Positional Presence

Fish I ALWAYS read the Word closely.

In the context of what I was dealing with in THIS thread, Rev 3:21 is about Jesus' throne on EARTH, NOT heaven.

What you allude to as The throne of God and the Lamb is two different things and is still NOT in heaven. It is IN the New Jerusalem, which is ON earth. Rev 22: 1 & 3.

I don't know how you go from Col 3:1-2, which IS where Jesus is now, to where we are headed. You seem to forget Jesus is headed BACK here, or do you NOT believe in His return? Where in scripture does it show we or Jesus are going to heaven AFTER He returns? Do you also believe there are "mansions" in heaven?
 
Stan--

As is usually the case--your theology is based on your beliefs---rather than your beliefs based on true theology. God the Father is in Heaven. Jesus sat down with his Father in His throne. Jesus invites overcomers to sit down with Him in His throne. New Jerusalem descends from Heaven for the 1000 year Millenium--a literal Heavenly city on earth----but our eternity will not be spent on earth----it will be spent in Heaven--where the Father dwells. Jesus' great desire is that "we be with Him where He is"---and He is with the Father.

Yes--I do believe John 14:2 that Jesus is preparing a place for us. I don't know what these "mansions" are in an eternal realm---but they are in the Heavenly realm, not the earthly realm. Are you holding to a doctrine similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses who do not believe Christians go to Heaven, but will inhabit a refurbished earth? Just curious--because it is doctrinally unsound.
 
FYI the New Jerusalem comes DOWN to earth AFTER the millennium, Rev 20, as clearly shown in Rev 21.
I suggest you actually READ Revelation, and then read it again. Eternal LIFE is just that, Eternal LIFE.
My beliefs are based on the Bible...I don't know where you get yours. Matthew 25:46 shows Jesus talking about Eternal LIFE.
It's NOT a refurbished earth Fish, it is a NEW earth. Seems you refuse to read or comment on Rev 21?
If Eternal LIFE is doctrinal unsound, why don't you show how it is? What exactly is the benefit of salvation Fish?
How about verses just in John? 4:14, 5:24, 6:40, 6:47, 6:54, 10:28, 12:25, 12:50, 17:2-3.
 
Revelation 21 is all about Heaven, and the Heavenly Jerusalem. We as believers will not be limited as to where we can go in Heaven. We will be with Jesus and the Father---earth will actually be part of Heaven. All I read is that we will be with God and the Lamb, and his dwelling place is Heaven. It is something to rejoice in, not argue about. You can believe you will only dwell on a new earth---that's fine. My hope is in Heaven---and I believe the Heavens will be infinite---who knows what God will have his servants doing, or have his servants going! It is a very exciting thought! God bless!
 
Please read Rev 21:2 Fish. If you still can't see it then I'm afraid you are BOUND by your own doctrines.

"I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband."

 
Surprisingly many Baptists are of the belief that we are bound for Eternal Heaven, not Eternal Life. I was dating a Baptist woman a couple of years ago that decided to break up with me because I didn't believe in an eternal heavenly existence.
Many Christian read the words "Eternal Life" but in their minds they think it means Heaven. I can't tell you why, except that it must be their doctrinal upbringing, and NOT what they actually read in scripture.
Apparently in some peoples minds, Jesus didn't mean ETERNAL LIFE all the times He said it.
 
Please read Rev 21:2 Fish. If you still can't see it then I'm afraid you are BOUND by your own doctrines.

"I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband."
" But you have come to Mount Zion,to the city of the living God,the heavenly Jerusalem.You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn,whose names are written in heaven.You have come to God, the Judge of all,to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediatorof a new covenant, and to the sprinkled bloodthat speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.(Heb.12:22-24)

Our entire hope is in Heaven. Hallelujah! We are come to Mount Zion, and to an innuerable company of angles---our home is a Heavenly one. Praise God for those Biblical Promises!
 
Your hope maybe Fish, but not those who understand scripture. This verse is about Jesus and how He represents all these things from the OT. ONLY Moses was allowed on Mount Zion, and no one could even touch it for fear of dying. Now under the NEW Covenant with Jesus we have access to ALL of God, in ways believers NEVER did in the OT. These verses contrast what God and all the OT are no longer about, as depicted CLEARLY in verses 18-21, which you more than likely failed to even read. You also probably failed to read Heb 8 where it teaches about how Holy things in the OT are copies of what is in heaven. I suppose you think these are literal physical originals in heaven?
All you basically do is quote verses you THINK support your view and IGNORE those that show it is wrong. You have no response for those scriptures I have given you and you answers none of my questions. This tells me you DON'T read the Bible with ANY comprehension, just a purely, as needed, eisegetical fashion.
I even quoted Rev 21:2 for you, where it plainly says COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN, and you still won't accept it. You appear to accept the so-called promises you want to and completely ignore what the scriptures say about our future as believers in the NEW earth. So be it...you'll just be in for a real shocker when Jesus returns and you are resurrected to be with Him for ETERNITY. I won't discuss this with YOU any longer. You have been properly instructed.
 
