Tithing Is Not A New Testament Principle

Major said:
And that is exactly what I said in comment #43!!!!
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Okay, I reread that comment, and I can can see how you're advocating similar ideas. It was probably the use of the "10%" at the beginning of that comment and the use of the specific concept of "tithing" (i.e., as opposed to the concept of generous giving) that would have thrown me there.

So just to be clear, you don't advocate the specific teaching of a 10% minimum tithe to your church organisation as a Biblical requirement?
 
@Major said, "The principle of tithing is relevant for today."

What principle?

The first tithe (priesthood tithe) - Leviticus 27:30-33/Numbers 18 - what is the principle for that tithe? I see absolutely NO principle. God gave the eleven tribes of Israel the promised land as their inheritance, and commanded them to give the 12th tribe His tithe as their inheritance. The tithe came from GOD'S INCREASE of crops and animals that HE RESERVED FOR HIMSELF when He gave them the land. The farmers were NOT "giving back" to God anything. They merely TRANSPORTED what belonged to God to where God told them to take it. Those receiving the tithe, the Levites, got it AS THEIR INHERITANCE. They only worked at the Temple TWO WEEKS PER YEAR on a rotational basis, not full time. The priests only worked at the Temple TWO WEEKS PER YEAR on a rotational basis, not full time.

Now, what is the principle? Did your pastor just make up some principle in order to scam the congregation out of their money? READ YOUR BIBLE instead of believing everything the pastor says. THERE IS NO TITHING PRINCIPLE other than for the third tithe which was given to the poor. That's the ONLY tithing principle in the scriptures - FEED THE POOR.

Church goers seem to be the most gullible people I know. And some pastors are about the most dishonest people I have ever known. But then, some honest pastors aren't qualified to be preaching if they are teaching that Christians are supposed to be tithing today. VERY SAD. You put your trust in your pastor INSTEAD OF putting your trust IN THE SCRIPTURES.
 
Our Pastor uses the 10% as a goal; but is not a doctrinal requirement of the Church (A minimal goal).

That being sad, if a person can give .001% that is acceptably too.

Or, if a person can't give money at all, they give time in prayer, or labor, or visitation. That works too.

The whole point is that we are a Church that GIVES to serve our fellow man. Christ gave His life, we can't afford to 'give up' some of our earthly things that will vanish away in trade for the heavenly?

So "giving" is not only an OT principle-it is a NT principle and quite frankly the entirety of the Bible. If we aren't "giving" we aren't Christian. If people don't want to get their hands dirty in the fields-let them tithe to those who will-at least then those who are willing to accomplish the true work of God are not struggling to maintain both a job and/ or family and Pastoral duties.

Enable the field workers-support them; and reap the blessings as well. When we look at 'tithing' from human perspective-we get it all backwards (or any subject for that matter). If it wasn't for God-we wouldn't have ANYTHING to give because there would be no light or life.

Giving in whatever form-is a Christ like attribute. Let's be like Him shall we? If you don't like giving-you must not like blessings either.
 
Brother_Mike_V said:
Our Pastor uses the 10% as a goal; but is not a doctrinal requirement of the Church (A minimal goal).

Giving in whatever form-is a Christ like attribute. Let's be like Him shall we? If you don't like giving-you must not like blessings either.
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Your pastor is so wrong in using 10% as a goal. That is not Biblical and 100% man-made.

Pastors have it backwards. They concentrate on the giving aspect; i.e. 10%. Why not concentrate on the other 90%? Better yet, why not concentrate on 100%. We are called to be stewards of 100% of what God gives to us. Unfortunately, few pastors are qualified to teach good financial stewardship, so they resort to teaching tithing or a 10% goal out of their ignorance.

I teach good financial stewardship on 100% of one's income. When stewardship is taught correctly, people learn to be more conscious of their spending habits. Once you develop good spending habits, you find you have much more left to give. The goal is to be smart with what you have. NOT percentage goals. One needs to be Spirit led in all they do.

