Positional Presence

I find it weird that one can recognize Jesus' immortal physical body, but not believe we shall be LIKE Him and LIVE with Him Eternally on the NEW earth.

Your theology is just a bit skewed that's all. You are combining Christianity with heresy (the kind the Jehovah's Witnesses are fond of). Jesus said he desired "we be with Him where He is". And He is with the Father. The New Jerusalem is the Heavenly Jerusalem (Heb. 12). It descends from Heaven, and is still part of Heaven. The Christian's hope is to be with Christ in Heaven.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are taught mankind will live upon a new earth--at least MOST of them will (the "jonadabs" will)--the other 144,000 spirit begotten ones will dwell in heaven, and "follow the lamb wherever he goes". What a most saddening theology. Most JW's have no hope of Heaven at all----they believe if God is merciful He won't destroy them, and they will be part of the NEW earth.

The throne of God is in Heaven---and the saved stand before Him, and also sit with Him. The 2/3 of the angels who did not fall are in Heaven. Mankind has been redeemed to replace the 1/3 of angels who fell--and in fact, to actually be brought to a higher position (See Hebrews 1:14). Our home is Heavenly, not earthly. If you have an earthly hope Stan, I'm not sure what Bible you're reading, or what religious group you're following--but one thing is for sure---it isn't the Christianity of the Bible.
 
Exactly! This is putting 2 and 2 together, IMO.

Apparently some people CAN'T add.
2 + 2 either equals 4 or 5 depending on what they feel like believing at the time.
Jesus comes back to earth, establishes His 1000 year reign, judges ALL of mankind, throws all sinners in the fiery lake and then creates a NEW Earth, but we're all bound for heaven. It is definitely some very bad arithmetic!
 
Apparently some people CAN'T add.
2 + 2 either equals 4 or 5 depending on what they feel like believing at the time.
Jesus comes back to earth, establishes His 1000 year reign, judges ALL of mankind, throws all sinners in the fiery lake and then creates a NEW Earth, but we're all bound for heaven. It is definitely some very bad arithmetic!
You are adding well but not using lateral thought.

1. Reigning with Jesus means 1000 years on earth and anywhere in heaven / universe thereafter. When scripture says we will reign with Jesus...you assume that is simply the earth...for all eternity? God gave His life (the greatest gift He could give) for us but He will keep us tied to...earth....for all eternity? God calls us His sons, we have a joint inheritance with Jesus...but we will be stuck on earth for eternity?

2. Earth and the universe = heaven. Why differentiate between the new earth and heaven? If Jesus is reigning over the earth for 1000 years, that would make earth a definite heaven as where God is, is heaven. If God goes to sit on His throne, we won't be able to pay Him a visit? because it is not on earth? We can't fly like Jesus's resurrected body? He closes the gates to heaven from us? We are not worthy to enter heaven?

After the judgement days the universe is heaven and hell. If you want to get technical and mention hell, heaven / throne, earth...then add Jupiter, Saturn and all the rest.
 
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Your theology is just a bit skewed that's all. You are combining Christianity with heresy (the kind the Jehovah's Witnesses are fond of). Jesus said he desired "we be with Him where He is". And He is with the Father. The New Jerusalem is the Heavenly Jerusalem (Heb. 12). It descends from Heaven, and is still part of Heaven. The Christian's hope is to be with Christ in Heaven.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are taught mankind will live upon a new earth--at least MOST of them will (the "jonadabs" will)--the other 144,000 spirit begotten ones will dwell in heaven, and "follow the lamb wherever he goes". What a most saddening theology. Most JW's have no hope of Heaven at all----they believe if God is merciful He won't destroy them, and they will be part of the NEW earth.

The throne of God is in Heaven---and the saved stand before Him, and also sit with Him. The 2/3 of the angels who did not fall are in Heaven. Mankind has been redeemed to replace the 1/3 of angels who fell--and in fact, to actually be brought to a higher position (See Hebrews 1:14). Our home is Heavenly, not earthly. If you have an earthly hope Stan, I'm not sure what Bible you're reading, or what religious group you're following--but one thing is for sure---it isn't the Christianity of the Bible.
Saying his theology is "a bit skewed" is like saying the Atlantic ocean is a "bit wet."
 
Heaven is the temporal abode where all believers are, will be until the second coming when all believers will enter the Messianic Kingdom for 1000 years after which the New Jerusalem on this planet will be man's eternal abode. Those who die as believers go to be with The Lord in heaven immediately until the second coming.
 
You are adding well but not using lateral thought.
1. Reigning with Jesus means 1000 years on earth and anywhere in heaven / universe thereafter. When scripture says we will reign with Jesus...you assume that is simply the earth...for all eternity? God gave His life (the greatest gift He could give) for us but He will keep us tied to...earth....for all eternity? God calls us His sons, we have a joint inheritance with Jesus...but we will be stuck on earth for eternity?

