Positional Presence

T It would also appear that those that were saved by their belief and acceptance of the promise of a savior BEFORE Christ came, will be raised in the second resurrection as their names are in the Book of Life.

The sense of the last resurrection is that nobody in it will be saved or "blessed" (20:6), only those in the first one are"blessed" (saved). The book of Life being opened here (20:12) serves only as a witness to their names being absent in it, and thus judged "according to their works"--which are only evil; no Spirit to restrain dominion of the "old man" (Gal 5:17) and no Cross-Blood applied to atone for the guilt of the old man.

The mention of the martyrs in 20:4 attests to the fact that they receive their new bodies, along with the rest of the saints, and all will reign with Christ through the Millennium and through eternity of the new creations (New Earth, Heaven and Jerusalem).
 
Not what I see NC.
Rev 20:15 states; Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Conversely anyone whose name IS found in the BOL stays alive in the New earth. That would be those who were NOT resurrected at Christ's return. ONLY the Dead in Christ were resurrected then.
 
The confusion lies in the fact that the Bible teaches there are two Judgments. The dead in Christ are raised at his return to the earth. At this time "The Judgment Seat of Christ" will happen. (Peter says 'judgment begins with the house of God').

Only believers will be there---and it will not be a punitive judgment, but a judgment of "works" the believer has done after they have been "born again". The second judgment is at the end of all things, and it is called "The Great White Throne Judgment". Only unbelievers will be at this judgment. The "books will be opened" to show them why they are being thrown into the Lake of Fire. They will have their chance to protest (See Matthew 7:22), and defend themselves, but in the end the Law itself, and their own works and lack of reception of the gift of the Gospel will show them quite clearly why they are lost.

Great confusion arises when anyone tries to combine these two judgments---they are mot meant to be combined--and are two separate events before two different thrones. One Judgment will hand out rewards, and possibly cause shame to some--but the other judgment is definitely punitive, and ends with the Lake of Fire. What an awesome and most horrible thought! Praise God we can stand before the Judgment seat of Christ, as we have been eternally saved and forgiven. We will be judged solely for the works we do as Christians, but nothing punitive awaits us. Christ has already born our punishment on the Cross.
 
So, Stan: I think I'm seeing you are saying there are 2 resurrections: the dead in Christ and later (when?) the unsaved....I'm I on the right track?

Well I'm actually seeing three if you take the rapture as one and these two in Revelation 20:5, is the first after the tribulation, and then 20:13 shows the second resurrection, then Jesus' throne judgment and finally the second death.
 
1. ONLY those who die during the tribulation will reign with Jesus for that millennium, Rev 20:4. This is God's Word, NOT my assumption. After the 1000 year reign, the battle of GOG and MAGOG will happen,. it is called Armageddon, Rev 20:7-10. Then Jesus' White Throne judgment will happen and ALL unbelievers will be condemned to the lake of fire forever. This is the SECOND death, Rev 20:11-15. ONLY Jesus reigns on earth during that time. God the Father and Holy Spirit stay in heaven.

2. Because the Bible does KJ. Why not just accept what it says instead of trying to use your so-called superior lateral thought to make it fit your doctrinal view? Again Jesus reigns, NOT God. Mount Zion was NOT heaven, nor was the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle. God was there but they were NOT heaven. Rev 21:22-27 shows what the New Jerusalem will be like. It will be God's home, FOREVER. This is also shown in Rev 22:1-5 where it shows the NJ will have the River of the Water of Life, and the Tree of Life, Eden restored. ALL physical. Funny how you don't see Eternity as LIFE on earth but you think a physical throne and gates are in a non-corporeal heaven?

I'm sorry but the rest of your post is way too convoluted to actually try to respond to. Your post contains all kinds of human thoughts and reasoning's NOT evidenced in the scriptures., and I have supplied plenty of scriptures for you to gleen the truth from.

Heaven is defined as:

1. The sky or universe as seen from the earth; the firmament. Often used in the plural.

So when we continue space exlporation with our renewed minds we will not be allowed to settle on other planets? God will forbid it? What about a holiday house on Pluto? What if I want to stay there because I am a bit sick of my neighbours on Earth? God is not currently stopping space exploration ;).

2. In Christianity
a. often Heaven The abode of God, the angels, and the souls of those who are granted salvation.


If we take only 'of' God, then when Jesus reigns on the Earth that is heaven as Jesus = God.

b. An eternal state of communion with God; everlasting bliss.

According to this, all Christians have already tasted heaven.