Being Spirit led, I find myself giving 30% and more of my income each and every month. I wouldn't even know what the percentage is except that many say I must be stingy because I teach against tithing, so I actually went back into my records and computed the percent.

The stingy one is the one who gives 10% but could give much more. On the other hand, some who give 1% are being very generous with what they have. One size doesn't fit all. That's why using a 10% goal is totally wrong and goes against NT teaching.

There are pastors who teach all this correctly. Mega Church pastor John MacArthur teaches there is no place for tithing in the Christian Church. J. Vernon McGee taught the same thing. There are many others that teach it correctly. Unfortunately, the majority of pastors are totally ignorant in this area of the scriptures.
 
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Most church goers think their pastor is a knowledgeable and honest person. I know I did. I thought my pastor was the most honest man I had ever known. And, he has his Ph.D. in theology, so I trusted his teachings.

UNTIL................. After my study of the tithe, I asked for a meeting with him. He admitted to me, privately, that he knew I was correct, that tithing did end at the cross, BUT he said he HAD to teach that tithing was still required. Otherwise, he said, people wouldn't give enough money to keep the church doors open. HE ADMITTED TO ME THAT HE WAS A LIAR. Being that I am now a Money & Finance Minister, and have met with many pastors, I can tell you there are MANY who know they stand in front of their congregation and just flat out lie. Not all of them - many teach tithing because it was taught to them, and they are just repeating what they were taught and they have never really studied the topic in depth. But many, AFTER meeting with me and then doing their own research, have stopped teaching the man-made doctrine of tithing from income.
 
GaryArnold said:
Your pastor is so wrong in using 10% as a goal. That is not Biblical and 100% man-made.

Pastors have it backwards. They concentrate on the giving aspect; i.e. 10%. Why not concentrate on the other 90%? Better yet, why not concentrate on 100%. We are called to be stewards of 100% of what God gives to us. Unfortunately, few pastors are qualified to teach good financial stewardship, so they resort to teaching tithing or a 10% goal out of their ignorance.

I teach good financial stewardship on 100% of one's income. When stewardship is taught correctly, people learn to be more conscious of their spending habits. Once you develop good spending habits, you find you have much more left to give. The goal is to be smart with what you have. NOT percentage goals. One needs to be Spirit led in all they do.

Being Spirit led, I find myself giving 30% and more of my income each and every month. I wouldn't even know what the percentage is except that many say I must be stingy because I teach against tithing, so I actually went back into my records and computed the percent.

The stingy one is the one who gives 10% but could give much more. On the other hand, some who give 1% are being very generous with what they have. One size doesn't fit all. That's why using a 10% goal is totally wrong and goes against NT teaching.

There are pastors who teach all this correctly. Mega Church pastor John MacArthur teaches there is no place for tithing in the Christian Church. J. Vernon McGee taught the same thing. There are many others that teach it correctly. Unfortunately, the majority of pastors are totally ignorant in this area of the scriptures.
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Friend,

I am not sure that you grasped the entirety of my post. But since I may not have clarified the position of our Pastor enough, let me try again.


I said: "Our Pastor uses the 10% as a goal; but is not a doctrinal requirement of the Church (A minimal goal)."

In other words: as a "New Testament Church", Christians should be taught about giving to the "Church" as it was established in the OT Law-but that is purely to sustain the functions of 'Church Operations' much like the children of Israel. Our Church does not expect that every member or person that comes through the door is automatically going to shell out 10% of anything especially money.

I said: "That being said, if a person can give .001% that is acceptably too."

Those who are serious about God's work are encouraged to give all they can-even sacrificially-even if it is "two mites." Do any of us give 100% of anything to God? Let us be real-No we don't. Since WE ARE THE CHURCH-we are responsible for operating costs and the what not to get the work done and in faith we wait for God's blessings which he promises and we SEE them in our Church.

