Destiny Or Free Will?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Big Moose, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. I thought this would be a good discussion topic. We have free will. But God is omniscient. Yet He was sorry or regretted that He ever made mankind right before the Flood in Genesis 6:5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
    Thoughts on how to reconcile God knowing ahead of time this would happen and yet regretting doing it?
    I have some ideas on this and would like to see what other believers have revealed to them.

    Other related scripture:
    Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
    11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
     
  2. Here come the Arminians!
     
    Cosmicwaffle and Ravindran say Amen and like this.
  3. I think we have beaten this topic enough! I don't know if everyone is ready for another round :D If so, let's go!! Rock and roll..
     
    Where is the Messiah likes this.
  4. Well of course I have some views on this issue that maybe some have never heard? lol
     
  5. Go on..
     
  6. Well I would start by saying the whole concept of "predestination" as has been taught has little to do with what the term means in the Spiritual sense. Predestination is a completely spiritual work of Gods Spirit to conform un into the image of Christ. It is like a path or road in the Spirit, not an outward doctrine to justify the flesh of some group. Also the whole idea that "free-will" is a acceptable term to describe biblical obedience is just error. The surrendering of ones will is the obedience that God requires. Would you like to explore either of those points?
     
  7. How can God predestine when time has no meaning to Him?
     
  8. God made time and it very much has meaning and purpose to Him..He is not subject to time as we understand, but has involved His Own will in this temporal realm, in many ways.
     
  9. God is all knowing, and all powerful. He is the alpha and omega. Nothing happens outside the will of God.
     
  10. Well that is a idea that some have.. He is all knowing and all powerful, but be sure that He has allowed a realm called the temporal realm, that He limits Himself in. Being the Ruler of the eternal realm while bringing into subjection to Christ the things in this temporal realm. So in the "eternal" sense of His Will...yes He is in complete control. But He has given man this temporal realm and man has given that authority to satan. Who is the "god of this age"
     
  11. God limited Himself?
     
  12. Of course God has limited Himself, in the matters of this age. He gave this world to man...man gave that authority to satan. Who is the god of this age... Now in faith we are brought back into power with God...but that is based on real faith and according to Christ. God is not the one doing evil and works against evil according to the laws of faith he has established.
     
  13. A point to remember is that for free will to exist at all, free will must be absolute.

    It sounds nice to say that "nothing happens outside of God's will", but the fact of the matter is that intelligent
    beings do all kinds of things that are in opposition to God's will, and they do them all day and night long.

    It would be better to say that it was God's will was to grant us free will, an He lets us choose where and what we want to be.

    God did not limit Himself in any way, He freed us to be as good or bad as we choose to be.
     
  14. Well of course man became a slave to sin.. and the idea that man is free in his own will to do good..its just a rejection of the scriptures.

    Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    You also seem to make a point and then argue against your own point?
     
  15. Yes certainly.. But I did not understand everything you just said! How do you define predestination?
     
  16. Well of course man became a slave to sin.. and the idea that man is free in his own will to do good..its just a rejection of the scriptures.

    Hardly.
    Christ said "if you being evil can give good gifts" etc. Any person can choose to do good or evil, that we have a innate tendency towards evil is obvious, but saying that "man cannot do good" because scripture says so is nonsense.

    When I drive home, I can drive in a safe manner or like a maniac, the choice is completely mine.
    I can give money to the beggars, or let them starve, the choice is completely mine.

    The Calvinistic notion that "we are completely corrupt and incapable of any virtue" flies in the face of reality.
    In a contest between doctrine and reality, reality always wins.

    You also seem to make a point and then argue against your own point?
    Where?
     
  17. But it depends on what we define as good.. If helping a beggar is good, then why do we need the righteousness of God?
     
  18. You are confusing seperate issues.

    We need the righteousness of God because we have none of our own. It is His grace that will allow us to be perfected so that we may be in His presence.

    "Good" is easy enough to define if you are not pushing an agenda. "good" - any act that supports the mental, spiritual, or physical welfare of a subject person

    Here are examples of the difference
    i.e. good - Doctors without Borders goes to middle of nowhere and provides free medical services to the locals
    i.e. evil - Obama sends US Military to bomb civilians in the middle of nowhere

    That we are unrighteous in ourselves does nt in any way imply that we are completely depraved (though I am sure there are some that are). Being a sinful human does not make one brain dead, even the most corrupt know the difference between good and evil acts. Some always try to do good and yet fail because of sin, some don't even try. Again, free will in action.
     
  19. That is the same way to look at total depravity.. It does not mean a person is incapable of doing any good.. The person is incapable of glorifying Jesus.. That is total depravity.. The goodness of a person will be self driven than God driven.. That is what we are talking about.. Like you said, we have no righteousness of our own..
     
  20. Man are you ever right. We have kicked this around so much that it has dents on its bottom and top.

    Personally, I am amazed at how many people reject a Bible doctrine.
    Rom. 8:29-30 tells us....................
    “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

    Then Ephesians 1:5 & 11 say to us............
    “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”

    Have you over the years noticed how many come across with a real hostility toward the doctrine of predestination. It doesn't really matter if we reject it or hate or get angry about it, predestination is still a biblical doctrine. Maybe the problem is that they do not understand what predestination means according to the Bible.

    The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures are from the Greek word proorizo. That word means to ................
    “determine beforehand,” or “to decide upon ahead of time.” So, Bible predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time.

    What would that be then????

    According to Rom. 8:29-30 the Lord predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. It seems to me that might just be where the problem rests.

    This is not a new doctrine but in fact has been around for a couple of thousand of years. There are many, many Scriptures that tell us that believers in Christ are chosen............Matt. 24:22, Mark 13:20, Romans 8:29-33, Ephesians 1:11, Co. 3:12, 1 Thess. 1:4 just to name a few. Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

    Having said that does it seem to you that the biggest problem with this is that it is unfair????
    Why some and not others? But then we must remember is that no one deserves to be saved. We have all sinned according to Rom. 3:23 and are all deserve hell as seen in Rom. 6:23. As a result, God would be perfectly just in allowing all of us to spend eternity in hell. However, God chooses to save some of us. That means He is not being unfair to those who are not chosen, because they are getting what they deserve. God’s choosing to be gracious to some is not unfair to the others. None of us deserves anything from God; therefore, no one can object if he does not receive anything from God.
    An illustration would be a man randomly handing out money to five people in a crowd of twenty. Would the fifteen people who did not receive money be upset? Probably so. Do they have a right to be upset? No, they do not. Why? Because the man did not owe anyone money. He simply decided to be gracious to some.

    If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to chose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice—all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (John 3:16 & Rom. 10:9-10). What then does the Bible say about God rejecting anyone who believes in Him.

    Deut. 4:29......
    "But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God thou shalt FIND Him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul".

    God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true.

    Maybe we need to remember Rom. 11:33.............
    “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!”


    Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/predestination.html#ixzz2ycBru7nq
     
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