Positional Presence

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by netchaplain, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. #1 netchaplain, Aug 19, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
    I would like to thank the Admin/Mod team for such a nice site to be a part of--which due to their continuous improvising provides an ever-enhancing fellowship experience. God's blessings to your Families!

    The positional-truth (un-hinderingly heaven bound) of the believer has prominence over his conditional-truth, that though our condition still possess the sin nature (“old man”), we are not in it (Rom 8:9), e. g. our desires are within our new nature (“new man”) and are what we live for, because the Spirit ensures it (Gal 5:17).

    The significance isn’t the ongoing presence of the “old man,” because all it will ever do is already accounted for and has been satisfied; so the believer can say with the Apostle Paul, “Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience” (1 Tim 3:9).

    This is not making allowances for sinful thoughts and actions, which are to be confessed, but so the believer can rest knowing that from such he is never considered to be in trouble with God and that the conception shall always be that of a Divine guidance out of a loving-chastisement—Him using it all to teach us for our good (Rom 8:28) and never out of punishment, but correction—a vastly significant difference.

    Positional Presence

    There is a great deal of Judaizing in the church today. I do not mean to charge the present generation only with it. The Ten Commandments have a place assigned to them as the sine qua non, the recognition of which was necessary for true religion while man was under law. To insist on their having that place now tends to bring men into fearful bondage, and hinder them getting into the full liberty of the child of God. “The law . . . can never . . . make the comers thereunto perfect,” in contrast with, “By one offering Christ has perfected forever them that are sanctified” i.e., those set apart by His Blood (Heb 10:1, 14).

    Now we have the Father’s ultimate and eternal sacrifice. “Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that He may establish the second; by which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Heb 10:9, 10). Hereby we are set apart once for all. It is a revelation of a new character of God, our Father. If He brings me into that place where He is, what do I find there? Not that it is full of sins, but that the great leading Person, who marks the place to me, made an end of sin before He went in there.

    Quite different from the tabernacle or the temple, where there was nothing but sin, sin, sin; nothing but curtain and distance from God; and now I am told to go right in. What meets me? There is the veil rent, the flesh of God’s Son, going through that, the death of Christ. I go in—yes, to see what is on the other side. I go in as confessedly one who has not one word to say for myself, because He has borne the penalty; and the way up, leads into the purest light possible, where the object that meets my mind is the Son of Man (eternally with His new human body –Luke 24:39; John 20:27; Phil 3:21—NC), who sat down at the Father’s right hand.

    There is no guilt whatever in this place I have been brought to, a place where sins, where guilt, cannot live. All has been judged, all borne, recorded if you please. Because of mercy from this place, compassion shines there, and my Father is present there as meeting conscience. Ah! The new-creation saint is received in, and seen through the Father’s delight in that blessed One before Him.

    Now the difference between law and grace come out. At Pentecost men were terrified to hear of the Lord Jesus being up in heaven. Now when you hear of the Blood, if you draw nigh, you will find all has become yours. If I have Him whose Blood was shed for me, I know that He has made me perfect before God as far as conscience is concerned. Before a saint can start to walk as a Christian safely, he must know that his conscience is perfect (Heb 9:9), and that the question of sin is settled completely. It is a test for a good many, this truth.

    If I have been trying to salve over things in myself, I get a measure of contentment, a certain amount of quietness. But when I am getting nearer to God, I find that I am not settled. The effect on conscience when it is really perfect is greater the nearer you get to the Father; the neater the light, the more comfort you have. I may have all sorts of feelings; but when I stand in the light, I have the conviction of the work and value of Him who is on the throne making it the mercy-seat. If you can go by faith, then you have a perfect conscience; and the nearer you get the more the soul is filled with holy boldness (Heb 10:19) in the presence of the Father.

    I cannot have my eyes fixed upon the Lord Jesus where He is, as the accepted sacrifice, without having a perfect conscience; a conscience perfect, because formed on the very thing that His holiness finds rest in. My Father has told me about Himself in the truth that His Son has borne all. If I am not satisfied, that is only saying that I am more holy than God.

    -G V Wigram
    Intojoy, Major, farouk and 1 other person say Amen and like this.
  2. Amen. Great post!

    "Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need." (Heb. 4:16)
  3. Hi Fish - Thanks for your reply and compliment. I find your's quite applicable. We can be at ease when we remember that we never enter on our own but on behalf of Christ's "propitiation" (Rom 3:25; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10), who is now ever before the Father for our cause; which propitiation is effective only towards the believers who come out of the world.
  4. Amen!

    " Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them". (Hebrews 7:25)

  5. Excellent thoughts from G V Wigram on why the believer is no longer under the law but under grace in Christ.

    Legal matters have now been settled. The lawyer visited but has now gone back to his office, and we are now having a peaceful family time.
  6. As always, a wonderful teaching moment.

