Destiny Or Free Will?

[Big Moose]

Thoughts on why God didn't do this. God can create a scenario that He knows the outcome, but not necessarily all the events that get us to said outcome. He has the power to block His knowledge of the beforehand knowing our decisions. This would make a more interesting creation, don't you think? How would you like to know every word and scene of every movie before you saw it. Not much of an experience to be had.
Same reason to not just make perfect beings that obey Him. Just a bunch of robots that do what you program. BBOORRIINNGG!!! It's like playing chess with a computer and you know the programming for the moves it chooses. Waste of time, isn't it? So He creates things that have free will and are not predictable. Now I'm not saying this is all a game to Him. But it is an exercise in learning and growth for the human race.
Now we know about the angels who chose the evil side. Just as some of the angels were disloyal, He uses this life of ours to weed out the disloyal people. Why keep the bad element? In a garden you pull the weeds out and let them die to keep the productive plants. Yes, God started with a garden, (cheekiness intended).
Question would be, why wouldn't God want to have a creation in which the outcome is known, but everyone's choices can determine how we get there and how long it takes to get there. Just as a gardener plants tomato seeds and knows he will eventually get tomatoes in the end. The growth of the plant and which side the tomatoes grow on and how tall the plant gets is determined by the randomness of environment, soil, sun, water and such.

 

[SergioL]

Thoughts on why God didn't do this. God can create a scenario that He knows the outcome, but not necessarily all the events that get us to said outcome. He has the power to block His knowledge of the beforehand knowing our decisions. This would make a more interesting creation, don't you think? How would you like to know every word and scene of every movie before you saw it. Not much of an experience to be had.
Same reason to not just make perfect beings that obey Him. Just a bunch of robots that do what you program. BBOORRIINNGG!!! It's like playing chess with a computer and you know the programming for the moves it chooses. Waste of time, isn't it? So He creates things that have free will and are not predictable. Now I'm not saying this is all a game to Him. But it is an exercise in learning and growth for the human race.
Now we know about the angels who chose the evil side. Just as some of the angels were disloyal, He uses this life of ours to weed out the disloyal people. Why keep the bad element? In a garden you pull the weeds out and let them die to keep the productive plants. Yes, God started with a garden, (cheekiness intended).
Question would be, why wouldn't God want to have a creation in which the outcome is known, but everyone's choices can determine how we get there and how long it takes to get there. Just as a gardener plants tomato seeds and knows he will eventually get tomatoes in the end. The growth of the plant and which side the tomatoes grow on and how tall the plant gets is determined by the randomness of environment, soil, sun, water and such.

What you are positing here is nowhere to be found in the Bible. The Bible states that God knows everything, the past and the future. The rebel ones (angels and humans) are there to teach us a lesson. On them God shows us his justice and his power. Also, by witnessing God's justice, we can fully appreciate His mercy.

 

[MichaelH]

I don't think that's exactly what Bars' 2-T physics theory suggests, so much as simply laying a framework for the possible coexistence of eternity/timelessness and chronological time from a mathematical perspective.

For a Christian, it wouldn't necessarily suggest a particular way that God interacts with us, but offers an explanation from physics for how God could have foreknowledge of everything, and we can still be held accountable for our choices.

Granted, it's a doctrine much older than Star Trek, but a pretty amazing Doctrine that came out way back in the day of the dinosaurs.

Yes, my contention is that Aminianism is ultimately another kind of determinism, since God could have chosen NOT to create those who would reject him.

Both of these doctrines are extremely old man made doctrines. God can't have foreknowledge of something without it being a causative and reverting back to election anyway. What many call Foreknowledge then would have to be labeled God's wisdom by which God knows only the "Possible" outcome of something. God did not know Adam would fail, but God knew it was possible since God dropped the Tree of Calamity in the Garden.

Those that believe in this Aminianism nonsense believe God knew Adam would make a choice to eat the fruit under his own free will. So God drops the match anyway, knowing the forest will burn to the ground and causes thousands of years of death to grip his creation under the curse.

Then God after causing all that death says....... I take no pleasure in the wicked that perish.
Even better, God says it grieved his heart to destroy mankind in the flood, even though God caused it through foreknowledge or election.

They make God out to be an idiot.

scripture tells us exactly how God responds to man and what God knows and does not know.

No scripture contradicts, and we need to pull our heads out of mans garbage religion.

 

[MichaelH]

What you are positing here is nowhere to be found in the Bible. The Bible states that God knows everything, the past and the future. The rebel ones (angels and humans) are there to teach us a lesson. On them God shows us his justice and his power. Also, by witnessing God's justice, we can fully appreciate His mercy.

