Destiny Or Free Will?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Big Moose, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. How about....

    1 John 5:13 (ESV)
    13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

    1 Samuel 15:27 (ESV)
    Samuel told Saul.................
    "The Lord has taken the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it... to one better than you".

    It was over 20 years later, after many close calls, that David actually became king of all Israel.

    Isaiah 46:9-11................
    "Remember the former things, those of long ago. I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do".

    Isaiah 40:32.........
    "He brings princes to naught and reduces the rulers of this world to nothing".

    Jeremiah 1:10.......
    "He tears down and destroys and builds up and plants nations and kingdoms".

    Romans 13:1..........
    "There is no authority except that which God has established".

    Jeremiah 27............
    God declares, "With my great power and outstretched arm I made the earth and its people and the animals that are on it, and I give it to anyone I please".

    Deut. 32:39...........
    God says, "There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand".

    Isaiah 45:7.............
    "I am the Lord and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I the Lord do all these things".
  2. Major, have you ever considered actually reading what others have said already? hard concept I know.
    I make a effort though.

    We are talking about Election V.S foreknowledge. All those scriptures you posted are election.

    I have tired to show you the difference before, but you did not grasp it back then either.

    God Causes..... Saul as King. Saul designed by God to save the people.

    To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me.
    (1Sa 9:16)

    6 Chapters later....... God repents that He even Made Saul King
    It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
    (1Sa 15:11)

    You see how the Lord sets things in place, but it's man that messes it up, Not God for knowing ahead of time He was making a bad choice. God don't make bad choices Major. This crazy foreknowledge Doctrine believes God is a complete idiot. Saul was the best choice, and God believed in him............ Saul messed it up, God had nothing to do with it.

    We don't do things like Microwave money to dry it off as it can catch fire........ (Don't ask How I know) I have foreknowledge about it, and I know it don't end well.

    God is smarter than me, and does not do things with foreknowledge it won't end well.

    That is what the thread is about........... Posting scriptures about God causes is not very helpful. Go find the scriptures where God did not know, or consider it and examine those also. We take the Whole word, not just the parts we like. I have been trying to get that across to you so we can actually have discussions.
  3. Now you need to reconcile those with Jeremiah 19:5
    NIV-5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
    KJV-5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
    NLT-5 They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!
    YLT-5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons with fire, burnt-offerings to Baal, that I commanded not, nor spake of, nor did it come up on My heart.

    In all these, God says, "I didn't command it, mention it, or speak it, nor did I even think it!". Yet it happened anyway, through the choices they made. You must have this agree with other scripture, and in God not having spoke such a thing, in your thinking, it could not have happened. You do have God knowing everything ahead of time, so this passage would make God a liar, since He says He did not command this to occur, nor even thought of making this occur.
  4. That is not a problem moose, and God never lies. The problem is always with our understanding or the lack thereof, never God!

    Jere. 19:5 is answered the same way as Jere. 7:31. Is the Lord actually saying He did not think of something? Even in open theism, God knows all things actual as well as potential.

    That means God can know all things in the present tense as well as all possibilities of things that could exist. Certainly God who knew the past sins of Israel would have thought about them doing such sin -- as horrible as it was. So, it doesn't make sense to interpret this as God admitting that He never thought of something.

    Since we can conclude that God can contemplate all potential forms of rebellion, we can also conclude that God is addressing the issue of human moral behavior instead of expressing ignorance since that is what God is talking about. In other words, their sin did not enter the intention of God's heart in His plans for Judah.
  5. What?

    God said it did not enter into his mind they would do such a thing. That is not ignorance Major, that is a God who thinks the best like in Jer 29:11.

    We all know everything can be possible, even we know a safe could fall out of the sky and hit us. A Eagle dropped a rattlesnake in a car passing by with kids in it. We are not talking about sitting around thinking what can be possible. We are talking about God, how he thinks about man, what he believes about man. God was not thinking or believing they would mess it up that bad, never entered into his mind.

    Adultery can enter into any Marriage, do we eye our wives suspiciously every time we see them?

    God put the Tree of calamity in the Garden with Adam. Just one thing Adam was not suppose to do, which was eat the fruit off that tree.

    No scripture indicates God did not believe Adam would disobey him............. In fact, God said he was going to bless Adam and told Adam to be fruitful and Multiply.

    And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
    (Gen 1:28)

    Adam never saw this, Adam died for his transgression.

    If God knew, then God just lied to Adam, Lied to Israel about giving them the promise land and Lied to Eli about his house being the royal priest forever.

    Is God a liar Major? To know one thing and say another is called lying..............
  6. "In other words, their sin did not enter the intention of God's heart in His plans for Judah."
    You are right on this point Major. It was not God's intention for man to do this. Yet man did it anyway. Why would the almighty God allow His sovereign intentions, desires and will to be up-ended, thwarted or denied? Kinda silly to think God knew this beforehand, told them the consequences of their choice, promised blessings for good and wrath for evil, and then still got angry when they did what He knew they would.
  7. Major is a trip at times.
  8. So if some folks cant get their mind around the fact that God knows the end from the beginning, then God must not be who he says He is...?

    Re 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    He is the ALL-MIGHTY God, he is not limited by temporal time! He made time and is not subject to time. Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Before time began He was "slain" for Gods own purpose. If some cant understand the mystery that has been hidden before the ages? That is no surprise!
  9. Not really...seen this with my own children to a more or less fact I have to admit I have done some stupid things I knew would not end well and did them anyway and later got mad at myself...

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