    I understand it to be that it was impossible for the Law to produce righteousness in man. That is not the Laws fault, but is in fact mans fault and the sin is in his flesh. It seems to me that the Law is incappable of producing any good thing.

    So then, to extend this conversation, allow me to ask , what is the reason for that situation????
  7. So that no flesh might glory, but all the glory be given to God!
  8. I like the concept, it presents the fact that the believer is not even on trial, because all has been settled.

    Unregenerate man is under the law of sin, which law states "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Gen 2:17; Eze 18:4, 20). Only Israel was under the Law of Moses and unbelieving Israel is still under the law of sin, along with the unsaved world. Thus the Christian was never under the Law of Moses, but was under the law of sin.
    farouk likes this.

  9. I whole heartily agree about CFS NC.

    So you're saying that positionally/effectually we are heaven bound?

    I don't see the heaven part in scripture, but I do see the positional/effectual condition being in evidence. When the Bible say we are dead in our sins, it means effectually/positionally dead, NOT actually dead.

    Where is it you see this heaven bound status?
  10. Hi Stan - That's what position is all about, we are already positioned or have a place in the new Heaven as sure as if we were there now--with Christ (Eph 2:6), and we will not be any more saved then than we are now, just a lot less baggage. The entirety of Christianity is based on being a heavenly-bound individual, thus if it didn't entail a certainty of being eternally in Heaven, it would be void of all meaning.

    One who becomes a General and is imprisoned in war time doesn't loose his position, but remains a General and still has a place in the upper chambers--awaiting.
    Major likes this.
  11. OK I see that we are seated IN Christ Jesus in heaven just as we are made alive in Him, but we aren't going there. Rev 21 shows will are going to a NEW earth, and will LIVE eternally with God. Paul says in 1 Cor 15:53 that our mortal bodies we will be changed into immortal bodies. We inherit an eternal life, NOT an eternal heaven.
    We are saved from and eternal death and separation from God, into an eternal life and fellowship with God.
    Rev 21:3
    And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and He will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
  12. #12 netchaplain, Aug 23, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
    Mat 5:3; Mat 5:10; Mat 5:19; Mat 5:20; Mat 7:21; 2 Cor 5:1; Col 1:5; Heb 10:34; 1 Pe 1:4; Rev 5:3; Rev 19:1; Rev 19:14.
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  15. Not an eternal Heaven?

    "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne" (Rev. 3:21)

    Sure sounds like we'll be in Heaven to me. :)
  16. This is getting close to another thread here on CFS that I started. "Kingdom of Heaven", is ONLY used in Matthew. The other verses you have supplied don't use kingdom of heaven, and in my view are NOT interchangeable. Some of those verses refer to things KEPT in heaven for us, but that doesn't mean that is where we are going. What do you think Heb 9:15 is referring to?
    We are given Eternal LIFE; John 3:36, John 4:14, John 5:24, John 10:28, John 12:25...to name just those in John.

    I appreciate the verses NC but a little bit of explanation or quantification would be appreciated.
    I don't see Heaven (where God resides) as our eternal destination. I see the New Earth as our place to LIVE Eternally.
  17. Then you should read Rev 2o and 21 to see where Jesus' throne will be. It ISN'T in heaven. The dead are NOT judged in heaven. He only has ONE throne.
  18. Amen my brother.......good stuff!
  19. It seems that there is some confusion over the New Heaven & Earth with the New City of Jerusalem which is the Bride of Christ.
    It is the Pearly White City of New Jerusalem which will come down out of Heaven and be located over the earthly location of Jerusalem in Israel. IT will be the home of the church.

    Rev. 21:1-2
    "And I John saw the holy city New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold the tabernacle of God is with men and He will dwell with them and they shall be his people and God himself shall be with them and be their God".

    Rev. 21:10
    "And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God".

    The approx. size of this New City of Jerusalem, when reading verses 16 - 20 is about the size of our moon.

    2 Peter 2:12-13
    "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, Never the less we, according to his promise look for anew heaven and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness."
  20. Stan ---you need to read the verse more closely:

    To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne" (Rev 3:21)

    The throne in Heaven is called "The throne of God and of the Lamb". Jesus is stating that those who overcome will sit with Him in His throne. And where is His throne?---within the Father's throne. The Father dwells in Heaven, and Jesus is seated with Him there. Those who overcome will be seated with Jesus in His throne, which is with the Father in His throne.

    Again, several places in Revelation the Throne is called "the throne of God and of the Lamb"---yes---Jesys will have a throne for one thousand years upon the earth during the Millenium--but the final resting place for Christians is the "HEAVENLY Jerusalem".

    "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
    Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth
    ". (Co. 3:1,2)

    We set our sites on things above---because that is where we are headed.

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