Auschwitz: God On Trial

Dirtyrottensinner said:
@ Major-I think it is a matter of comprehending individual perspectives. Posting on a forum degrades the intent and fluidity of the message. I don't think anyone is arguing that Christ was 'born of the Jews'/ Hebrew bloodline. I think the main argument comes from a 'religious' perspective; so one has to consider this question: was Christ "religious"?

My answer to this question would be this: NO-not in human standards and comprehension. Christ is the example of "pure" religion in worship to the Living God. Which we cannot comprehend as we are in a fallen world-human sin nature. So to say Christ was a practicing "Jew" would be false.

Does that make more sense?
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Was Jesus religious???? Good question.

What did He set up and begin.????

Ephesians 5:23
"For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church and the savior of the body."

Matthew 16:16
"And Simon Peter answered and said, thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God.
17) Jesus said, and I say also unto thee, thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail".

That does not mean a certain denomination but it does mean a called out people or assembly of believers.
I think that points to some kind of religious activity or worship responce.

What say ye?
 
Major said:
I agree Glo but in the end we are all judged by what we do not by what others do to us or think of us. IMO, the love we speak of comes from the fact Jesus was a Jew.
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Yes. I think it is a sign of respect for God to respect Jews, even if they don't us. They did and do suffer for being the chosen race. It is like a parent who gave birth to us in a sense. Or is that picture a tad too extreme? :)
 
KingJ said:
Yes. I think it is a sign of respect for God to respect Jews, even if they don't us. They did and do suffer for being the chosen race. It is like a parent who gave birth to us in a sense. Or is that picture a tad too extreme? :)
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Seems perfectly logical to me.

Here is something else to think about.

Jesus had to be a Jew because the Messiah had to be born a human. He was born of Mary and Josheph, Jews, through the line of Abraham, David and Issac.

Now, and I am just asking, not stateing anything............could all(or at least some) the problems that have happened to the Jews be attributed to Satan trying to stop the birth of Jesus through the human pysical line of Abraham?

Just think about all the times that Abraham was in jepordy, and Issac, and Joseph. David there standing to face Goliath.
How many times was the destruction of the line of birth in danger?????

How many babies did Pharoh kill and the same with Herod after the birth of Messiah Jesus. Wasn't it Satan behind every single death?

When I consider that, it really seems to help my understanding of why the Jews went through much and given that, they have my respect for their action.

Think also of the records they kept over the years. Would we have the written Word of God today if it was not for the meticulouse records that they kept.

Do we believe that God in His wisdom knew that the Jews were keep records so well??

I does! But that is just me!
 
Rusty said:
The only really valuable point in that article to me is:

I have many first hand stories from Germans and Czechs and Poles on how the churches did nothing, some even helping the Nazis...These old Christians were very clear in their explanations to me.​
I cannot agree with his 1948 prophecy concepts or the idea he seems to be suggesting that the torture and murder of millions was the price for a political-based, secular nation labeled Israel....There were even more non-Jews in concentration camps who died....​
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This reminds me of when my friend attempted to argue with me about the fallacies of Christianity when he pointed out that that the bible states the earth is flat, when it has always been round. When I asked him where in the bible it said that, he told me it was taught in the church. I, not so kindly, pointed out to him that nothing that the church says matter. Not today, and not in the past (I know this may strike a cord with some of you), but what is taught in the Word and the Word alone. Yes, we should attend church and yes we should listen to our pastors, priests...whatever your choice is. However, if they are teaching against the bible, you find another congregation. If they interpret a scripture a little differently, but it doesn't go against the Word, well fine.

The point is, Christianity is not what a pastor says. It is about the Word and accepting Jesus as our savior. Too many pastors have done or said things and people who don't study the bible assume it's what the bible says. Not the case.

Anyhow, my point is, we should not think that those in the church are a direct avenue to God or that they represent him---in all cases---. Yes, in some or many cases, but not all. We are still human in the end. We are Gods child, but we still sin.
 
Rusty said:
Well...I'm just hoping some folks will give me a reasonable answer as to how God would allow the Holocaust if this theory of 1948 and a secular Jewish homeland is a prophecy...
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Rusty, I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Major on this one. I was going to respond to this last night, but was too tired and fell asleep.

