of approaching danger "their blood would be upon his hands." This is why Adam gets the blame for their fall and letting sin into the world.

This raises some important questions. Why did satan go after Eve and not Adam? That old snake may have tried to fool Adam many times before without success. By getting Eve to entice Adam, did he find Adam's weakness? Most every man knows how differently we men interact with the women in our lives. All the more so with our wives, the most intimate of relationships.

Is this the reason God inspired and showed Paul the difficulties of having women in places of authority in the body? I know I temper my responses when dealing females because I know the emotional responses to plain bluntness. Men can be more blunt and straightforward with other men for this reason. I have experienced many times in my life and as a deacon specifically where a male presented his thoughts bluntly only to offend the sensibilities of the females on the council and causing extremely emotional responses. We, as men, often take extra care when dealing with women and allow for differences in gender specific feelings, emotions and sensibilities. All well and good when dealing with the physical and worldly issues.

But I think Paul is dealing with the spiritual needs and function of the church body. I am sure many women think that their feelings should be part of the discussion over spiritual matters.
This may be part of the meaning of these sections of scripture dealing with this issue.

Men do not like to disagree with women on issues when there is a possibility of making them cry or argue from the wounded and offended female perspective. I have experienced this personally and in the audience of others. Most men will avoid these events at the expense of doing what is right. It is part of the protective nature men have toward women.

I hope these truths will not cause rancor.
It is a shame that I would have to worry about that.

 

[CCW95A]

This raises some important questions. Why did satan go after Eve and not Adam?

Remember, both Adam, and Eve were together the whole time Eve was being tempted, so, I don't think the devil choose one over the other.
They both were in a world of hurt when they were standing right in front of what God commanded them not to eat. Eve made the first wrong move when she looked at the fruit and desired it to make one wise. This is the first sequence to sin. Desiring something evil starts that person down the wrong path.

Jas 1:14.. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15.. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin does not become sin when you go through the actions, it becomes sin when you think it, and then it "conceives" in that person. The actions part is what brings forth death.

As for Adam he was already in disobedience by not protecting the garden by letting the serpent into it. Sin is not just doing wrong things it is also not doing what you know to do. The scriptures tell us that God will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able, but will make a way of escape. Of course if you are in un confessed sin hearing from the Lord would be impossible as sin separates one from God.
Falling into sin has nothing to do gender.

 

[CCW95A]

Galations is talking about the value and worth of the Children of God, not the roles.
Slaves who are saved are still to serve their masters (1st peter 2) just as a free man who is saved is to treat his servants well. (Ephesians 6:9)
We still see rolls here on earth, but that does not negate their worth to the kingdom.


If there is no male and female in Christ, then what is the problem with crossdressing? Homosexuality or transgenderism? Obviously those are wrong, so there is a gender. The gender that God gave us, and the gender roles that he has established are not of our choice, no matter how bad our flesh wants to change them. Women and men will, and always have been two totally different creatures. It's like the difference between a diesel motor and a Gasoline motor. Both can make a vehicle go forward, but the way they do it, and where they should function are two totally different areas. The same goes for male and female. God gave women gifts that men will never have, and men have gifts that men will never have.

You can either choose to walk in the flesh, or the Spirit. Walk in the flesh and you will die. Walk in the Spirit then there is life Walking in the flesh can and has caused many people to cross dress and do a lot dumb things.
Obviously if man is to fulfill Gods command in replenishing the earth, I don't think that could be done if man and women were of the same sex. I would not want to give birth to a baby after seeing what my wife had to go through.

 

[CCW95A]

Is this the reason God inspired and showed Paul the difficulties of having women in places of authority in the body? I know I temper my responses when dealing females because I know the emotional responses to plain bluntness. Men can be more blunt and straightforward with other men for this reason. I have experienced many times in my life and as a deacon specifically where a male presented his thoughts bluntly only to offend the sensibilities of the females on the council and causing extremely emotional responses. We, as men, often take extra care when dealing with women and allow for differences in gender specific feelings, emotions and sensibilities. All well and good when dealing with the physical and worldly issues.

Brother Jesus nor Paul ever held back what the Lord God was speaking through them. It not up to the preacher/teacher as what to say. As the scriptures tells us if any man speaks let him speak the very Words of God, if any minister let him do it according to the ability in which God gives. As a servant of God weather male or female it is God who does the works not man. If the Lord is speaking through a person, they never have to worry about weather you offend or not offend, because it is God who is speaking through them, and every one knows it.

