Destiny Or Free Will?

I would love to agree with you, Mitspa but I surrender my will to God daily and still I make wrong choices. I would love to be that robot that everyone talks about but unlike the plants and animals, whom I envy, I still am not perfect. Call it what you will, non free will or choices, we still have them to make even under the best intentions and strive as we might to understand scripture.
Well then you should know that "your" will...is not the object of obedience? And again please do not try to put words into my mouth, I have not suggested a "robot" I have suggested that surrender of ones own will is the obedience of the Cross of Christ. The term "free-will" is not biblical, nor does it represent the obedience we are called to.
 
I didn't think I was putting words in your mouth. I do know that my will is not always God's will but "my will" is still operational. Everyone seems to say God does not want robots - but I would gladly be a robot to God. He does not take the "me of me" away in my surrender, He makes me more "His Way".
 
I didn't think I was putting words in your mouth. I do know that my will is not always God's will but "my will" is still operational. Everyone seems to say God does not want robots - but I would gladly be a robot to God. He does not take the "me of me" away in my surrender, He makes me more "His Way".
Then you understand that this obedience we are called to..is not a boasting or confidence in our own will..but a continued process of surrender to Gods Will. :)
 
Yes, I do understand what you are saying. Do you understand what I am saying? Christians still make choices - not always good ones. I understand that we try to make justification for our choices but I cannot disconnect from (wrong or right) that they are my choices. That is free will.
 
Yes, I do understand what you are saying. Do you understand what I am saying? Christians still make choices - not always good ones. I understand that we try to make justification for our choices but I cannot disconnect from (wrong or right) that they are my choices. That is free will.
Like I said "free-will" describes disobedience ..not obedience ....obedience is in the surrender of our will unto Gods will. This seems very simple and clear to me? When I disobey its called "free-will" when I obey its called surrendered will :)
 
I do know and I surrender gladly. But I think, God is most proud, when we agree together. I, dunno, but God's will, it seems to me is always what is best for us. We don't seem to always know this truth but God's love always includes us, all of us.
 
I think both can be right.
God does not have 1 plan, but many for our lives.
There is the ultimate plan, where you are now, to where God called you to be. Many ways lead to Rome.
Most of the time, we choose.
Sin makes us deviate from that path.
Redemption reconnects us to it.
Sometimes God chooses for us. In those situations we don't have much of a choice.
But most of the time God always gives us a choice, even if it's a sly or ridiculous one.
Like, we're drowning, and have the option to either swim upwards, towards a solid object, or let go and die.
Not even God will force your decision there. He will try to convince you to live on, but ultimately it will be your choice.
If God called you to bring a certain person to salvation, but you choose to let go and die, that thread of life, that path will cross with the next best solution. The man shall be saved, through you, or another person.

So, predestined or free will?
Both!
But there is not one predestination, but as many as there are possible outcomes. An infinite amount.
There are outcomes and futurez that are better than others. And if we walk in the path of God, and seek His will, and work our way towards the highest goal, then we can be sure that we will be most blessed.
If God does something, He does it perfectly. So aim to choose the most perfect choice you can make, at all times.

For me this endless debate has ended. This is the answer the Father gave me, and it satisfies me.
I hope it has blessed you as well.
 
Moose is using post salvation scriptures to prove free will. That's irrelevant context.

We are limited by the sin nature to only choose to reject God but once we are born of again we can and do exercise our will to become bond slaves to Christ.

That is not the same as when we were unbelievers and did not have free will to believe the Gospel.

That will was turned on in us thru God's foreknowledge and pre planning. He enabled us to believe (by grace) then we believed (thru faith).

Brothers...do not argue this age old war started by Calvin's misunderstanding of Augustine...thats what this is you know...