Asking why God allowed for the Holocaust is like an unbeliever asking why God created sin or a Christian asking, even worse. God has a plan for all of us and humankind. When we questions His ways....well it's saying that he is imperfect and is lying to us.

Last night in my car, I was pondering why I question my salvation sometimes. I realized it's because I don't truly believe Him sometimes. I haven't thought He loves me in the past. Well, if I doubt His love, it is equivalent to stating He is a complete liar, because this goes against the entire bible. It goes against God and everything He says He is. If he does not love or have a plan for us, then why are we Christians? Why do we spread the Word if we ourselves doubt Him and don't believe?

Asking and doubting one part of God means we doubt all parts of Him because he is absolutely perfect and just.
 
Major said:
Was Jesus religious???? Good question.

What did He set up and begin.????

Ephesians 5:23
"For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church and the savior of the body."

Matthew 16:16
"And Simon Peter answered and said, thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God.
17) Jesus said, and I say also unto thee, thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail".

That does not mean a certain denomination but it does mean a called out people or assembly of believers.
I think that points to some kind of religious activity or worship responce.

What say ye?
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Okay- I am not explaining myself correctly I guess: Christ -Christ's Law- is the pure example of the expectations of us from God; which if you want to call God's plan for his people (AKA: the Body of Christ, AKA: the Church) a "religion" then what we Christians call "Christianity" is the closest thing we have to God's plan available. So anything other than "Christianity" is "Anti-Christ": Correct?

So if we keep running around saying "Jesus is a Jew", and then tell people they need to be a "Christian" and if they are from another "religion"; how in the world are we going to reach them?

Christ's whole ministry to the people was about breaking down barriers that the "Jews" set up to hinder the message of salvation. My point is this: we need to remove the labels of religion for soul-winning.

Do we say "The 'Jew' Jesus Christ died on the cross to absolve your sins from God"; or do we say "The 'Son of God' died on the cross to pay your sin debt"?

Did Christ set-up "religion" for us to follow God's Law-well I would say yes to that. Did Christ set-up Judaism in the form as it was while He was on Earth or in its current state-NO; mankind made a good ole mess out of the Law of the Lord. So it goes back to "where does our morality come from?" Obviously anything 'good' comes from God. Bad religion comes from mankind.

Now I forget where I was going with this....
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
Rusty, I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Major on this one. I was going to respond to this last night, but was too tired and fell asleep.

Asking why God allowed for the Holocaust is like an unbeliever asking why God created sin or a Christian asking, even worse. God has a plan for all of us and humankind. When we questions His ways....well it's saying that he is imperfect and is lying to us.

Last night in my car, I was pondering why I question my salvation sometimes. I realized it's because I don't truly believe Him sometimes. I haven't thought He loves me in the past. Well, if I doubt His love, it is equivalent to stating He is a complete liar, because this goes against the entire bible. It goes against God and everything He says He is. If he does not love or have a plan for us, then why are we Christians? Why do we spread the Word if we ourselves doubt Him and don't believe?

Asking and doubting one part of God means we doubt all parts of Him because he is absolutely perfect and just.
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I don't think that Rusty is really looking for the ultimate definitive answer-that's not the point of his inquiry or statement....
 
Dirtyrottensinner said:
I thought we were Christians free from the imposing of the "Jew's" Laws?
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We are! We do not answer to the Law but the Law is still good and it is Gods standard. The problem is ........
we can not keep the Law, hence we need a Savior, Jesus the Christ.

Remamber it was not he Jews Law, it was the Law of God given to Moses.
 
Rusty said:
Yes...I would like to hear an answer from Christian Zionists why they think God allowed the slaughter of millions. Where is the prophecy of this? How can Christians justify God in this?
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Dirty; please see above. If I am still misinterpreting the question, please correct me, Rusty. Also, I just reread my post and it isn't at all intended to say you're an atheist. I hope it doesn't come across that way. I sincerely respect you and your beliefs as well as all others on here.
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
This reminds me of when my friend attempted to argue with me about the fallacies of Christianity when he pointed out that that the bible states the earth is flat, when it has always been round. When I asked him where in the bible it said that, he told me it was taught in the church. I, not so kindly, pointed out to him that nothing that the church says matter. Not today, and not in the past (I know this may strike a cord with some of you), but what is taught in the Word and the Word alone. Yes, we should attend church and yes we should listen to our pastors, priests...whatever your choice is. However, if they are teaching against the bible, you find another congregation. If they interpret a scripture a little differently, but it doesn't go against the Word, well fine.