 

[geralduk]

Adam sinned by listening to his wife and obeying her rather than God .
"The woman whom thou gavest me to be with me ,she gave me of the tree and i did eat"
He blamed God in all but name.

But it is written that God" commanded the MAN" as to what was good and what was evil to eat.
and it was to ADAM that he called "where art thou?" Gen 3:9.

When God called Eve to account .
She blamed" the serpent beguiled me and i did eat"
When men sin they do not like to sin alone .
and even as the sin of Lucifer was to "be like God " So he tempted Eve "ye shall be like God ..."
and once she had sinned she tempted Adam .
and men and women when brought to account will always say it was anothers fault .
When in very truth it was their own.

The road of the deception of Eve began with the devil casting a slur on Gods character . THAT opened the door to the truth changed into a lie by adding N O T .
Once eve accepted the slur she then was willing to reject the truth and believe the lie . Once she believed the lie she became blind to the truth .
Once they had both eatened their eyes were opened (but not as Satan had implied ) and saw that they were naked .
Thus when they had eaten what was good in their own eyes and reasoned it would make them wise .
They continued in their sin and covered themselves with fig leaves . Which in their eyes covered their nakedness and reasoned it was enough .
But at hearing the Voice of the Lord God walking in the cool of the evening they were afraid and hid themselves among the trees .Thus in darkness and thought they were hid .
God knew where they were ,But wanted Adam to understand where he was . Both physically and spiritually .
and called them out from the darkness into His presence where it is light .
Light reveals that which is hidden .
and exposes men to the truth .
It calls men to answer for themselves and give an account of themselves and it would be good of all the saints to talk with the Lord in the evening and speak about what they have done in the day.

in Christ
gerald

 

[Euphemia]

Yes, I absolutely agree. Simply because, in the ordering of the assembly, a godly sister can't take vocal part, it doesn't mean that I shouldn't regard her is more excellent, and appreciate her spiritual substance. It doesn't mean that she can't help me as a joint of supply in the body. There is no sense of inferiority in taking a place of subjection in divine things. The Lord Himself took the lowest place, and His moral beauty was displayed in doing so.

In a right-believing, Spirit-led church, a godly sister serves the Lord shoulder to shoulder with her brother. God doesn't separate male from female. He gifts and uses them equally in the Body of Christ. We, as brothers and sisters in Christ have been elevated to before-the-fall status, where Adam and Eve, before their sin worked shoulder-to-shoulder, equally bearing the load.

In churches where women are hindered from fulfilling the whole potential of their gifting, the men (and women) therein will one day stand before the King and have to come up with an explanation as to why they stood between God and a women and said, in essence, "No, God, you cannot use her!" There will be a price to pay and a loss of reward for that, and much regret will ensue.

It is no wonder at all why the Lord tarries, seeing as He has to contend with only half a workforce due to this abominable mindset of many. Thank God that the move of the Spirit of God on many Christians and churches today is freeing them from that legalistic spirit.





.

 

[Euphemia]

Yes, I absolutely agree. Simply because, in the ordering of the assembly, a godly sister can't take vocal part, it doesn't mean that I shouldn't regard her is more excellent, and appreciate her spiritual substance. It doesn't mean that she can't help me as a joint of supply in the body. There is no sense of inferiority in taking a place of subjection in divine things. The Lord Himself took the lowest place, and His moral beauty was displayed in doing so.

In the Body of Christ, there is no high or low place!!


.

 

[Euphemia]

The church is a prodigal church

No she isn't.

 

[geralduk]

No she isn't.

Yet as I gave reason and an argument for making such a statement . You give none for its denial.
Why is that?
But to make it clear as to why the church is a prodigal church . Using the word prodigal I am clearly refering to the prodigal son.
As reference .

The church was nigh on as good and buried and in a far country by the time of the reformation.
Dominated and ruled by the Roman church full of its own traditions ,cunningly devised fables and 'immaculate conceptions that dazzled the imagination but blinded the mind to the truth .
It was rich increased with goods and in its own eyes in need of nothing. Full of idolitory and was as much in the world as the world was in it .
That seed of the Apostolic church was buried save for a very small number still bearign witness to the truth but persecuted often to the death by the above .
That Apostolic church died was buried but the seed was not lost and the first evidence of the life in that seed was when Luthor got the understanding that "the just shall live by faith" despite all the forces of hell flamed against it ,the truth and the church not only grew but increased and God gave more and more understanding to the church.
To which the Roman church could not withstand save by the rack and the fire .Thus not only proving she was in error but was her own witness by her reaction to the Gospel. Even as the religious leaders were of Christ.

