Destiny Or Free Will?

[Cosmicwaffle]

I lean to Calvinism in the sense that God has everything under his control, and the Bible points out he is the potter who forms the clay, so to speak. I don't want to limit God by saying he can't know this or that, I just say he knows everything that CAN be known.

But I also lean Arminian in the sense that God doesn't chose our choices for us. Meaning he doesn't make us believe and love him. We have to chose that ourselves based on what he's done for us. I say this because if he did choose our choices, then that means he chooses our sin as well.

But if someone wants to shed some light on all of this, please do.

 

[SergioL]

You seems very must stuck on the notion of destiny, dump it, it corrupts your thinking.
No one is "destined" to do anything.

To know is not to force. The people that "go bad" and end up in Hell were never predestined to anything.
They had the same choices to make as those who will go to Heaven.
Again, to know the future is not the same as causing the future.

You cannot have free will and predestination. The two concepts are mutually exclusive.

Yes, they chose to go to hell, but God knew that they were going to choose that. He decided to create them even though he knew that they would end up in hell. So, with or without Arminianism, we must conclude that God has created certain people with the sole purpose of showing his wrath and his justice on them. Do they deserve this fate? Absolutely, both with or without Arminianism. In conclusion, Arminianism is self-contradictory, since it affirms that God would never create someone for the sole purpose of showing his wrath and his justice on him, despite the fact that if we follow Arminianism to its ultimate logical conclusions we must accept the idea that God created certain people only to show his wrath and justice on them.

 

[Brother Paul]

I am a Calvinist and my love for God is genuine. So, predetermination and genuine love for God are not mutually exclusive.

If He made you love Him irresistibly then your love may FEEL genuine but it is contrived and therefore not real....If I program a computer to tell me constantly how much it adores me that adoration is false...the computer knows no better and has no choice...true or genuine love exists in the presence of the possibility to not love...

Predetermination is not found in the word of God....predestination is by His foreknowledge (see Paul and Peter)...if Calvins double predestination doctrine is correct then even the devil was just obeying God's will for him irresistibly...

Now are you sure you are a true Calvinist or a post-Dort Reformed Christian (there is a difference)...post-Dort Reformed camp could not negate one aspect of the remonstrance accusations (that in Calvinism God becomes the master and author of all that is evil) and so they opted to admit man has free will but that he can ONLY choose evil...a it different...as a person trained in Calvinist apologetics that difference though subtly is HUGE...

brother Paul

 

[MichaelH]

That god would be a limited god who has no clue of what the future is going to look like, a god who has no control over the universe. Actually, in the scenario that you depicted, the fate of the universe would depend on mankind and not on God.

Well, I'll pull the scripture. I have been studying this for over 17 years when God first alerted me to the fact that How would he know what man would choose. It confused me then by my concept of God, but, God is faithful and built a foundation by which I am able to grasp.

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
(Isa 46:10)

What God says, is what happens. Nothing can change what God said.............. (Though many scriptures where God can be reasoned with)

So the universe according to this scripture would not be in the hands of man. God already has spoken Revelation and the prophets.

So, what does scripture say about the man that is part of this big plan? We know God will judge death and hell, (Those being dead on earth brought back those in hell standing before) Nothing changes that. (Rev 20:13)

The question is about individual man.

He told Jeremiah that I knew you before the womb, and a prophet I have called thee.

We have a knowing, and a calling.................. In other words God does not make junk, but has a purpose and plan for every man.
We are created for his workmanship, his plan.

If we examine scriptures, we find a God who is very understandable, and very much like us because he made us like him. He is actually a real father.

Be blessed.

 

[SergioL]

If He made you love Him irresistibly then your love may FEEL genuine but it is contrived and therefore not real....If I program a computer to tell me constantly how much it adores me that adoration is false...the computer knows no better and has no choice...true or genuine love exists in the presence of the possibility to not love...

Not at all. I believe that all people would genuinely love God if they happen to know God as he really is. The problem with the enemies of the faith is that they don't get to know God because sin distorts their thinking processes. They are slaves of sin and that makes their judgment flawed. We cannot ride ourselves of this distorting effect of sin without the help of God. We can only judge rightly when God removes the veil from our eyes.

 

[Brother Paul]

But God chose to create those that would reject him. Maybe he wants them to be saved, but he knew from the very beginning that such a thing would not happen. So, why is it wrong to say that these people are destined to damnation (even if they have free will)?

Because one is MADE TO reject and the other WILLS TO reject...this is historically the orthodox view (even true if one reads ALL of Augustine)

 

[SergioL]

Well, I'll pull the scripture. I have been studying this for over 17 years when God first alerted me to the fact that How would he know what man would choose. It confused me then by my concept of God, but, God is faithful and built a foundation by which I am able to grasp.

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
(Isa 46:10)

What God says, is what happens. Nothing can change what God said.............. (Though many scriptures where God can be reasoned with)

So the universe according to this scripture would not be in the hands of man. God already has spoken Revelation and the prophets.