And I said: "Or, if a person can't give money at all, they give time in prayer, or labor, or visitation. That works too."

Can you please point to where I said our Pastor or our Church says 10% is a mandatory giving number in scripture as a NT Church?

I also said:
"The whole point is that we are a Church that GIVES to serve our fellow man. Christ gave His life, we can't afford to 'give up' some of our earthly things that will vanish away in trade for the heavenly?

So "giving" is not only an OT principle-it is a NT principle and quite frankly the entirety of the Bible. If we aren't "giving" we aren't Christian. If people don't want to get their hands dirty in the fields-let them tithe to those who will-at least then those who are willing to accomplish the true work of God are not struggling to maintain both a job and/ or family and Pastoral duties.

Enable the field workers-support them; and reap the blessings as well. When we look at 'tithing' from human perspective-we get it all backwards (or any subject for that matter). If it wasn't for God-we wouldn't have ANYTHING to give because there would be no light or life.

Giving in whatever form-is a Christ like attribute. Let's be like Him shall we? If you don't like giving-you must not like blessings either."

Would you not agree that using Christ as an example we are called to give it all? Does everyone in your church give all? Because if they do-they must all be missionary martyrs. My guess is, most people never get close to taking 10% out of their wallet or out of their time to give it over for the cause of Christ.

So in defense of my Pastor-I think we are probably a lot closer to 'doctrine' than many churches-that's why I go there...

God doesn't NEED our money-He needs our hearts right so He can use us. Sometimes the quickest way to a man's heart is through his wallet. God knows this.

So I agree with you, "tithing" simple is not enough-but it is a place to start.
 
I agree with giving to the "church." The "church" are the people, not an organization doing business as a church. There is nothing in the NT that deals with giving to an organization doing business as a church. All collections in the NT were for the saints, not for buildings, salaries, etc. When you give to an organization doing business as a church, you are, in effect, paying your dues for something that you benefit from.

True giving (gift) is where you get nothing in return. Unfortunately, organized religion has the people fooled into believing they are giving to God when they give to the organization. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I do agree that those who choose to attend "church services" have a moral obligation to help pay the bills. But that is what it is - paying the bills. You don't spread the gospel within four walls.

When tithing was in effect, people had to go through a priest who would then go to God. Christians, on the other hand, can go directly to God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Big difference. We don't need a priest or pastor or bishop, etc. to go to God. Under the OT times, God hadn't poured out His Holy Spirit. His Spirit lived in the Temple; thus, the Temple had to be taken care of. Now our bodies are the Temple where the Spirit dwells. No reason to tithe or give to keep up the Temple.

10% is not a goal, guideline, or anything else in the NT. Those type of goals need to be dropped. Why not teach Christians to seek His Spirit in their giving rather than come up with some phony goal?
 
Brother_Mike_V said:
So I agree with you, "tithing" simple is not enough-but it is a place to start.
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You obviously don't understand what I have said.

There is no tithing for Christians. It's not a place to start. It's not a place to end. It's not a goal to reach for. It doesn't exist. The word "tithe" should not even be used by a Christian except for referring to the OT tithes.

Since the Biblical tithe did not come from anyone's income, and wage earners did not tithe, why must people continue to take the tithe out of context and apply it today, where it doesn't belong? I'll tell you why. Greed and ignorance in organized religion. Most today don't realize that no Christian Church ever taught anyone to tithe from their income before the 1800s, most likely 1870 in the US.
 
Tainted Scrolls said:
th1bill

It's sad that you could not understand I was making a joke...Hints the face...with the tongue sticking out
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TS,
That is not sad, it is to be expected. On the other hand it is sad that a man approaching 69 needs to teach someone your age manors on common means of expression for folks your age. Unfortunately, it is even sadder that you would choose to bait me over such a trivial matter as my attempt to, lovingly, correct you.

Here's hoping that both of us can begin to act like adults that the 8 year old can look up to.
 
