Destiny Or Free Will?
- Thread starter Big Moose
- Start date
There is no doubt that God has used some as puppets and even raised up some to do specific things...even Judas was born to be a son of perdition. But that is not the same as God being behind and causing the evils of a Hitler for example...deciding and doing all that would tempt him to do what he did...to say so would be to say when men are tempted it is God who tempted them to sin the very sins they sinned and that would be blaspheme.
This would mean one is already a child of God (regenerated, born from above, His child) before they receive Him...in fact in order that they can receive Him...
If God doesn't know what's going to happen, then he is not God. How can he be in control of the universe if he has no knowledge of the consequences of his actions? How can he judge people if he doesn't know what lies within their hearts? God must know everything in order to be God.
I believe that men are naturally drawn to sin because of their fallen nature. So, in the absence of God, they would engage in every possible form of sin. I think it's fair to say that even people like Hitler were refrained by God (to a certain extent) rather than tempted by God.
In my opinion, it doesn't mean that. Regeneration comes through faith, and faith is a gift of God. So, God regenerates you by bestowing faith upon you. External manifestations of that faith are just consequences of the work that God has done within you.
Yes but you can see how different that would be from concluding God caused him to sin the sins that he sinned (which would be the conclusion of John Calvin...because all is the will of God alone). So you have revealed to me that you are not really a Calvinist but more probably a person of the reformed camp (holding to a post-Dort doctrinal perspective which having been a Calvinist for a solid decade I have much more respect for). To me the pure Calvinist would say even the murders and tortures and exiles of the Geneva Calvinists were God's will (because after all they were THE elect...thus no matter what they did it was the will of God...we see this today in militant Islam...whatever...rape, torture, murder....it is the will of God) and to that I say God forbid!
MichaelH
Inactive
No scripture proves that Judas was the one raised up.
We need scripture to prove anything and your going to come up short on this. We have a prophecy, something God said that will come to pass. Judas heart was as such that God used him to bring to pass what God said. It could have been anyone that followed Jesus to point Jesus out to the bad guys.
You need a scripture to prove anything and there is none that Judas was picked, but that Judas filled the role.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Judas was a little one at one time.........(I could post bunch more) All scripture must match and you should know better Paul having dwelt with me in the past about scripture matching.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word....Ephesians 2:8-10 tells us being saved is the gift of God which is by grace through faith...
God initiates by the Spirit and/or the word (which is by grace for God owes no man anything as all have sinned) man must respond appropriately (which is of his own will, him being convicted he either falls on his face or resists the Holy Spirit)...if one receives Him to them he gives the power to become (something they are not yet) the children of God.
They hear (which is of grace) and after they hear the gospel of their salvation, if they trust His word, then He seals them with the Holy Spirit.
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The Bible clearly says that no man is tempted by God (James 1:13). Hence, in my opinion, God hardened people like Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-18) not by tempting them, but by removing his protection from them (Matthew 6:13), so that they might be tempted by Satan (Revelations 12:9). Would you agree with this?
God, already foreknowing what Cain was going to do, audibly speaks to Cain and offers him "to go and do it right" and promises him that if he does "all will go well" with him, BUT if he does not, THEN sin is at the door waiting to rule over him.
Now Cain at this juncture was free not to do what he was planning, and to "go and do it right" (never for a moment being compelled by God to do this evil), and had he done so, God being faithful (not a man that He should lie) would have kept His promise. God initiated by grace the opportunity for salvation through not disregarding His word and Cain was given the option...Cain chose to sin (thus showing himself to be his own lord/god - Genesis 3:5)
Now Cain at this juncture was free not to do what he was planning, and to "go and do it right" (never for a moment being compelled by God to do this evil), and had he done so, God being faithful (not a man that He should lie) would have kept His promise. God initiated by grace the opportunity for salvation through not disregarding His word and Cain was given the option...Cain chose to sin (thus showing himself to be his own lord/god - Genesis 3:5)
Yes but you must remember this Pharaoh was already hardened against the Israelites. God merely used what was already the man's propensity for His glory, and to the good of those who loved Him. It is like when God sent a lying spirit into the prophets...they were already committed liars...God then used that to work His will for His glory and the purposes He had for His people.
MichaelH
Inactive
another revelation God gave you.
Judgement brings a place to Satan.
God said I think it will take a strong hand to bring my people out from Pharaoh. God's thinking was based on knowing Pharaoh.
Pharaoh, hardened his own heart, but before it started, Pharaoh was pretty hard anyway. God blessed Pharaoh, and set him up to gather the people of Israel as God told Abraham long ago.
God caused David to number the troops, or Satan caused David to number the troops?
Your correct, by David's heart, he was going to number the troops, and God steeped aside and allowed Satan a place because of David's heart. So both scriptures are true.
You don't seem to be one that believes in election................ Learning and understanding is good, and not following a strict doctrine by men.
The passages that you have cited actually strengthen my point. To have faith in Jesus is to experience regeneration, and this is not our own doing, but the work of God (Ephesians 2:8).
MichaelH
Inactive
Jesus said he was a devil........................ he was not given for destruction either. What that means and in acts that Judas went to his own place is very strange. Satan came in "after" Judas accepted that sup from him. This however was "After" Jesus said one of you is a Devil.
Who was Judas, and who was the man Judas?
We have to be careful about taking one passage and making a doctrine out of it.
There is a whole lot of speculation about who Judas really was, and the scripture does not cover enough to make a conclusion.
blessings.
But I do believe in election. I was saved not because of my superior understanding of the scriptures (not that I have a superior understanding of the scriptures), but because God opened my eyes solely to show his mercy on me. I am not wiser or more just than those who reject Christ.
All men are hardened because of their fallen nature. Regarding the lying spirits, sometimes God allows deception to thrive among the unbelievers so that the secrets of their hearts may be patent to everyone.
I'm not a Calvinist! That's like calling me a democrat because I feed the poor or calling me a republican because I'm against abortion. Pfft!
MichaelH
Inactive
Amen!!! God is Good and my son alive today even though they told me He would not live. All the glory be to God!!!
God gives the increase, Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. All God!!!
However................................. it's not election exactly.
There would be boasting then that God picked us, and the rest he screwed.
Your Father watches what you do, how you respond............ by your actions, you get promoted or stay and keep in the same place.
It is not election for Jesus said, he that is faithful in little, more is given.
Just like Abraham, God said........... Now I know.............. he knew when Abraham would not withhold Issac from him.
There is a thought that we do what we want, but God's plan can't be changed........ It's a dangerous thought, because many are called, but few are chosen from the calling.
Your Father is not much different from us...... (Tons smarter and powerful) but he is not alien. He knows us by our actions and our heart, and why we need to do what he says do
You accepted Jesus, because you had ears to hear. Those without (ears) do not hear, nor consider that they might be saved.
God put the same measure of faith in every man. So judgement will be fair, and every man accountable before our Father.
You had a part also, for it was Grace that was extended to you for something you did not deserve, but your faith latched onto that grace and accepted.
You heard something and believed....... Faith comes by hearing.
Every man that hears can believe.
One man that heard did not believe and built his house on the sand, the other man heard and believed and built his house on the rock. Man has the ability to believe.
be blessed.