So, what does scripture say about the man that is part of this big plan? We know God will judge death and hell, (Those being dead on earth brought back those in hell standing before) Nothing changes that. (Rev 20:13)

The question is about individual man.

He told Jeremiah that I knew you before the womb, and a prophet I have called thee.

We have a knowing, and a calling.................. In other words God does not make junk, but has a purpose and plan for every man.
We are created for his workmanship, his plan.

If we examine scriptures, we find a God who is very understandable, and very much like us because he made us like him. He is actually a real father.

Be blessed.

Yes, I also believe that God has a purpose for all of us, and that such a purpose always contributes to the glory of God and the glory of those who were appointed to eternal salvation. However, this purpose could be to reject God, since even such a purpose can be useful and even necessary to God's plan. That's why God said to Pharaoh "For this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth" (Exodus 9:16). God bless you too, brother.

 

[SergioL]

Because one is MADE TO reject and the other WILLS TO reject...this is historically the orthodox view (even true if one reads ALL of Augustine)

Even a Calvinist like me would accept that being made to reject is completely compatible with willing to reject.

 

[Mitspa]

I am a Calvinist and my love for God is genuine. So, predetermination and genuine love for God are not mutually exclusive.

Wow I have been on these forums for years now and heard folks go on and on about how destructive Calvinist are...but I had never met one or known one? You are the first that I have ever met to make this claim! Are you a member of that denom or just consider your self to hold those views?

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

Wow I have been on these forums for years now and heard folks go on and on about how destructive Calvinist are...but I had never met one or known one? You are the first that I have ever met to make this claim! Are you a member of that denom or just consider your self to hold those views?

It's not a denomination, just beliefs about how God works with humans.

 

[SergioL]

Wow I have been on these forums for years now and heard folks go on and on about how destructive Calvinist are...but I had never met one or known one? You are the first that I have ever met to make this claim! Are you a member of that denom or just consider your self to hold those views?

I just consider myself to hold those views.

 

[Mitspa]

I just consider myself to hold those views.

Oh, there is
"Calvinist" churches and demons.. Never met one...I agree with some of Calvinist doctrine but I don't think anyone accepts all his teachings? I do think some use that tag to kind of give others a idea of their doctrines and such... Been a long day at work and really too tired to discuss doctrine right now, but I hope you stick around for a few days so we might later?...

 

[SergioL]

Oh, there is
"Calvinist" churches and demons.. Never met one...I agree with some of Calvinist doctrine but I don't think anyone accepts all his teachings? I do think some use that tag to kind of give others a idea of their doctrines and such... Been a long day at work and really too tired to discuss doctrine right now, but I hope you stick around for a few days so we might later?...

Yes, I intend to be around for a long time. Also, I must say that I don't believe in all the tenets of Calvinism. For example, I don't believe in limited atonement.

 

[MichaelH]

Yes, I also believe that God has a purpose for all of us, and that such a purpose always contributes to the glory of God and the glory of those who were appointed to eternal salvation. However, this purpose could be to reject God, since even such a purpose can be useful and even necessary to God's plan. That's why God said to Pharaoh "For this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth" (Exodus 9:16). God bless you too, brother.

OK..........................

Amen



God has many things to proclaim his name upon the Earth. My son I was told was suppose to die of cancer. I said after getting the report with long life my God will satisfy him.

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
(2Ti 2:20-21)

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What did pharaoh choose?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(Rom 9:22)

did not God set up Pharaoh? Did God not know Pharaoh? Did not Pharaoh harden his own heart?

Did not God say to Abraham that Israel would go into bondage and I will judge that nation?

And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
(Gen 15:13-14)

Now the judgement could have been of good report, but God said.............. I think that it will take a strong hand to bring you out of Egypt.

If any man be a vessel of dishonor, they........ (the man) can change that and be a vessel of honor.

No scripture contradicts.

Pharaoh, whom God set up, gave wealth, choose to harden his own heart and not let Israel go.. Israel was scattered, and not far from Shem, brought unto a nation that allowed then to multiply and control, to bring out the seed of Israel in one place, and one accord.

God used Egypt, to control and gather together.

Election or Pharaoh choice?

 

[SergioL]

OK..........................

Amen



God has many things to proclaim his name upon the Earth. My son I was told was suppose to die of cancer. I said after getting the report with long life my God will satisfy him.

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
(2Ti 2:20-21)

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What did pharaoh choose?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(Rom 9:22)

did not God set up Pharaoh? Did God not know Pharaoh? Did not Pharaoh harden his own heart?

Did not God say to Abraham that Israel would go into bondage and I will judge that nation?

And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
(Gen 15:13-14)

Now the judgement could have been of good report, but God said.............. I think that it will take a strong hand to bring you out of Egypt.

If any man be a vessel of dishonor, they........ (the man) can change that and be a vessel of honor.

No scripture contradicts.