Since then and by degree that understanding has grown and the church has moved forward .Notwithstanding many who stood still and built their own denominations thinking like Peter that the understanding and revelation of heaven was ALL the light denied that light God gave further .
So even as the prodigal son had to leave from that far country and make his way to his fathers house .
So too then is the church being perfected and those willing " looking for and hastening to the coming of the Lord"
The church is not yet perfected if ti was Paul would have said so .We are perfect on the way to perfection.
But that those ministers of God called of God and enabled by God to perfect the body till we all come to the unity of THE faith .
If it says we all come to a unity of the faith and if some need the eyes of the understanding opened as with all the saints .Then clearly that church which is of God is not yet in a unity of the faith for if faith comes by hearing and understanding the Word of God ,then to have a unity of THE faith there needs must also be a unity of understanding .
Even this forum proves that that is not yet the case as do many others as also the churches.
Thus it is beyond dispute the church is a prodigal church .
That in the book of revelation the only church that did NOT need to repent was the first one . suggests then that todays church also needs to repent .
Indeed the Lord is OUTSIDE knocking on its door .Which is a call to ALL to repent .The promise however is to those who have ears to hear and open the door .

in Christ
gerald

 

[Complete]

How would you explain these passages to a nonbeliever...

1 Cor 14:34-35 NIV women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Tim 2:11-15 NIV A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Hi ATP,

It is written, as all of Scripture is, - for our learning.
It is simple, and straightforward.
You either accept it or you do not.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[CCW95A]

How would you explain these passages to a nonbeliever...

1 Cor 14:34-35 NIV women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Tim 2:11-15 NIV A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Try reading the entire verse so that you will know what kind of "women" is to be silent in the Church. What kind of women is to ask their "husbands" at home?
What kind of "women" is married to a "man"? A "wife"!!!! Who is suppose to be quite in the Church? A Wife, not women (female)

1 Cor 14:34-35 NIV women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Now that we know what kind of "women" is to be silent in the Church we can (should) understand this scripture.

1 Tim 2:11-15 NIV A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Women in this verse is talking about "wife's" not women (female). Paul refers back to Adam, and Eve who were married. He is talking about a husband, and wife situation. I have "authority" over my wife because I am her head, but I surely do not have "authority" over someone else's wife, or any other women. That would be dumb!!! I would not allow any man to have "authority" over my wife, that would be dumb to!!!. Would you be OK with some man coming over to your house and taking "authority" over your wife? How about at Church?

The problem is not the Word of God, it is our "understanding" of the Word of God!!!

 

[Euphemia]

Yet as I gave reason and an argument for making such a statement . You give none for its denial.
Why is that?

The Church of Jesus Christ is not prodigal because she follows after the Bridegroom wherever He goes. If you are part of her then you will do as she does. Jesus will come back for a spotless Bride, one without spot or wrinkle. That is the Church I am a member of. What one are you in? He doesn't like it when people who claim to be His own criticize and malign His Bride as if they aren't a part of her. The Bride isn't mentally ill and riddled with self-recrimination so as to do self harm. Either you are in or you're out.


.

 

[geralduk]

The Church of Jesus Christ is not prodigal because she follows after the Bridegroom wherever He goes. If you are part of her then you will do as she does. Jesus will come back for a spotless Bride, one without spot or wrinkle. That is the Church I am a member of. What one are you in? He doesn't like it when people who claim to be His own criticize and malign His Bride as if they aren't a part of her. The Bride isn't mentally ill and riddled with self-recrimination so as to do self harm. Either you are in or you're out.


.