2. Earth and the universe = heaven. Why differentiate between the new earth and heaven? If Jesus is reigning over the earth for 1000 years, that would make earth a definite heaven as where God is, is heaven. If God goes to sit on His throne, we won't be able to pay Him a visit? because it is not on earth? We can't fly like Jesus's resurrected body? He closes the gates to heaven from us? We are not worthy to enter heaven?

After the judgement days the universe is heaven and hell. If you want to get technical and mention hell, heaven / throne, earth...then add Jupiter, Saturn and all the rest.

1. ONLY those who die during the tribulation will reign with Jesus for that millennium, Rev 20:4. This is God's Word, NOT my assumption. After the 1000 year reign, the battle of GOG and MAGOG will happen,. it is called Armageddon, Rev 20:7-10.
Then Jesus' White Throne judgment will happen and ALL unbelievers will be condemned to the lake of fire forever. This is the SECOND death, Rev 20:11-15. ONLY Jesus reigns on earth during that time. God the Father and Holy Spirit stay in heaven.

2. Because the Bible does KJ. Why not just accept what it says instead of trying to use your so-called superior lateral thought to make it fit your doctrinal view? Again Jesus reigns, NOT God. Mount Zion was NOT heaven, nor was the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle. God was there but they were NOT heaven. Rev 21:22-27 shows what the New Jerusalem will be like. It will be God's home, FOREVER. This is also shown in Rev 22:1-5 where it shows the NJ will have the River of the Water of Life, and the Tree of Life, Eden restored. ALL physical. Funny how you don't see Eternity as LIFE on earth but you think a physical throne and gates are in a non-corporeal heaven?

I'm sorry but the rest of your post is way too convoluted to actually try to respond to. Your post contains all kinds of human thoughts and reasoning's NOT evidenced in the scriptures., and I have supplied plenty of scriptures for you to gleen the truth from.
 
Heaven is the temporal abode where all believers are, will be until the second coming when all believers will enter the Messianic Kingdom for 1000 years after which the New Jerusalem on this planet will be man's eternal abode. Those who die as believers go to be with The Lord in heaven immediately until the second coming.

Yeh I'm not sure that is accurate Into. Well actually I AM sure it is NOT.
Heb 9:27 says; "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment."
We may go to a place called Paradise, but I see nothing in scripture that says we go TO Heaven, where God is.
 
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You are adding well but not using lateral thought.

1. Reigning with Jesus means 1000 years on earth and anywhere in heaven / universe thereafter. When scripture says we will reign with Jesus...you assume that is simply the earth...for all eternity? God gave His life (the greatest gift He could give) for us but He will keep us tied to...earth....for all eternity? God calls us His sons, we have a joint inheritance with Jesus...but we will be stuck on earth for eternity?

2. Earth and the universe = heaven. Why differentiate between the new earth and heaven? If Jesus is reigning over the earth for 1000 years, that would make earth a definite heaven as where God is, is heaven. If God goes to sit on His throne, we won't be able to pay Him a visit? because it is not on earth? We can't fly like Jesus's resurrected body? He closes the gates to heaven from us? We are not worthy to enter heaven?

After the judgement days the universe is heaven and hell. If you want to get technical and mention hell, heaven / throne, earth...then add Jupiter, Saturn and all the rest.

Agreed and what has been forgotten by our associate is that "ALL" sin will not have been judged at the 1000 year rule of Christ.

That will not happen until the end of the 1000 year rule after the battle of Gog and Magog. Those humans who are born during the 1000 year rule have never been tempted. That is why Satan is loosened at the end of the 1000 years. Those humans will when temped by Satan, give in to that temptation and rebell against God and then all sin will be dwelt with.
 
Yeh I'm not sure that is accurate Into. Well actually I AM sure it is NOT.
Heb 9:27 says; "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment."
We may go to a place called Paradise, but I see nothing in scripture that says we go TO Heaven, where God is.

Paradise was emptied by Christ at His resurrection and He took those saints with Him to heaven and the Paradise side of Hades is empty.

Ephesians 4:8-10
"Wherefore he saith, when he ascended up on high he led CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE and gave gifts to men. Now that he ascended what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth. He that descended also ascended up far above all heavens that he might fill all things".
 
"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus". (Ephesians 2:6,7)

Hmmm... These verses state God has already seated believers (in His view) in the "Heavenly realms"--and that as we are seated, in the "ages to come he will continue to show the incomparable riches of his grace to us". I rejoice in the hope of Heaven. If you want to stay on earth that's fine Stan---I personally desire to be with Lord for all of eternity. Thank God the Bible tells me I will dwell with him forever in Heaven.
 