The point is, Christianity is not what a pastor says. It is about the Word and accepting Jesus as our savior. Too many pastors have done or said things and people who don't study the bible assume it's what the bible says. Not the case.

Anyhow, my point is, we should not think that those in the church are a direct avenue to God or that they represent him---in all cases---. Yes, in some or many cases, but not all. We are still human in the end. We are Gods child, but we still sin.
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You are absolutly correct. It is always what the Word of God says, not a man whether he be a pastor, or not.
 
Dirtyrottensinner said:
I don't think that Rusty is really looking for the ultimate definitive answer-that's not the point of his inquiry or statement....
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Then pray tell what was the reason for the question my brother?

Please read comment #147 again.

Please understand that we do and need not justify what God has done. He is God and He has a plan and I do not think He has or will ask any of us what we think about what He is doing.

See, I told you this would happen. This is always what happens when we begin to spiritualize or symbolize the Word of God instead of simply reading it and understanding it just as it is printed.
 
Major said:
Its OK, I think I am knowing your heart and that is what is important.
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Maybe I look at the Bible too much as a whole? What is the point of the Bible?

I am pretty sure that it has something to do with our separation from God since the creation-our need for a Savior- and God providing the remedy for our sin through HIS mercy and grace. Other than His law/commandments/judgements/sacrifice-no "religion" on Earth can save a soul from an eternal Hell.

If my accepting the title "Christian" identifies me as a follower of the Son of God-Jesus Christ (in English); then I will gladly accept the title. I would much rather be:

'A Child of God'
'Prince of Heaven'
'Ambassador of Christ'

We didn't go off on any tangents on this thread did we?
 
Major said:
Then pray tell what was the reason for the question my brother?
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Maybe he just wants to argue? Or maybe get back on topic? Or maybe see if there is a viable Biblical answer that can be debated? Or maybe he seeking clarification on the 1948 thing.....

I don't know-we'll have to wait and see how he responds...:D
 
Dirtyrottensinner said:
Maybe he just wants to argue? Or maybe get back on topic? Or maybe see if there is a viable Biblical answer that can be debated? Or maybe he seeking clarification on the 1948 thing.....

I don't know-we'll have to wait and see how he responds...:D
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Now we are getting somewhere!

The trouble is Dirty, I do not want to argue with anyone.

My focus is just to talk and comunicate in a Christian tone and attitude.

As for 1948..........who knows????

Many people and not just Christian Zionists believe that is the point where prophecy comes to a head. We are quick to blame Darby and Lindsey and many others but IF, Dr's. Ironside, and Gill, and Henry, and Scofield had lived to see 1948, what do you think they would have written in their commentaries?????

Personally.......I do not know!

I do know Jesus speaks of a time when the vine will be planted and in the Land and it shall bear fruit.
Israel was placed into the Land on May 14, 1948. Is that the time He meant?????? I do not know.

What does it seem to you is what matters I think.


She as a nation after many wars she should have lost.......is still there.
 
Dirtyrottensinner said:
Maybe I look at the Bible too much as a whole? What is the point of the Bible?

I am pretty sure that it has something to do with our separation from God since the creation-our need for a Savior- and God providing the remedy for our sin through HIS mercy and grace. Other than His law/commandments/judgements/sacrifice-no "religion" on Earth can save a soul from an eternal Hell.

If my accepting the title "Christian" identifies me as a follower of the Son of God-Jesus Christ (in English); then I will gladly accept the title. I would much rather be:

'A Child of God'
'Prince of Heaven'
'Ambassador of Christ'

We didn't go off on any tangents on this thread did we?
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You have my total agreement Dirty man.

I believe the Bible is the instrument through which God has told His story and explained how sinful man can have access to a holy God.

I am glad that we can admitt that we have that acces through Christ because when all is said and done, that is the only thing that matters!!!!!
 
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