Pharaoh, whom God set up, gave wealth, choose to harden his own heart and not let Israel go.. Israel was scattered, and not far from Shem, brought unto a nation that allowed then to multiply and control, to bring out the seed of Israel in one place, and one accord.

God used Egypt, to control and gather together.

Election or Pharaoh choice?

In my opinion, election which leads to choice. However, I could be wrong about this, of course.

 

[MichaelH]

In my opinion, election which leads to choice. However, I could be wrong about this, of course.

I would not say your wrong. You seem to want to know what is right, so you just need information to make a right choice.

There is an election.

I can prove that in the Word.

However, I can also prove that God does not know what men will choose in the long run.

God is a Father, and we made in his image. So God looks at us as on his level. Any man who takes on the nature of the beast or perverts the level on which they are created gets judged.

Pharaoh, God said...................... I seems it will take a strong arm to bring out Israel.

God set Pharaoh up, but I believe that since Israel was so young, coming from the descendants of Noah, that He needed a place to gather them and multiply them and keep them together. Egypt was the perfect choice.

Go back and see how early from the flood God began to gather Israel.

God said.............. It repents me that I have made Saul King, For Saul won't obey me.

Repent here in Hebrew means a long sigh, or a disappointment. God picked the best King, it was Saul that would not obey. We see God dealing with man and their choices, and we see God proclaiming the end of the World. Jesus said, many are called, few or chosen. In other words, the call is to many, but many refuse the call. Whatever the case, what God said, will come to pass with or without the man whom He called.

Blessings.

 

[SergioL]

However, I can also prove that God does not know what men will choose in the long run.

Could you please provide some verses?

 

[MichaelH]

Could you please provide some verses?

There are so many...............

Jesus said........................... instead of cutting down the tree, dung around it and give it a year before chopping it down and casting it into the fire.

Paul through the Holy Spirit said............ How are you to know that you will save your spouse.

Jesus did not say that he already knew the tree would not make it. He is telling us how God operates and what God knows. God knows the heart, but the heart can change.

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
(Num 23:19)

God speaks, and that is final.

1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

God does not change.............

Jer_4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

What God said, is final.................. He will not change it.

HOWEVER.,.................................................


God is not unreasonable to respond to man who has changed their heart toward him.

Jer_18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.


God will take back the good he planed for men.

Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
(Gen 18:21)

The cry of sin comes up to God from Sodom. God said I will go down and look, and if the cry matches the sin, then I will know.

Gen_22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Through Abraham's obedience, God then knew Abraham would be the seed, a feared God.

Just as Jesus said............. Give the tree all the chance, the dung and if not in a year it produces fruit no Fruit...................., cut it down. (Luke 13:8- somewhere)


God looks the heart, for he knows all things about the the heart, but man can change his heart.

I have many more scriptures, but there is a few.

God tells us how he operates, and to do wrong shows God you can't be trusted with other things. We must obey him and keep our word to him, for that is how he knows.

Blessings.

 

[SergioL]

There are so many...............

Jesus said........................... instead of cutting down the tree, dung around it and give it a year before chopping it down and casting it into the fire.

Paul through the Holy Spirit said............ How are you to know that you will save your spouse.

Jesus did not say that he already knew the tree would not make it. He is telling us how God operates and what God knows. God knows the heart, but the heart can change.

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
(Num 23:19)

God speaks, and that is final.

1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

God does not change.............

Jer_4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

What God said, is final.................. He will not change it.

HOWEVER.,.................................................


God is not unreasonable to respond to man who has changed their heart toward him.

Jer_18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.


God will take back the good he planed for men.

Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
(Gen 18:21)

The cry of sin comes up to God from Sodom. God said I will go down and look, and if the cry matches the sin, then I will know.

Gen_22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Through Abraham's obedience, God then knew Abraham would be the seed, a feared God.

Just as Jesus said............. Give the tree all the chance, the dung and if not in a year it produces fruit no Fruit...................., cut it down. (Luke 13:8- somewhere)


God looks the heart, for he knows all things about the the heart, but man can change his heart.

I have many more scriptures, but there is a few.

God tells us how he operates, and to do wrong shows God you can't be trusted with other things. We must obey him and keep our word to him, for that is how he knows.

Blessings.

In my opinion none of the scriptures that you cited proves that God doesn't know what's going to happen in the future. On the contrary, there are a lot of verses which prove that God knows the future as the palm of his hand.

Psalm 147:5

1 John 3:19-20

Psalm 139:4

Jeremiah 1:5

Acts 1:24

1 Chronicles 28:9

 

[Brother Paul]

Not at all. I believe that all people would genuinely love God if they happen to know God as he really is. The problem with the enemies of the faith is that they don't get to know God because sin distorts their thinking processes. They are slaves of sin and that makes their judgment flawed. We cannot ride ourselves of this distorting effect of sin without the help of God. We can only judge rightly when God removes the veil from our eyes.

Well you have no argument from me on this...it is God who removes the veil...