The essential difference is this...

one group says (like you intojoy) only after regeneration (being born from above) can we begin to believe (the basic reformed view)

one group says we must believe first and it is all our choosing...(a more Pelegian view)

and the other group (classic apostolic Christianity taught to the first generations) says once God initiates, a choosing takes place, and then God saves or condemns (though God foreknows them that will be saved...it is important that love and obedience be genuine not contrived or compelled)

So I would like to discuss with the idea that we must be born again (already regenerated) in order to believe as I do not think this is Biblical...only I must go to the Dentist and will return later

Big Mooses point in post 80 makes this position clear...God initiates (which is totally by grace, He owes no man anything) but now man is required to respond though each is actually capable of making either initial response....thus man is certainly depraved but not Totally as in absolutely incapable...

brother Paul
 
I do know and I surrender gladly. But I think, God is most proud, when we agree together. I, dunno, but God's will, it seems to me is always what is best for us. We don't seem to always know this truth but God's love always includes us, all of us.
I think the term was made to defeat Calvinist doctrine, but the term itself is just an awful way to describe our faith, that demands we sincerely attempt to die to our own will..
 
I think both can be right.
God does not have 1 plan, but many for our lives.
There is the ultimate plan, where you are now, to where God called you to be. Many ways lead to Rome.
Most of the time, we choose.
Sin makes us deviate from that path.
Redemption reconnects us to it.
Sometimes God chooses for us. In those situations we don't have much of a choice.
But most of the time God always gives us a choice, even if it's a sly or ridiculous one.
Like, we're drowning, and have the option to either swim upwards, towards a solid object, or let go and die.
Not even God will force your decision there. He will try to convince you to live on, but ultimately it will be your choice.
If God called you to bring a certain person to salvation, but you choose to let go and die, that thread of life, that path will cross with the next best solution. The man shall be saved, through you, or another person.

So, predestined or free will?
Both!
But there is not one predestination, but as many as there are possible outcomes. An infinite amount.
There are outcomes and futurez that are better than others. And if we walk in the path of God, and seek His will, and work our way towards the highest goal, then we can be sure that we will be most blessed.
If God does something, He does it perfectly. So aim to choose the most perfect choice you can make, at all times.

For me this endless debate has ended. This is the answer the Father gave me, and it satisfies me.
I hope it has blessed you as well.
I will say this..at least the term predestination is a biblical one, now what some think the term to mean is where the debate really is? The term Free-will is not a biblical term nor does it describe the obedience we are called to in the Will of God.
 
I understand this term (free-will) was and is used to defeat certain aspects of Calvinist doctrine...ok.. But the term itself is not a biblical term that represents true obedience. Trying to defeat an error by building another error, is not how we defend the truth.

By the way, good morning Bro. Major:)

And the same back at you Mitspa!

I hope you had a good day Sunday!

We had one baptized and then 2 more souls saved during the worship hour! God has been wonderful to us!
 
And the same back at you Mitspa!

I hope you had a good day Sunday!

We had one baptized and then 2 more souls saved during the worship hour! God has been wonderful to us!
Good one Major! While we keep debating, sneak in and save a couple.. Love it!! :D
 
And the same back at you Mitspa!

I hope you had a good day Sunday!

We had one baptized and then 2 more souls saved during the worship hour! God has been wonderful to us!
Amen and thank you Lord!

Ok...then lets consider that these people was walking in their own will...and God convicted them that they where in sin (contrary to His Will) They confessed with their tongue and bowed their knee to His Will. This my brothers is not "free-will" it is "surrendered" will, that saves us all...:) So does the principle of receiving Gods grace change now that we are "saved"?...no it continues in that God gives grace to the humble and obedience is a continued process of surrender of ones own will, that the Spirit of God might work Gods Will in us. Fear and trembling is that place where we have no confidence in our own strength or our own ability or will.

read these scriptures carefully and one can see that our salvation is a continued surrender, just as it was when we first humbled our self and came OUT of our own will.

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure
 
I know some may think I am beating this issue up? But its very important to understand that we did not choose God, but God chooses to have mercy on us, and He works a great work of His Spirit to bring us into the place where we can see our weaknesses and our need for His grace. That we are saved not by our own will but because of His Will and His love...if someone gets that backwards there whole understanding of the gospel will be wrong and they will not be able to understand the grace of God. Now our will is effectual in salvation, but its a matter of surrender that brings us into Gods Will and grace.
 