A denial is no argument.
I refuse to delude myself as to the condition of the church of which I was baptised into and sealed by the Holy Ghost.
and while I have some 'dim ' idea of what I am in Christ and what is the exceedingly abundant power that is towards me who believes .I have seen what is written in the scriptures ,That Paul was speaking to christians that he was praying that the eyes of their understanding may be opened ........... "That God would give to every true BORN child of God the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him ....."
The church does not know God as it thinks it does . The vast majority of christians have but heard of Him like Job .
At best they "know the father and their sins have been forgiven " But for a certainty very few "know Him who is from the beginning " How many " have overcome the wicked one " you judge .
God is interested in the truth and demands we speak the truth in the inward man . I while I will confess the glory of God and Jesus Christ as my Saviour Lord and King . I do not yet see all things yet made subject under Him." For he sitteth on the right hand of Father waiting till all things are made subject under Him"
I do not see a great Unity of THE faith let alone a unity of understanding as to the scriptures over and above any differences in maturity .
I do see a unity more or less on being BORN again and the nessecity for being so but on little else .
Where have I said anything different about the Lord coming for a Spotless bride etc?
But if those ministers of God as listed in Ephesians are to do their work by the Holy Ghost how will the Bride be perfected if the church in the main does not believe the Word of God?
How can the church which is His body "know Him who is from the beginning " When they do not believe what God has written "in the beginning"?
But for the sake of peace with the world has compromised the Word of God and mixed truth with error at best (if that can be said) at worst has rejected the truth of God and believed what the world says.
How can two walk together unless they agree?
I have talked to pastors of churches who say they are pastors are in name they may be so but who confessed in my ears that they dare not preach the whole truth lest they lose half of their congregations! I said to them lose them! if needs must but preach the truth,.
I know of a man of God and a faithful shepherd of the flock invited to pastor a church that had not had a pastor for over 5 years or more.
He accepted the invitation .But a clique so set in its ways objected to the length of his preaching and openly began to look at their watches and make it known he was taking too long.Being a faithful man of God he preached as he was led by the Holy ghost and not by the dictates of men .
They then began to get up while he was still speaking and stack the chairs!
He resigned . One of the congregation who was present at his notice of resignation said "this is not the will of God" They were right . But there clearly was not enough of them who wanted it and were willing to reprove the men and women who thought this was THEIR church and they ruled the house of God.
I knew of a church where the deacons ruled the church not the pastor . Where the accountant ruled and not the Spirit of God.
Yet they as others would be offended still if I said to them the wrongness of it .
Truly The church is a prodigal church .
You might say I cannot measure the whole church by one or a few churches ?
A little measure changes the whole lump. So says the scriptures.
But have you not read church history? How it is of only the last 400 years or so since the reformation that the church has in any way progressed line upon line and precept upon precept?
Yet we are now in a reverse reformation and doctrines and practices long ago proved beyond all reasonable doubt to be false and detrimental to any true spiritual life are nor being accepted .
The prodigal son was in a far country when he came to his senses or himself and thought thoughts of repentance and then did acts of repentance and began to go back to His fathers house as of the beginning .
While i pointed out revelation 2 and that ALL the churches save the first one needed to repent . You apeared to ignore that fact
. You are mixing what we are or the church will become In Christ with the actual manifestation of it .
"Be ye transformed by the renewal of your minds" Are you really suggesting that you are now perfect?
Without spot or wrinkle?
Yes we may come into the presence of God and" to the blood that speaks of better things than the blood of Abel"
But how many actually go into the Most Holy place?
But rather through false teaching have been led to believe in very truth that to come to the place of sacrifice is enough or to eb BORNagain is the be all and end all to our salvation.
When the scripture says "we are made kings and priests unto God"
Even as we are called and drawn to the cross . We are by the same Spirit called and drawn to enter the most Holy place.
But even as the tabernacle was made after the pattern of heaven so then a priest needs must wash his hands (work) and feet(walk) before he can do so as well as put off the old man and the worlds cloths and put on the robes of the righteousness and Christ before he can do so .
and I will still say that only ONE can enter into the most Holy place and into the presence of God .
But where as it was under the old promises the high priest but once a year . Now it is and must be IN Christ and in a unity of THE faith and where we are ONE as even as He is one with the father .
and where we are one with each other and with the Lord and He with us .Being of the same mind of the same Spirit .
He being our High priest in the tabernacle not made with hands and we after the same order ministering according to our calling after the same pattern laid down or manifested in the wilderness .
But in very truth and before God I do not believe that the vast majority have yet to know Him who is from the beginning nor yet have answered the call and entered into the Holy place. But only as it were afar off . For while the whole tabernacle is holy they do minister according to the natural light of the outer court. and thus according to the natural perceptions and reasonings of the mind and heart of man . This at best is very limited at worst you can be working against the very purposes of God that you are praying may be fulfilled.
But in the Holy place there is no natural light .There is nothing that the natural mind or indeed eyes can fathom or understand .
But the light is of the 7 branched lamp and the bread of the shrew bread. Here then we walk by faith according to the Light of the Spirit and the truth of the Word of God.
He were learn that while God is our father ;praise the Lord, and our sins are forgiven . He is not our servant be we His.
and albeit sons we are to have the mind of Christ .
That it is not the praying of MY father . But it is of the nature of "OUR Father ........" Thus in some measure signifying that we carry in our hearts not only our own needs but primarily the needs of all our brethren and the Work and good of the church.Even as the High priest carried the stones of the tribes of Israel upon his breast .
Serving God daily and as signified by the alter of incense "pray without ceasing."
The promised land is not heaven. For there are no giants or cities to conquer in heaven.
As the majority of the church thinks that to wander in the wilderness is the NORM of a christians life than it is a prodigal church for we have taken our unbelief and justified it by saying that is the will of God !
The children of Israel only took 40 DAYS to get to the promised land . and if you consider that the day of Pentecost was only 40 days later one does wonder what the people fo God are filled with? "Their own ways" Or the Spirit of God ? In the light of the above . For it was only after "they entered not in because of unbelief " that they wandered in the wilderness for 40 YEARS .
What more can I say?
Some may say already too much.
But to any who have a mind Godward should be able to recognise the truth when they read it .
and if they do not then prayerfully consider what the Spirit sayeth to the churches in the first few chapters of the book of revelation and consider that which says much less but says so much more.
Your last comment is not befitting a child of God even if by your perceptions and reasoning thought I was wrong.