1. ONLY those who die during the tribulation will reign with Jesus for that millennium, Rev 20:4. This is God's Word, NOT my assumption. After the 1000 year reign, the battle of GOG and MAGOG will happen,. it is called Armageddon, Rev 20:7-10.
Then Jesus' White Throne judgment will happen and ALL unbelievers will be condemned to the lake of fire forever. This is the SECOND death, Rev 20:11-15. ONLY Jesus reigns on earth during that time. God the Father and Holy Spirit stay in heaven.

2. Because the Bible does KJ. Why not just accept what it says instead of trying to use your so-called superior lateral thought to make it fit your doctrinal view? Again Jesus reigns, NOT God. Mount Zion was NOT heaven, nor was the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle. God was there but they were NOT heaven. Rev 21:22-27 shows what the New Jerusalem will be like. It will be God's home, FOREVER. This is also shown in Rev 22:1-5 where it shows the NJ will have the River of the Water of Life, and the Tree of Life, Eden restored. ALL physical. Funny how you don't see Eternity as LIFE on earth but you think a physical throne and gates are in a non-corporeal heaven?

I'm sorry but the rest of your post is way too convoluted to actually try to respond to. Your post contains all kinds of human thoughts and reasoning's NOT evidenced in the scriptures., and I have supplied plenty of scriptures for you to gleen the truth from.

I can not agree with Stan. He has me on his ignore list, but others need to understand the whole story.

1.
"Ones" who will rule and reign with Christ are NOT just the myrters of the Tribulation period.

Rev 20:4-6
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Two groups of saints will enter the kingdom:
1) those that God resurrected before the Tribulation and Tribulation martyrs and
2) those that come out of the Tribulation physically alive.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.

John sees certain people sitting on thrones have the privilege to judge in a vision. He does not give their identity. Other Scriptures tell us that saints will judge the world.

1 Corth. 6:1
“Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?”

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

A second group who will reign is the martyrs of the Tribulation. The word “beheaded” means smitten with an axe. The guillotine was just one form of Roman punishment. They probably detached Paul’s head from his body.
The word “for” in “for their witness to Jesus” and “for the word of God” means for the sake of, on account of, because of. The reason they were beheaded was for the sake of the gospel.

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The martyred dead of the Tribulation will come back to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years on earth. During this time, the wolf and the lamb will feed together. The lion will eat straw like an ox. There will be world peace and no more war. Nations will beat their swords into ploughs and spears into pruning hooks.
The earth will know no curse as it does now. The ground will produce its crop abundantly. People one hundred years old will be very young (Isaiah 65:20). Isaiah goes on to say that some will sin and that will affect their life span. Jesus will rule with a rod of iron to control injustices due to sin. That is how righteousness prevails in the Millennium. Justice will triumph.


2.
Stan says......"Again Jesus reigns, NOT God".

"WOW"!!!

Shall we read once again the Word of God as it says in Rev. 20:6
"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years“.

Dr.J. Gill explains that.........
" they shall be delivered from wrath to come; and as their bodies will die no more, their souls will not be subject to any sense of wrath, or to any sort of punishment: and they will be "holy"; they will have no sin in them: but they will be priests of God and of Christ; of God the Father, and of his Son Jesus Christ, being made so to the former by the latter, Revelation 1:6 or of God, even of Christ, that is, of God, who is Christ, since it follows: and shall reign with him; they will be wholly devoted to and employed in the service of God and of Christ, and will be continually offering up the sacrifices of praise, or singing the song of the Lamb, adoring the grace and goodness of God and Christ unto them, shown them both in providence and in grace".

Not only will the Christians reign on this earth with Jesus for 1000 years, but we will live for all eternity in heaven with Jesus, because we have eaten of the Tree of Life which is Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
I can not agree with Stan. He has me on his ignore list, but others need to understand the whole story.

1.
"Ones" who will rule and reign with Christ are NOT just the myrters of the Tribulation period.

Rev 20:4-6
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Two groups of saints will enter the kingdom:
1) those that God resurrected before the Tribulation and Tribulation martyrs and
2) those that come out of the Tribulation physically alive.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.

John sees certain people sitting on thrones have the privilege to judge in a vision. He does not give their identity. Other Scriptures tell us that saints will judge the world.

1 Corth. 6:1
“Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?”

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

A second group who will reign is the martyrs of the Tribulation. The word “beheaded” means smitten with an axe. The guillotine was just one form of Roman punishment. They probably detached Paul’s head from his body.
The word “for” in “for their witness to Jesus” and “for the word of God” means for the sake of, on account of, because of. The reason they were beheaded was for the sake of the gospel.