I would like to present my concept concerning the New Jerusalem and the New Heaven. IMO I believe the kingdom of Heaven is wherever the Father's and Son's thrones are, making the NJ and extension (if you will), of the New Heaven; "the throne of God (Father) and of the Lamb (Son, Word) shall be in it" (Rev 20:3).

The Bride (saints, Body of Christ), the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Rev 22:17) will foever be in the NJ (and the NH) upon its descent, thus the New City "adorning" the Bride (saints).

"Prepared as a Bride adorned for her Husband; Christ is the husband, or bridegroom, and the church is His spouse, and Bride; and in these characters they will both appear at this time, when the marriage between them will be consummated: and the Church may be said to be prepared as such, when all the elect of God are gathered in, the number of the saints is perfected; when the good work of grace is finished in them all, and they are all arrayed in the righteousness of Christ: and to be "adorned," when not only they are clothed with the robe of righteousness, and garments of salvation, and are beautified with the graces of the Spirit, but also with the bright robes of immortality and glory." JG

What will be our new being? A hybrid (if you will) consisting of an indestructible physical body like the Lord's (Phil 3:21; Luke 24:39; 1 John 3:2) along with our present spirit which has already been redeemed thus already made anew, minus the old nature ("old man") leaving only the new man ("new nature") and the Holy Spirit (John 14:16 Rev 22:17).
 
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Stan...I'm confused about this statement of yours; are they not contradictory?:


Why would heaven be not real physical things? Not earthly physical, but they are not ghosty whosty airy things, just not earthly.

I'm confused as to what you are saying.

If it has to do with Fish's post directly, well.....I'm not reading his posts any more.

IMO, heaven does not contain physical things, but the spiritual reality of God's Holy things on earth, IN God's mind if you will.
Yes I was trying to get Fish to see that 'mansions' are NOT physical rooms, and we as physical beings will not be consigned to a spiritual place. Corporeal beings cannot exist in a non-corporeal place.
 
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I would like to present my concept concerning the New Jerusalem and the New Heaven. IMO I believe the kingdom of Heaven is wherever the Father's and Son's thrones are, making the NJ and extension (if you will), of the New Heaven; "the throne of God (Father) and of the Lamb (Son, Word) shall be in it" (Rev 20:3).

The Bride (saints, Body of Christ), the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Rev 22:17) will foever be in the NJ (and the NH) upon its descent, thus the New City "adorning" the Bride (saints).

"Prepared as a Bride adorned for her Husband; Christ is the husband, or bridegroom, and the church is His spouse, and Bride; and in these characters they will both appear at this time, when the marriage between them will be consummated: and the Church may be said to be prepared as such, when all the elect of God are gathered in, the number of the saints is perfected; when the good work of grace is finished in them all, and they are all arrayed in the righteousness of Christ: and to be "adorned," when not only they are clothed with the robe of righteousness, and garments of salvation, and are beautified with the graces of the Spirit, but also with the bright robes of immortality and glory." JG

What will be our new being? A hybrid (if you will) consisting of an indestructible physical body like the Lord's (Phil 3:21; Luke 24:39; 1 John 3:2) along with our present spirit which has already been redeemed thus already made anew, minus the old nature ("old man") leaving only the new man ("new nature") and the Holy Spirit (John 14:16 Rev 22:17).

Thanks for clarifying your position on the POSITIONAL thread that you started NC.
I don't know who JG is that you've quoted, but the issue of the Bride is another sticky issue that would probably be served best on it's own thread. I am more interested in YOUR views than someone NOT in this thread. Your view IS consistent with scripture.
 
IMO, heaven does not contain physical things, but the spiritual reality of God's Holy things on earth, IN God's mind if you will.
Yes I was trying to get Fish to see that 'mansions' are NOT physical rooms, and we as physical beings will not be consigned to a spiritual place. Corporeal beings cannot exist in a non-corporeal place.


I would remind you that Jesus himself stated "a spirit does not have flesh and bones as I have" (See Luke 24)---and he ate fish in front of them. We will have physical bodies in Heaven, but they will be resurrection bodies that are quite different than the flesh and blood we have now. Jesus was able to walk through walls, appear at will, etc----yet he stated he was not a "spirit", but flesh and bone. This tells us that Heaven is indeed a physical place----though we are completely unable to understand it with our finite wisdom and understanding. Scientists say that there could be as many as 11 dimensions in our physical world. So who knows how things will appear in a Heavenly realm. Stan, you are very mislead in your theology. If heaven is not a physical place, then you are denying that Jesus rose from the dead BODILY, and ascended into Heaven----a cardinal belief of Christianity.
 
I would like to present my concept concerning the New Jerusalem and the New Heaven. IMO I believe the kingdom of Heaven is wherever the Father's and Son's thrones are, making the NJ and extension (if you will), of the New Heaven; "the throne of God (Father) and of the Lamb (Son, Word) shall be in it" (Rev 20:3).

The Bride (saints, Body of Christ), the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Rev 22:17) will foever be in the NJ (and the NH) upon its descent, thus the New City "adorning" the Bride (saints).