3. Any of the places in or beyond the sky conceived of as domains of divine beings in various religions.

Note 'any', once more re-enforcing that where God is = heaven.

4. A condition or place of great happiness, delight, or pleasure: The lake was heaven

Sounds like the New Earth would qualify as heaven.

Conclusion: This subject is not worth arguing over. But you do need to see that you easily cause offence and defy logic when you say we will be stuck on earth and not be in ''heaven''. Perhaps phrase your view better by saying everyone will be in heaven but not necessarily in the throne room. The scriptures you quoted you are taking literally. I don't really want a scriptural debate on this as I am sure we both agree the hereafter will be awesome and we will both have our eyes further opened. Paul says it best 1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
 
Ummm....The "rapture" is dealing with living people; I've only heard the term "resurrection" having to do with "the dead".

"Resurrection" does in fact deal with the dead, BUT the Rapture deals with both according to God Word...........

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 
Heaven is defined as:

1. The sky or universe as seen from the earth; the firmament. Often used in the plural.

So when we continue space exlporation with our renewed minds we will not be allowed to settle on other planets? God will forbid it? What about a holiday house on Pluto? What if I want to stay there because I am a bit sick of my neighbours on Earth? God is not currently stopping space exploration ;).

2. In Christianity
a. often Heaven The abode of God, the angels, and the souls of those who are granted salvation.


If we take only 'of' God, then when Jesus reigns on the Earth that is heaven as Jesus = God.

b. An eternal state of communion with God; everlasting bliss.

According to this, all Christians have already tasted heaven.

3. Any of the places in or beyond the sky conceived of as domains of divine beings in various religions.

Note 'any', once more re-enforcing that where God is = heaven.

4. A condition or place of great happiness, delight, or pleasure: The lake was heaven

Sounds like the New Earth would qualify as heaven.

Conclusion: This subject is not worth arguing over. But you do need to see that you easily cause offence and defy logic when you say we will be stuck on earth and not be in ''heaven''. Perhaps phrase your view better by saying everyone will be in heaven but not necessarily in the throne room. The scriptures you quoted you are taking literally. I don't really want a scriptural debate on this as I am sure we both agree the hereafter will be awesome and we will both have our eyes further opened. Paul says it best 1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Hi KJ - Trusting all has been well with your Family! I just wanted to share something related to your comment. It concerns the phrase "the third heaven" (2 Cor 12:2) which "is in respect to the airy and starry heavens" -JG. These are said to be the first heaven (atmosphere to space), second heaven (space), and third heaven (I believe is the fourth-dimensional dwelling of God).

Just thought this would be interesting to share. God's blessings to you Family!
 
Ummm....The "rapture" is dealing with living people; I've only heard the term "resurrection" having to do with "the dead".

The dead in Christ will rise first, THEN those that are alive in Christ will be caught up TOGETHER.
1 Thess 4:17-18
 
Heaven is defined as:

1. The sky or universe as seen from the earth; the firmament. Often used in the plural.

So when we continue space exlporation with our renewed minds we will not be allowed to settle on other planets? God will forbid it? What about a holiday house on Pluto? What if I want to stay there because I am a bit sick of my neighbours on Earth? God is not currently stopping space exploration ;).

2. In Christianity
a. often Heaven The abode of God, the angels, and the souls of those who are granted salvation.


If we take only 'of' God, then when Jesus reigns on the Earth that is heaven as Jesus = God.

b. An eternal state of communion with God; everlasting bliss.

According to this, all Christians have already tasted heaven.

3. Any of the places in or beyond the sky conceived of as domains of divine beings in various religions.

Note 'any', once more re-enforcing that where God is = heaven.

4. A condition or place of great happiness, delight, or pleasure: The lake was heaven

Sounds like the New Earth would qualify as heaven.

Conclusion: This subject is not worth arguing over. But you do need to see that you easily cause offence and defy logic when you say we will be stuck on earth and not be in ''heaven''. Perhaps phrase your view better by saying everyone will be in heaven but not necessarily in the throne room. The scriptures you quoted you are taking literally. I don't really want a scriptural debate on this as I am sure we both agree the hereafter will be awesome and we will both have our eyes further opened. Paul says it best 1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1. There's 'heavens' and 'Heaven'. The first is the universe and second is where God resides. It's not our minds or spirits that are renewed when Jesus returns, it is our bodies. They are changed from mortal to immortal. You assume space is for exploration, but the Bible does not tell us this. That would be the Trekkie in you. ;) What Rev 21:1 does tell us is that there will be a NEW heaven AND a new earth. It doesn't tell us what that will be EXCEPT that the New Earth will be without seas. The only water we will need is found in Rev 22:1.