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The martyred dead of the Tribulation will come back to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years on earth. During this time, the wolf and the lamb will feed together. The lion will eat straw like an ox. There will be world peace and no more war. Nations will beat their swords into ploughs and spears into pruning hooks.
The earth will know no curse as it does now. The ground will produce its crop abundantly. People one hundred years old will be very young (Isaiah 65:20). Isaiah goes on to say that some will sin and that will affect their life span. Jesus will rule with a rod of iron to control injustices due to sin. That is how righteousness prevails in the Millennium. Justice will triumph.


2.
Stan says......"Again Jesus reigns, NOT God".

"WOW"!!!

Shall we read once again the Word of God as it says in Rev. 20:6
"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years“.

Dr.J. Gill explains that.........
" they shall be delivered from wrath to come; and as their bodies will die no more, their souls will not be subject to any sense of wrath, or to any sort of punishment: and they will be "holy"; they will have no sin in them: but they will be priests of God and of Christ; of God the Father, and of his Son Jesus Christ, being made so to the former by the latter, Revelation 1:6 or of God, even of Christ, that is, of God, who is Christ, since it follows: and shall reign with him; they will be wholly devoted to and employed in the service of God and of Christ, and will be continually offering up the sacrifices of praise, or singing the song of the Lamb, adoring the grace and goodness of God and Christ unto them, shown them both in providence and in grace".

Not only will the Christians reign on this earth with Jesus for 1000 years, but we will live for all eternity in heaven with Jesus, because we have eaten of the Tree of Life which is Jesus Christ our Lord.

You called him names or something?
:)
 
I can not agree with Stan. He has me on his ignore list, but others need to understand the whole story.

1.
"Ones" who will rule and reign with Christ are NOT just the myrters of the Tribulation period.

Rev 20:4-6
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Two groups of saints will enter the kingdom:
1) those that God resurrected before the Tribulation and Tribulation martyrs and
2) those that come out of the Tribulation physically alive.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.

John sees certain people sitting on thrones have the privilege to judge in a vision. He does not give their identity. Other Scriptures tell us that saints will judge the world.

1 Corth. 6:1
“Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?”

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

A second group who will reign is the martyrs of the Tribulation. The word “beheaded” means smitten with an axe. The guillotine was just one form of Roman punishment. They probably detached Paul’s head from his body.
The word “for” in “for their witness to Jesus” and “for the word of God” means for the sake of, on account of, because of. The reason they were beheaded was for the sake of the gospel.

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The martyred dead of the Tribulation will come back to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years on earth. During this time, the wolf and the lamb will feed together. The lion will eat straw like an ox. There will be world peace and no more war. Nations will beat their swords into ploughs and spears into pruning hooks.
The earth will know no curse as it does now. The ground will produce its crop abundantly. People one hundred years old will be very young (Isaiah 65:20). Isaiah goes on to say that some will sin and that will affect their life span. Jesus will rule with a rod of iron to control injustices due to sin. That is how righteousness prevails in the Millennium. Justice will triumph.


2.
Stan says......"Again Jesus reigns, NOT God".

"WOW"!!!

Shall we read once again the Word of God as it says in Rev. 20:6
"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years“.

Dr.J. Gill explains that.........
" they shall be delivered from wrath to come; and as their bodies will die no more, their souls will not be subject to any sense of wrath, or to any sort of punishment: and they will be "holy"; they will have no sin in them: but they will be priests of God and of Christ; of God the Father, and of his Son Jesus Christ, being made so to the former by the latter, Revelation 1:6 or of God, even of Christ, that is, of God, who is Christ, since it follows: and shall reign with him; they will be wholly devoted to and employed in the service of God and of Christ, and will be continually offering up the sacrifices of praise, or singing the song of the Lamb, adoring the grace and goodness of God and Christ unto them, shown them both in providence and in grace".

Not only will the Christians reign on this earth with Jesus for 1000 years, but we will live for all eternity in heaven with Jesus, because we have eaten of the Tree of Life which is Jesus Christ our Lord.

You called him names or something?
:)
 
In my understanding, all who will ever be saved will occur at the beginning of the Millennium, because only they who are of the "first resurrection" is "blessed" (Rev 20:5, 6).
 
In my understanding, all who will ever be saved will occur at the beginning of the Millennium, because only they who are of the "first resurrection" is "blessed" (Rev 20:5, 6).

There is a bit of confusion for me in this. First we believe the resurrection of those in Christ is the first resurrection but Rev 20:4 says those who died in the great tribulation are the first resurrection. However the beginning of verse 4 shows what apparently are those that were in the rapture are on thrones and given authority to judge, which would be consistent with what Paul says in 1 Cor 6:2. In that event, it would appear that all who were raised and raptured, and all who were raised here because they did NOT take the mark of the beast and lost their lives during the great tribulation, will reign with Jesus for 1000 years. It would also appear that those that were saved by their belief and acceptance of the promise of a savior BEFORE Christ came, will be raised in the second resurrection as their names are in the Book of Life.
 
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