Roads said:
Okay, I reread that comment, and I can can see how you're advocating similar ideas. It was probably the use of the "10%" at the beginning of that comment and the use of the specific concept of "tithing" (i.e., as opposed to the concept of generous giving) that would have thrown me there.

So just to be clear, you don't advocate the specific teaching of a 10% minimum tithe to your church organisation as a Biblical requirement?
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Correct.
 
GaryArnold said:
@Major said, "The principle of tithing is relevant for today."

What principle?

The first tithe (priesthood tithe) - Leviticus 27:30-33/Numbers 18 - what is the principle for that tithe? I see absolutely NO principle. God gave the eleven tribes of Israel the promised land as their inheritance, and commanded them to give the 12th tribe His tithe as their inheritance. The tithe came from GOD'S INCREASE of crops and animals that HE RESERVED FOR HIMSELF when He gave them the land. The farmers were NOT "giving back" to God anything. They merely TRANSPORTED what belonged to God to where God told them to take it. Those receiving the tithe, the Levites, got it AS THEIR INHERITANCE. They only worked at the Temple TWO WEEKS PER YEAR on a rotational basis, not full time. The priests only worked at the Temple TWO WEEKS PER YEAR on a rotational basis, not full time.

Now, what is the principle? Did your pastor just make up some principle in order to scam the congregation out of their money? READ YOUR BIBLE instead of believing everything the pastor says. THERE IS NO TITHING PRINCIPLE other than for the third tithe which was given to the poor. That's the ONLY tithing principle in the scriptures - FEED THE POOR.

Church goers seem to be the most gullible people I know. And some pastors are about the most dishonest people I have ever known. But then, some honest pastors aren't qualified to be preaching if they are teaching that Christians are supposed to be tithing today. VERY SAD. You put your trust in your pastor INSTEAD OF putting your trust IN THE SCRIPTURES.
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Gary......I respect your opinion but just as the case with anyone who as an agenda, it seems that we all forget to talk about the Bible issues which do not support our agenda.

You say that there is no principle in Biblicle tithing. and your quote was....." I see absolutely NO principle."

If that is the case.......then why did Abraham give Melchizedek a tithe in Genesis 14:20? No food stuffs or grain were involved. It was the spoils from the war he had just finished.
Abraham gave him the "tithe of all". That indicates Melchizedek's superior priesthood since Levi was considered to be in the body (seminally) of Abraham when he paid tithes to Melchizedek. This was BEFORE the Law was given. So then.......
How did Abraham know about paying the tithe???? Obviously he had a revelation from God concerning this principe of giving the tithe. If that is not a "priciple" then what was it?????

Now on a more personal note, In reading your comments, you are obviousely having some problems or have had some problems with your church or its leaders at some time in the past. You use very condemning words such as.......
"Guillable. and Scam, along with Dishonest and Un-qualified. You spend a lot of words condemning and telling us to READ OUR BIBLES. But again, everyone with an agenda never makes comments or uses the Bible to support things that are contrary to their opinions.

You advise us to read our Bible and when I do I read this in Colossians 3:14......
"And above all these things put on love which is the bond of perfectness".

Do you think your accusations follow the directions given in Colossians?

Then in Titus 2:8..........
"Show.....sound speech that cannot be condemned, that he is of the contrary part may be ashamed having no evil thing to say of you".

Are you comforable with your words that are so condemning to others that read them????

As you said and I agree........READ YOUR BIBLE instead of listening to others all the time.
 
GaryArnold said:
You obviously don't understand what I have said.

There is no tithing for Christians. It's not a place to start. It's not a place to end. It's not a goal to reach for. It doesn't exist. The word "tithe" should not even be used by a Christian except for referring to the OT tithes.