Let’s look at the process from what Major once called “first reference” in the story of Cain and Abel, God speaks to Cain (I believe audibly)…He does not curse him but rather in His grace makes an offer to Cain…He tells him truly, “If you go and do it right, will it also not go well with you?” Here is God’s sure word. God is not a man that He should lie. IF Cain believed God and did it right it WOULD HAVE gone well with him. Now God does not leave this open ended without His loving warning that if Cain does not then sin lays at the door waiting to rule over him.

Now we know God is omniscient and foreknows exactly what Cain will do, but the word came (by grace), Cain heard the word but did not trust it (or rejected it) and so we know the rest of the story. It was not impossible for Cain to have made the other choice or else God was insincere. He would then not have been true to His word, as if here is promise He knows Cain is incapable of thus the offer was moot…meaningless…a false hope.

We see this same scenario again with Abraham when God commands him to offer up his son, his only legitimate heir…after Abraham hears God’s word, he believes God, does not reject His promise (that through Isaac the seed promise shall be fulfilled) but fully intends to slay the boy if God so willed…then God says something very interesting…He says “because you have done this and not withheld your only son I will…”! God initiates, Abraham responds freely (surrenders His will to God’s), and having submitted Abraham makes the right choice (required by God) and God blesses (and keeps His word).

This is what Paul is saying when he says “After you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation…you trusted”…and then they were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (not first). So how can they believe if they have not heard, and how can they hear unless someone tells them…

So the word “free” will is not in the Bible but man exercising his own will either to receive or reject is present…so it is that “Total” depravity (as in absolute incapability) is also NOT in the Bible though we are certainly possess a depraved nature and if left to ourselves, had we never had the prompting from God's word) we will all sin.

So this presentation is NOT to set up an anticipated response with the Potter and the clay or other such scriptures which are also the truth, but just to show that the will of man is not always only evil…and that God requires of us the appropriate response...

YHVH says through Ezekiel…(Ez. 18) “The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father and neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him, but if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.” Even the wicked, when they hear the word of truth, can make that initial effort (it does not save, but man, having been given dominion shows conviction and humility before God and God then follows up with His blessing based on His sure word of promise)

In His love

Brother Paul
 
Amen and thank you Lord!

Ok...then lets consider that these people was walking in their own will...and God convicted them that they where in sin (contrary to His Will) They confessed with their tongue and bowed their knee to His Will. This my brothers is not "free-will" it is "surrendered" will, that saves us all...:) So does the principle of receiving Gods grace change now that we are "saved"?...no it continues in that God gives grace to the humble and obedience is a continued process of surrender of ones own will, that the Spirit of God might work Gods Will in us. Fear and trembling is that place where we have no confidence in our own strength or our own ability or will.

read these scriptures carefully and one can see that our salvation is a continued surrender, just as it was when we first humbled our self and came OUT of our own will.

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

Seems to me that this is all about "words". We are saying the same thing just calling it by a different name.

They confessed, they gave the credit to God and asked for Christ to forgive them of their sin. If we choose to call that "surrendered will", I have no problem at all with that name.

IF it means saying the name is ......"Jump to Cuba", to get one saved.....I'm in!
 
I know some may think I am beating this issue up? But its very important to understand that we did not choose God, but God chooses to have mercy on us, and He works a great work of His Spirit to bring us into the place where we can see our weaknesses and our need for His grace. That we are saved not by our own will but because of His Will and His love...if someone gets that backwards there whole understanding of the gospel will be wrong and they will not be able to understand the grace of God. Now our will is effectual in salvation, but its a matter of surrender that brings us into Gods Will and grace.

You are very correct an I am in agreement with you. Most call what you are saying "Predestination". Some call it "Election". You are calling it "Surrendered will".
I like them all and am just glad that God included me in His will!

Rom. 8:29, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;

Rom. 8:30, "and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

The word "election," or "elect," comes from the Greek word eklectos and occurs about 25 times in the New Testament. It signifies "to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self, a choosing one out of many." The one who does the choosing, the electing, is God.

John 13:18, "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ˜He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me."

Eph. 1:4,"He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him."

1 Tim. 5:21, "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality."
 
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