in Christ
gerald

 

[Big Moose]

Try reading the entire verse so that you will know what kind of "women" is to be silent in the Church. What kind of women is to ask their "husbands" at home?
What kind of "women" is married to a "man"? A "wife"!!!! Who is suppose to be quite in the Church? A Wife, not women (female)

1 Cor 14:34-35 NIV women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Now that we know what kind of "women" is to be silent in the Church we can (should) understand this scripture.

1 Tim 2:11-15 NIV A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Women in this verse is talking about "wife's" not women (female). Paul refers back to Adam, and Eve who were married. He is talking about a husband, and wife situation. I have "authority" over my wife because I am her head, but I surely do not have "authority" over someone else's wife, or any other women. That would be dumb!!! I would not allow any man to have "authority" over my wife, that would be dumb to!!!. Would you be OK with some man coming over to your house and taking "authority" over your wife? How about at Church?

The problem is not the Word of God, it is our "understanding" of the Word of God!!!

Ok, let's follow this line of thought. Do pastors and elders have authority over the members of the local body of believers? Yes they do.
So, if a woman is a pastor or an elder, then she has authority over the members of that local church, including her own husband.
This automatically flies in the face of scripture. Now you must fight over whether a female pastor can be married. Good luck with that one.
The argument on whether another man having authority over my wife is silly. We are not talking about authority over decision making or physical directing. The authority I am speaking about is spiritual authority. Interpreting scripture and doctrine development. Taking spiritual inventory of the church body for the purpose of strengthening the church and maturation of growth in the Word.
So yes, the pastor and elders of my local church body have authority over myself and my wife as well as all the members attached to the body.

 

[CCW95A]

Ok, let's follow this line of thought. Do pastors and elders have authority over the members of the local body of believers? Yes they do.
So, if a woman is a pastor or an elder, then she has authority over the members of that local church, including her own husband.
This automatically flies in the face of scripture. Now you must fight over whether a female pastor can be married. Good luck with that one.
The argument on whether another man having authority over my wife is silly. We are not talking about authority over decision making or physical directing. The authority I am speaking about is spiritual authority. Interpreting scripture and doctrine development. Taking spiritual inventory of the church body for the purpose of strengthening the church and maturation of growth in the Word.
So yes, the pastor and elders of my local church body have authority over myself and my wife as well as all the members attached to the body.

First off, a women teaching in a Church setting is not teaching her husband, but the body of Christ. Secondly, the women is a "wife", and she is not teaching in a marriage relationship setting to her husband, but in Christ to other believers. This was not unusual as Apollos (a man) was taken aside in which Priscilla (a woman) and her husband Aquila taught Apollos more accurately the way of the Lord. (Acts 18:24-26)

There is no such a thing as a person having "spiritual" authority over another person. The only person who has spiritual authority over another human being is Jesus Christ himself. There is an "authority" to "rule" those in a assembly or Church, but that rule, and authority is nowhere near how we think it is suppose to be. Jesus gives us a clue here.......