Careful........... before you call out someone not knowing scripture, there is no scripture stating what you just said. You said your a Calvinist. They believe God causes, not that God is just a fortune teller.

 

[Big Moose]

The blanket statement that "God knows everything" has major problems with it. An example is someone destined to do something in the future. This person decides to play Russian roulette. Eventually, with enough tries, the person will shoot themselves. The destiny line of thinking would say the empty chamber will always line up, if they have a predetermined future. Now you could say God could change your destiny because you are being an imbecile. Since He is all powerful, He could do that. But then it becomes moot, because your free will can change your destiny.

 

[Glomung]

SergioL, your argument is invalid.
If God only created those who would serve him the world would not be as it is.
Christ would not have needed to come down here and get crucified.

The Bible makes it obvious - man is sinful and cannot save himself, God has made the offer of salvation to ALL,
some take the offer, some don't. All are completely free to choose any way they want

We are discussing how the world actually is, not how you would like it to be.

 

[Glomung]

God does know everything, all that was and all that will ever be.
He knows all your choices long before you make them.
That does not in any way suggest that He makes you do anything.

 

[Big Moose]

I believe it all comes down to, God has predestined a future for you. And it is awesome. He chooses you and calls you to follow Him on this path. You must choose to answer the call, and follow by faith. This covers the scripture which speak of believers being predestined. Many choose to not answer the call and refuse to believe and deny God, or they believe but cannot muster the faith to follow His will. These are the ones which He uses their wickedness to accomplish His overall plan. This covers how He hardens hearts and gives them delusions to believe in the evil.
This allows for the free will of mankind to choose good or evil, and also the predestined plan we all have. Many just do not realize the outcome. This is why we have to make the effort for the saving of others. The devil's influence can blow us off our course, and repentance is needed to get back on the strait and narrow.

 

[Roads]

They make God out to be an idiot.

Or, we can just say, they make God out to be smarter than what we can wrap our heads around.

 

[autumn oddity]

Im gonna straddle the fence and say a little of both.

 

[Big Moose]

God does know everything that He has ordained to be knowable. He set up a framework which includes laws which He follows. His framework can also include individuals choices to be unknowable beforehand, for it is His desire that all be saved and He would not create souls predetermined to go against His own desire. That would make God double-minded. That would go against scripture.

 

[MichaelH]

God does know everything that He has ordained to be knowable. He set up a framework which includes laws which He follows. His framework can also include individuals choices to be unknowable beforehand, for it is His desire that all be saved and He would not create souls predetermined to go against His own desire. That would make God double-minded. That would go against scripture.

Ordained to be knowable?

Scripture says that God knows all things about the heart. So, every motive and idea man is about to do, God is going to know the true intent and the plan.

God knows the plans of the enemy, for God alerts of the snare. Leads us not into trials, temptations. He knows where those are at.

God also knows what he declares and causes according to the consul of his will. As anyone would. If God says something it happens.

So God just did not use fortune telling ability to happen to know a donkey was going to show up for Jesus and by luck one was going to be there the day God needed it.............. NO, God spoke and the donkey became a reality of being there when it needed to be there.

There is an election, but conditional. There is what God spoke that will come to pass.

 

[SergioL]

Careful........... before you call out someone not knowing scripture, there is no scripture stating what you just said. You said your a Calvinist. They believe God causes, not that God is just a fortune teller.

I didn't say that he doesn't know the scriptures, what I said is that this idea according to which God doesn't know what's going to happen is not Biblical. I am not a Bible scholar, but I am 100% sure that such a representation of the Universe is not present in the Bible. No matter how many times you have read the Bible, you can always come up with theories that are not supported by the scriptures.

 

[SergioL]

SergioL, your argument is invalid.
If God only created those who would serve him the world would not be as it is.
Christ would not have needed to come down here and get crucified.

The Bible makes it obvious - man is sinful and cannot save himself, God has made the offer of salvation to ALL,
some take the offer, some don't. All are completely free to choose any way they want

We are discussing how the world actually is, not how you would like it to be.

But you have to recognize the fact that endowing mankind with free will and saving all mankind are not incompatible with each other. God could have created only those human beings who would use their free will to repent and accept the Gospel. Therefore, free will is not an impediment to universal salvation. God chose to do otherwise and that tells us something about God's plan, something which is incompatible with Arminianism and that, ultimately, proves Arminianism wrong.

 

[SergioL]

God does know everything, all that was and all that will ever be.
He knows all your choices long before you make them.
That does not in any way suggest that He makes you do anything.