2. You'll have to show IN SCRIPTURE, where souls go to heaven when they die to be with God KJ. Jesus said different in John 3:13; "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man." This holds true today until His return. Paradise is another matter and Jesus alluded to this place in Luke 23:43 and although not by name, also in Luke 16:22. Hebrews 9:27-28 also says; Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

3. Let's not get equivocal here KJ, we are talking about a place, NOT a feeling. Fred Astaire wasn't actually there, when he sang about it in Cheek to Cheek. There are NO other divine beings KJ. God is the ONE and ONLY. All principalities and powers of darkness are subject to Jesus and we deal with them spiritually, NOT physically. We won't be flying to Mars to defeat the God of War!

4. Yes it does sound like it doesn't it? The FACT is however, that God creates a NEW HEAVEN and earth. You're being equivocal now instead of just admitting to the facts.

ANY truth is worth it KJ. We're almost 100 posts in to this thread and NOW you don't want to support your view? IMO the worth is based on the truth therein which you seem to have given up on, but so be it. I don't say anything KJ, the Bible does. Apparently you don't think living with God for eternity will be enough for you? You THINK you will need diversions, but you don't even KNOW what the NEW Heavens will be like. Logic has NOTHING to do with God's Word except when people won't accept what it says. We accept His Word by FAITH, not logic.
1 Cor 2:9 is great, but again IN context it is not talking about the future or heaven KJ, it is talking about what reveals to us by His Holy Spirit once we accept Jesus as our saviour. You need to finish Paul's thought by reading the next verse; "-these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit."
I do agree with you, as Paul says in 1 Cor 13:12.
That doesn't mean we can't see what is to come by properly dividing the Word of Truth.
 
Please explain why this verse cannot mean the dead and living redeemed are caught up at the same time, the living with the newly resurrected.
In the context of the chapter I see it as a joining up of all Christians, past and present before being caught up.
The underlined word is pivotal:
So I see this as one movement. I still would not call a being "caught up" of the living a "resurrection" as they are not dead.

IF by "living redeemed" you mean those of Abraham's ilk who believed in the promise, they were not IN Christ, as Paul depicts in v 14. The word is 'precede', not sure what version you quote here, but 'prevent' is not the meaning.
In any event that is what I see in what Paul teaches.
 
Let's look at the verses anew: (my emphasis)
ALL the redeemed, of whatever time, will be taken away by Christ (by resurrection or live "catching up)to God the Father.
As I have said elsewhere....This whole underground purgatory jazz about Abraham's bosom is based on ONE parable and taught NOWHERE as doctrine in the Bible.
"Sleep" is death; a clear metaphor used to underpin the absolute certainty that all mankind will be resurrected one day, for eternal life or eternal death.
Let's look at the verseses anew: (my emphasis)

I'm NOT referring to Paradise as Purgatory, but there is such a place because Jesus Himself spoke of it. Once by name and once not by name. Let's not use RCC vernacular, because clearly this is a place for forgiven and saved people.

I'm fine with sleep, because it relates to the body, NOT the soul. So sleeping in death would be apt, considering Paul is talking about a physical resurrection. The soul doesn't sleep.
 
Ok so you agree. Then the gathering of the living redeemed and the raising of the sleeping ones is ONE event, just two types of participants . The living are NOT "resurrected", but changed and caught up, never tasting death at all.

Therefore your idea of "3 Resurrections" cannot be supported, IMO.

Or can you prove from Scripture that the saved Jewish dead is very different than the saved Gentile dead? Is that what you are saying?

That IS what I see. The rapture is the first resurrection. Those who died in the tribulation as martyr's or who did NOT take the mark of the beast is the second, and the third is the resurrection prior to the great white throne judgment.
Of course this is not including Jesus' own, Lazarus and those in Matthew 27:52-53
 
Sorry, Stan, but I cannot go along with this. I see all living Christians at that time having to go through a tribulation.
I see no "Bug Out" for living saints.
I see no pilotless planes crashing into the ground, no Hal Lindsey/LaHaye Hollywood God, killing non-Christians by taking out Christians from behind wheels and pilots seats.

The God I love is not like that.

Sorry I was just trying to explain, not make a new thread. I'll deal with this issue in Brimley's thread.
 