Mar 10:42.. And Jesus called them to him and said to them, "You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.
Mar 10:43.. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
Mar 10:44.. and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all.

The Church is not to be run like the fleshly carnal world. This worlds "authority" "lord" it over their employees, and you must to do what they say or else.
In the corporate world the "CEO" is at the top, and all the Indians are at the bottom, but not so with the Church. It is the complete opposite to where the saints are at the top, and all the leaders are at the bottom!!! Jesus said if you want to be great then you must the servant, and slave to all!!! Why? Because the body of Christ is the most important part, not its leaders. That was the whole purpose for the five fold ministry, as they are gifts given to the Church by Christ as they are not the Church, the body is!!! The most precious part of the body of Christ is the one least expected to have any honor at all, or the newest member who just got saved, not those who we consider in authority as a pastor or any other ministry gift.

1Co 12:23.. and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,

Even Jesus came not to be served to, but to serve. It is called a "servant leader". The Apostle Paul fully understood this.

Eph 3:8.. To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,

As this world would say, "do what I say", but in the Church it is never do what I say, but "do as I do". The word "rule" as Paul said....

1Ti 5:17.. Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

The word, "rule" means, "to stand before, or to lead" All leaders in the Church are to "lead" from the front, not from behind. In other words, do not do what I say, but do as I do.

1Pe 5:2.. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3.. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

1Ti 4:12.. Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

How does the pastor/teacher, or anyone in authority in any assembly or Church suppose to "rule", or have "authority" with "oversight" to it's congregation?
Only by being a "example" in how to live!!! That is the only authority they have. No pastor teacher is Lord over anyone as they only serve the body of Christ.

There is no greater power to change a persons life than finding a man or woman who is living the life of God in reality in front of others. That is power people will follow after. That is authority, and it is given to both men, and woman equally!!

Heb 13:7.. Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.

Who wouldn't want to know how imitate a life filled with all the love of God? Everyone wants to know!! This is leadership.

 

[Euphemia]