But if he foreknew all of our decisions even before the foundation of the world, why did he create those whom he knew were going to reject him? That's equivalent to predestining them for damnation. You can say that these people chose to be damned, which is true, but that doesn't nullify the fact that damnation was their destiny from the very beginning.

 

[MichaelH]

I didn't say that he doesn't know the scriptures, what I said is that this idea according to which God doesn't know what's going to happen is not Biblical. I am not a Bible scholar, but I am 100% sure that such a representation of the Universe is not present in the Bible. No matter how many times you have read the Bible, you can always come up with theories that are not supported by the scriptures.

Amen, that is very honest Brother and I appreciate that. God is a Person so to speak, and we want to define God the way we think a god should be to us and the World. Often because of this method of theories you mentioned, we tend to gravitate toward the doctrines that paint the best picture that we understand God as.

Some go with just straight Foreknowledge and complete free will..........................

Some, God causes everything and the only foreknowledge is because God caused it. God is no fortune teller but in complete control of everyone and everything.

Some in between such as a lot of Pentecostals beliefs, who believe in both foreknowledge and election amazing enough though they won't call it that.

Our mind likes to fill in the blanks of things, and we all come up with ideas and understandings that someone "WHO GOD HAS REVEALED IT TO." Can prove us wrong in scripture we never even knew meant that or was even there.

That is a awesome attitude to have, and it blessed me to see some like that.

 

[MichaelH]

But if he foreknew all of our decisions even before the foundation of the world, why did he create those whom he knew were going to reject him? That's equivalent to predestining them for damnation. You can say that these people chose to be damned, which is true, but that doesn't nullify the fact that damnation was their destiny from the very beginning.

God placed the spirit in man............ That is a scripture!!!! So God

A) is clueless until one day the light bulb comes on for him and he just knows what man will choose.

Or

B) God is in complete control and knew by design that the man he put in the body would go to hell.

It's actually a very old "Hardcore" Calvinism and armanisim (however you spell that) debate.

What if....................... Scriptures prove that God has an elected plan for everyone, but does not know what choice they will make?
If man obey's and follows God, then they are on a predetermined path that is already foretold and planed out. Off the path and obedience to God, then they go into a place God never planed or intended them to go.

What if it's that?

 

[SergioL]

God placed the spirit in man............ That is a scripture!!!! So God

A) is clueless until one day the light bulb comes on for him and he just knows what man will choose.

Or

B) God is in complete control and knew by design that the man he put in the body would go to hell.

It's actually a very old "Hardcore" Calvinism and armanisim (however you spell that) debate.

What if....................... Scriptures prove that God has an elected plan for everyone, but does not know what choice they will make?
If man obey's and follows God, then they are on a predetermined path that is already foretold and planed out. Off the path and obedience to God, then they go into a place God never planed or intended them to go.

What if it's that?

That god would be a limited god who has no clue of what the future is going to look like, a god who has no control over the universe. Actually, in the scenario that you depicted, the fate of the universe would depend on mankind and not on God.

 

[SergioL]

Amen, that is very honest Brother and I appreciate that. God is a Person so to speak, and we want to define God the way we think a god should be to us and the World. Often because of this method of theories you mentioned, we tend to gravitate toward the doctrines that paint the best picture that we understand God as.

Some go with just straight Foreknowledge and complete free will..........................

Some, God causes everything and the only foreknowledge is because God caused it. God is no fortune teller but in complete control of everyone and everything.

Some in between such as a lot of Pentecostals beliefs, who believe in both foreknowledge and election amazing enough though they won't call it that.

Our mind likes to fill in the blanks of things, and we all come up with ideas and understandings that someone "WHO GOD HAS REVEALED IT TO." Can prove us wrong in scripture we never even knew meant that or was even there.

That is a awesome attitude to have, and it blessed me to see some like that.

Thank you very much, brother.

 

[Glomung]

But if he foreknew all of our decisions even before the foundation of the world, why did he create those whom he knew were going to reject him? That's equivalent to predestining them for damnation. You can say that these people chose to be damned, which is true, but that doesn't nullify the fact that damnation was their destiny from the very beginning.

You seems very must stuck on the notion of destiny, dump it, it corrupts your thinking.
No one is "destined" to do anything.

To know is not to force. The people that "go bad" and end up in Hell were never predestined to anything.
They had the same choices to make as those who will go to Heaven.
Again, to know the future is not the same as causing the future.

You cannot have free will and predestination. The two concepts are mutually exclusive.