Hi KJ - Trusting all has been well with your Family! I just wanted to share something related to your comment. It concerns the phrase "the third heaven" (2 Cor 12:2) which "is in respect to the airy and starry heavens" -JG. These are said to be the first heaven (atmosphere to space), second heaven (space), and third heaven (I believe is the fourth-dimensional dwelling of God).

Just thought this would be interesting to share. God's blessings to you Family!
Hi, thanks we all fine :).

I agree with that. I like how they are all 'heaven'.
 
Hi, thanks we all fine :).

I agree with that. I like how they are all 'heaven'.
Also wanted to mention that I'm not certain the "New Earth" will be considered part of the "New Heaven," as I believe the New Jerusalem will be, because They (Father and Son) and Their thrones will be there also (Rev 21:22, 23; 22:1, 3). There's no mention of anyone going from these Places (new heaven and earth) to the New Earth after the Millennium.

There is a mention of possibly its inhabitants going from there (new Earth) to those Places (21:24, 26), of which I am still researching; and I like John Gill's commentary the best so far but still ironing many wrinkles in my conception of this:
http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/revelation/gill/revelation21.htm

I strongly suspect that Israelites will be saved during the Millennium and these will inherit the New Earth, and I've been researching this one for a couple years now.
 
The confusion lies in the fact that the Bible teaches there are two Judgments. The dead in Christ are raised at his return to the earth. At this time "The Judgment Seat of Christ" will happen. (Peter says 'judgment begins with the house of God').

Only believers will be there---and it will not be a punitive judgment, but a judgment of "works" the believer has done after they have been "born again". The second judgment is at the end of all things, and it is called "The Great White Throne Judgment". Only unbelievers will be at this judgment. The "books will be opened" to show them why they are being thrown into the Lake of Fire. They will have their chance to protest (See Matthew 7:22), and defend themselves, but in the end the Law itself, and their own works and lack of reception of the gift of the Gospel will show them quite clearly why they are lost.

Great confusion arises when anyone tries to combine these two judgments---they are mot meant to be combined--and are two separate events before two different thrones. One Judgment will hand out rewards, and possibly cause shame to some--but the other judgment is definitely punitive, and ends with the Lake of Fire. What an awesome and most horrible thought! Praise God we can stand before the Judgment seat of Christ, as we have been eternally saved and forgiven. We will be judged solely for the works we do as Christians, but nothing punitive awaits us. Christ has already born our punishment on the Cross.

Excellent! I agree with you "fish" not because YOU are saying it but because that is what the Scriptures teach us.
 
Stan says in comment #22...............
"2. You'll have to show IN SCRIPTURE, where souls go to heaven when they die to be with God KJ."


Dr. Billy Graham saysin his book: "A Perspective on Suffering".........
"You should not worry; the Bible clearly teaches that if we know Christ, we are safely in God's hands forever when we die, and that nothing "in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:39).
Does this mean we immediately enter heaven when we die? My own study of the Bible has convinced me that we do. This is reflected in many passages in the Bible. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies" (John 11:25). The Apostle Paul wrote, "I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far" (Philippians 1:23). The Bible also says, "Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands" (2 Corinthians 5:1).
We need to remember, however, one additional truth: At the end of this present age, God will reunite our souls and our bodies. In fact, we will be given new bodies—bodies that will be similar to Christ's body after His resurrection. They will never experience illness or pain, and they will never grow old.
Take comfort in the fact that your wife is now safely beyond all the pain and dangers of this life, and she now dwells in God's presence forever. And this is your destiny too, and the destiny of every person who truly trusts Christ for their salvation."

I think I will go with Dr. Graham myself!
 
That IS what I see. The rapture is the first resurrection. Those who died in the tribulation as martyr's or who did NOT take the mark of the beast is the second, and the third is the resurrection prior to the great white throne judgment.
Of course this is not including Jesus' own, Lazarus and those in Matthew 27:52-53

Biblically speaking there are TWO resurrections.

Sometimes there is some confusion because the first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself the “first fruits,” 1 Corth. 15:20 paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him.

There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints in Matt. 27:52-53 which is to be in the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return at the Rapture, as seen in 1 Thess. 4:16, and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation in Rev. 20:4.

Then in Rev. 20:10-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the
Great White Throne Judgment, prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” in John 5:29.

So then Biblically we see TWO resurrections seperated by 1000 years which is the Millennial Rule of Christ.

The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Rev. 20:4, but the “rest of the dead which is the wicked, lived not again until the thousand years were finished” as seen in Rev. 20:5).
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-first-second.html#ixzz2dNHvobEN
 
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