A denial is no argument.
I refuse to delude myself as to the condition of the church of which I was baptised into and sealed by the Holy Ghost.
and while I have some 'dim ' idea of what I am in Christ and what is the exceedingly abundant power that is towards me who believes .I have seen what is written in the scriptures ,That Paul was speaking to christians that he was praying that the eyes of their understanding may be opened ........... "That God would give to every true BORN child of God the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him ....."
The church does not know God as it thinks it does . The vast majority of christians have but heard of Him like Job .
At best they "know the father and their sins have been forgiven " But for a certainty very few "know Him who is from the beginning " How many " have overcome the wicked one " you judge .
God is interested in the truth and demands we speak the truth in the inward man . I while I will confess the glory of God and Jesus Christ as my Saviour Lord and King . I do not yet see all things yet made subject under Him." For he sitteth on the right hand of Father waiting till all things are made subject under Him"
I do not see a great Unity of THE faith let alone a unity of understanding as to the scriptures over and above any differences in maturity .
I do see a unity more or less on being BORN again and the nessecity for being so but on little else .
Where have I said anything different about the Lord coming for a Spotless bride etc?
But if those ministers of God as listed in Ephesians are to do their work by the Holy Ghost how will the Bride be perfected if the church in the main does not believe the Word of God?
How can the church which is His body "know Him who is from the beginning " When they do not believe what God has written "in the beginning"?
But for the sake of peace with the world has compromised the Word of God and mixed truth with error at best (if that can be said) at worst has rejected the truth of God and believed what the world says.
How can two walk together unless they agree?
I have talked to pastors of churches who say they are pastors are in name they may be so but who confessed in my ears that they dare not preach the whole truth lest they lose half of their congregations! I said to them lose them! if needs must but preach the truth,.
I know of a man of God and a faithful shepherd of the flock invited to pastor a church that had not had a pastor for over 5 years or more.
He accepted the invitation .But a clique so set in its ways objected to the length of his preaching and openly began to look at their watches and make it known he was taking too long.Being a faithful man of God he preached as he was led by the Holy ghost and not by the dictates of men .
They then began to get up while he was still speaking and stack the chairs!
He resigned . One of the congregation who was present at his notice of resignation said "this is not the will of God" They were right . But there clearly was not enough of them who wanted it and were willing to reprove the men and women who thought this was THEIR church and they ruled the house of God.
I knew of a church where the deacons ruled the church not the pastor . Where the accountant ruled and not the Spirit of God.
Yet they as others would be offended still if I said to them the wrongness of it .
Truly The church is a prodigal church .
You might say I cannot measure the whole church by one or a few churches ?
A little measure changes the whole lump. So says the scriptures.
But have you not read church history? How it is of only the last 400 years or so since the reformation that the church has in any way progressed line upon line and precept upon precept?
Yet we are now in a reverse reformation and doctrines and practices long ago proved beyond all reasonable doubt to be false and detrimental to any true spiritual life are nor being accepted .
The prodigal son was in a far country when he came to his senses or himself and thought thoughts of repentance and then did acts of repentance and began to go back to His fathers house as of the beginning .
While i pointed out revelation 2 and that ALL the churches save the first one needed to repent . You apeared to ignore that fact
. You are mixing what we are or the church will become In Christ with the actual manifestation of it .
"Be ye transformed by the renewal of your minds" Are you really suggesting that you are now perfect?
Without spot or wrinkle?
Yes we may come into the presence of God and" to the blood that speaks of better things than the blood of Abel"
But how many actually go into the Most Holy place?
But rather through false teaching have been led to believe in very truth that to come to the place of sacrifice is enough or to eb BORNagain is the be all and end all to our salvation.
When the scripture says "we are made kings and priests unto God"
Even as we are called and drawn to the cross . We are by the same Spirit called and drawn to enter the most Holy place.
But even as the tabernacle was made after the pattern of heaven so then a priest needs must wash his hands (work) and feet(walk) before he can do so as well as put off the old man and the worlds cloths and put on the robes of the righteousness and Christ before he can do so .
and I will still say that only ONE can enter into the most Holy place and into the presence of God .
But where as it was under the old promises the high priest but once a year . Now it is and must be IN Christ and in a unity of THE faith and where we are ONE as even as He is one with the father .
and where we are one with each other and with the Lord and He with us .Being of the same mind of the same Spirit .
He being our High priest in the tabernacle not made with hands and we after the same order ministering according to our calling after the same pattern laid down or manifested in the wilderness .
But in very truth and before God I do not believe that the vast majority have yet to know Him who is from the beginning nor yet have answered the call and entered into the Holy place. But only as it were afar off . For while the whole tabernacle is holy they do minister according to the natural light of the outer court. and thus according to the natural perceptions and reasonings of the mind and heart of man . This at best is very limited at worst you can be working against the very purposes of God that you are praying may be fulfilled.
But in the Holy place there is no natural light .There is nothing that the natural mind or indeed eyes can fathom or understand .
But the light is of the 7 branched lamp and the bread of the shrew bread. Here then we walk by faith according to the Light of the Spirit and the truth of the Word of God.
He were learn that while God is our father ;praise the Lord, and our sins are forgiven . He is not our servant be we His.
and albeit sons we are to have the mind of Christ .
That it is not the praying of MY father . But it is of the nature of "OUR Father ........" Thus in some measure signifying that we carry in our hearts not only our own needs but primarily the needs of all our brethren and the Work and good of the church.Even as the High priest carried the stones of the tribes of Israel upon his breast .
Serving God daily and as signified by the alter of incense "pray without ceasing."
The promised land is not heaven. For there are no giants or cities to conquer in heaven.
As the majority of the church thinks that to wander in the wilderness is the NORM of a christians life than it is a prodigal church for we have taken our unbelief and justified it by saying that is the will of God !
The children of Israel only took 40 DAYS to get to the promised land . and if you consider that the day of Pentecost was only 40 days later one does wonder what the people fo God are filled with? "Their own ways" Or the Spirit of God ? In the light of the above . For it was only after "they entered not in because of unbelief " that they wandered in the wilderness for 40 YEARS .
What more can I say?
Some may say already too much.
But to any who have a mind Godward should be able to recognise the truth when they read it .
and if they do not then prayerfully consider what the Spirit sayeth to the churches in the first few chapters of the book of revelation and consider that which says much less but says so much more.
Your last comment is not befitting a child of God even if by your perceptions and reasoning thought I was wrong.

in Christ
gerald

An assertion maligning the true Bride of Christ is no premise for any kind of godly discourse.