"Prepared as a Bride adorned for her Husband; Christ is the husband, or bridegroom, and the church is His spouse, and Bride; and in these characters they will both appear at this time, when the marriage between them will be consummated: and the Church may be said to be prepared as such, when all the elect of God are gathered in, the number of the saints is perfected; when the good work of grace is finished in them all, and they are all arrayed in the righteousness of Christ: and to be "adorned," when not only they are clothed with the robe of righteousness, and garments of salvation, and are beautified with the graces of the Spirit, but also with the bright robes of immortality and glory." JG

What will be our new being? A hybrid (if you will) consisting of an indestructible physical body like the Lord's (Phil 3:21; Luke 24:39; 1 John 3:2) along with our present spirit which has already been redeemed thus already made anew, minus the old nature ("old man") leaving only the new man ("new nature") and the Holy Spirit (John 14:16 Rev 22:17).

I agree NT. Seems to me that the Church and the NJ will be very hard to distinguish if they are even intended to be.
 
So how could the Bride be the saints in this clear verse?:
In this verse it is quite clear the Bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem, not the saints at all.

4. Jerusalem above is the mother of the children of promise; but if the church is the Lamb's wife, who are the children?

HI Rusty - Jerusalem and New Jerusalem (NJ) are synonymous with the Church or Body of Christ, esp. the NJ because it and the saints will be inseparable and appear together--forever (Rev 21:2)--at this descent all of those who will ever be saved will be inside with God--forever.

It's understandable why one would conclude that the NJ would be the Bride, considering the obscurity of analogies used, but the sense wouldn't be reasonable to attribute reference to the NJ as the Bride, for it was prepared for the saints, not the saints for it; it adorns the saints, not the saints adorn it, and there seems no reason to conceive that Christ will marry the city (NJ), but rather the City (Body and Church) will marry Christ.

"And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb" (Rev 19:8, 9).

I believe the imperfect Church state or condition (Jerusalem) is analogous to the Church prior to the perfect state of the saints. The perfect church state (NJ) is analogous to the saints in a perfect state (resurrected).

"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:2).

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" (Hbr 12:22, 23).

I have much more Scriptural references if you would like them but I suggest viewing Bible commentators (esp. John Gill) for now concerning any Scriptures you want to pursue.

Example:
“But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all” (Gal 4:26): http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/galatians/gill/galatians4.htm

God's blessings to your Family!
 
Hmmmm...well that holds IF:
1. IF by "corporeal" you mean mortal. But this mortal "must put on immortality" at the Resurrection of the just.
2. IF every literal thing ascribed to angels is a sham: eating with Abraham, opening locked doors, etc.

Clearly the Risen Christ is physical: Thomas did touch His wounds, He did grill fish for Peter. If His being forever our High Priest, as He is we must become like...so...the immortal life is tangible, just with abilities the fallen life does not have in the fallen earth.

I'm VERY confused about this idea that spiritual life off of earth is "IN God's mind"....This is mystical beyond anything, for me.

Yes corporeal is the body whereas non-corporeal is in the spirit.
I was not talking about angels, but about Holy THINGS on earth. The Temple, The Ark, etc...
Definitely angels are spirit like God.
Heb 8:5 talks about the tabernacle made by Moses provided for worship modeled after the spiritual realm in which Christ ministers. That tabernacle and its worship pointed forward to God’s plan of salvation that would be revealed in Christ.
 
"Clearly the Risen Christ is physical"

Yes, the "New Heaven" and "New Earth" will be an incorruptible physicality (Rev 22:2), same as the bodies of the resurrected saints which will be the same as the Lord's "glorious (glorified) body" (Phil 3:21).

"Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have" (Luke 24:39). The Lord's resurrected body and His spirit being (John 4:24) will be joined forever as a loving example to the saints.
 
"They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence"
. (Luke 24:37-43)

It is important to read the Scriptures and see clearly what they teach. Jesus rose BODILY from the tomb. He did not raise as a spirit being---but as a resurrected person. His body had changed, but it still bore the marks of crucifixion, and it was made of flesh and bones (though not blood). He ASCENDED to Heaven in this very body. This body that he bore was able to consume food. This is shown clearly above. The Jesus who now sits at the right hand of God is in a physically resurrected BODY.

I believe Luke 24 clearly shows us this to combat any heresy that would arise claiming Jesus raised as a spirit being (as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach) rather than in bodily form. Heaven is not "in the mind of God"---it is a place. To deny that it is a literal place is to deny the resurrection and ascension of Jesus in BODILY FORM---and his return IN LIKE MANNER. This is one of the concrete tenets of the Christian faith. We must not deny this clear Biblical teaching, or we are denying the very Christian faith.
 
"They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence"
. (Luke 24:37-43)
Good aplicable passages Fish!
 
Mine quoting him, NC? Helps the flow, ya know.

"When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence". (Luke 24:37-43)

A spirit doesn't require food, nor can it utilize it. It is shown in Revelation 22:2, 14 that our new bodies will consume food, as the Lord did here.
 
I find it weird that one can recognize Jesus' immortal physical body, but not believe we shall be LIKE Him and LIVE with Him Eternally on the NEW earth.
 
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