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[geralduk]

An assertion maligning the true Bride of Christ is no premise for any kind of godly discourse.


.

Then if you count the church is the Bride you must then resolve your disagreement with the Lord . For as the scriptures say in rev "listen to what the Spirit says to the churches"
As you and others are not willing even to consider what the scriptures says on the matter perhaps your right it is not possible to have any Godly discourse on the matter.
But for grace sake.
"If the Bride must get herself ready" She clearly then must be unready and must get herself ready .
If the ministers of God as listed in Ephesians are; under God and by the Holy Spirit are to perfect the church then that means the Bride then pray tell me while IN Christ and by God in His eyes his Word is as a thing already done ." Calling those things that are not as though they were " Does that mean that we are all perfected ?
This is a discourse.
A reasonable question by one child of God to another ?
But my answer to that is that even Paul did not count himself yet perfect . Yet he talked to people already perfect!
What of John the Baptist? Was he not the greatest by the Lords own words born of a woman? Was he not saved? counted righteous ?
Yet he confessed he was a "FRIEND of the bridegroom " and not then a member of the Bride .
Now he in humility only saw himself as that . God may or may not have thought otherwise .For in the final matter it is God who does the choosing .
I again poimt out to you that of all the SEVEN churches as listed in rev 2 .Only ONE needed not to repent .
Indeed it was the LAST church that in its own eyes was " rich, increased in goods and in need of nothing " But which in the Lords eyes was "wretched poor and in need of eye salve" and did not even know it .
In all truth and before God can you really say that THAT church was ready? or even fit to be in the Bride?
Yet did not the Lord and the Spirit of God give her time to repent? and therefore get ready?
To get the eye salve so that she might see aright?
In truth were not all the churches found ot be at fault in one way or another?
Yet to each did not the Lord have a message of hope?
This is a discourse.
"ALL scripture is inspirred of God and is GOOD for reproof CORRECTION and instruction in righteousness " and to furnish every man of God unto good works.................
Where does that NOT apply to any child of God? and to the church.
Was that not the roman churches great failure at the reformation?
Holding to her traditions above the Word of God ?
It would seem that today we have people holding only to those words of scripture that they like ; above ALL scripture that they might not .
This is a discourse.
Where I raise up reasonable objections with scripture to the prevailing idea that all is wonderful and in perfect harmony with God and the Word of God.
It is not.
For the church is to be the salt of the earth.
What purpose has the salt? If not to stop the meat form rotting? To preserve it.
I dont know where you live ,But I live in the UK and this country that once knew the truth preserved the truth and sent out missionaries to all the world preaching the truth is now full of idols and is now acceptiogn errors it once so rightly rejected .
A parliament that has made equal in law what is not equal in fact and has then to all intents and purposes made a lie equal to the truth in law . This is the same parliament that was once called the mother of parliaments!
What does that then say of the church? Where is it?
Too busy celebrating? I think rather than weeping before God . happy in the knowledge(?) that they are saved. But careless of the untold numbers chained to the chariots of hell .
The Bride will be of the same mind and heart beat as her husband a "help meet " Two walking together .
What then was the heart beat of the Lord? and waht message are we supposed to preach?
Prosperity? for ourselves and destruction for all for the devil can take the hind most?
After me you can go first?
We need a revival in the UK . The church needs a revival of which I am a part.
I see nowhere where the church does not need one .
You might argue that in those countries where my brethren are being persecuted imprisoned and cruelly put to death. They know more about real christianity than we do.
Will it take then the same circumstances here or where you are to bring the people of God to their knees?
and begin to pray .
This is a discourse but i fear it is but one way .

in Christ
gerald

 

[geralduk]

An assertion maligning the true Bride of Christ is no premise for any kind of godly discourse.


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To Euphemia

An assertion with no scriptural argument to back it up is indeed but an assertion.
A denial which is but another assertion that says "thats not true" with out a biblical argument to back it up is by the same but an assertion. and no one should give it any weight .
Even if I was wrong for my sake and for any other who are also troubled at the state of the church you should substantiate your assertion that I am wrong .
For while I do not count my self infallible (though some foolishly do) I do by my argument show where my 'fault' lies.
You by your assertion neither prove yours or undermine or correct mine.

In Christ
gerald