Since the Biblical tithe did not come from anyone's income, and wage earners did not tithe, why must people continue to take the tithe out of context and apply it today, where it doesn't belong? I'll tell you why. Greed and ignorance in organized religion. Most today don't realize that no Christian Church ever taught anyone to tithe from their income before the 1800s, most likely 1870 in the US.
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Gary.........if as you say............."the Biblical tithe did not come from anyone's income, and wage earners did not tithe",

Please explain Genesis 14:20........
"And blessed be the most high God which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand, AND HE GAVE HIM (MELCHIZEDEK) TITHES OF ALL."

Heb. 7:4 says............
"Now consider how great this man was. unto even the patriach Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils".

Spoils were the goods, silver, jewels, etc. from the war fought.
 
GaryArnold said:
You obviously don't understand what I have said.

There is no tithing for Christians. It's not a place to start. It's not a place to end. It's not a goal to reach for. It doesn't exist. The word "tithe" should not even be used by a Christian except for referring to the OT tithes.

Since the Biblical tithe did not come from anyone's income, and wage earners did not tithe, why must people continue to take the tithe out of context and apply it today, where it doesn't belong? I'll tell you why. Greed and ignorance in organized religion. Most today don't realize that no Christian Church ever taught anyone to tithe from their income before the 1800s, most likely 1870 in the US.
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We understand what you said Gary..........we just do not agree with you.
 
Let’s look closely at Abram’s tithe. First, the goods that Abram gave the tenth from didn’t even belong to Abram:

Genesis 14:21 (KJV) - And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.

Notice in verse 21 the king of Sodom didn’t ask Abram if he would give back to him the people, but rather said GIVE ME the people and keep the goods for yourself. The way that is worded indicates that the king of Sodom was claiming that the people and the goods belonged to him, but he offered the goods to Abram.

It would normally have been the custom that the victor owns the spoils, but normally the spoils would have belonged to the enemy. In this case, Abram was RECOVERING goods belonging to the King of Sodom.

NOTE: The king of Sodom had an original right both to the persons and to the goods, and it would bear a debate whether Abram’s acquired right by rescue would supersede his title and extinguish it; but, to prevent all quarrels, the king of Sodom makes this fair proposal (v. 21).
--Should the Church Teach Tithing by Dr. Russell Earl Kelly, pages 24-25

Genesis 14:22-24 (KJV)
22And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
23That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
24Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

Notice in verses 23 and 24 Abram also acknowledges that the goods belonged to the king of Sodom. But the king of Sodam offered that Abram could keep the goods for himself. Abram declined the offer. He didn’t want man to take credit for his wealth. By not accepting any of the goods for himself, Abram was putting all his faith in God to provide for him rather than man.

Therefore, it is clear that both the king of Sodom and Abram acknowledged that the spoils of war did NOT belong to Abram, yet he gave a tenth of the spoils to King Melchizedek. This would seem that Abram did something wrong, if not even illegal, but Biblical historians agree that it was custom in Abram's day to give the king a tenth of the war spoils. Had Abram not given the tenth, he would have gone against custom.

Conclusion: Abram did NOT give a tenth of his income, or his wealth. Abram gave a tenth of the spoils of war that didn’t belong to him and declined to keep the goods offered to him. That is NOT an example of tithing for Christians to follow today. By declining to keep any of the goods for himself, Abram showed his faith that God would provide. That is the example of faith that Christians should be following. Furthermore, the law did NOT require a tenth of war spoils to be given, so to say that tithing was before the law and then in the law is not true. What Abram did was NOT even codified into the later law.
 
The Bible clearly shows that the tithe ENDED at the cross in the Book of Hebrews. The ONLY place in the Bible, after Calvary, that tithing appears is in Hebrews 7. In the first nine verses of Hebrews 7 the words tenth or tithes appears SEVEN TIMES.

Hebrews 7:5 (KJV) “And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:”

Verse 5 is the first occurrence of the words TITHES, COMMANDMENT and LAW.

Hebrews 7:12 (KJV) “For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”

Hebrews 7:18 (KJV) “For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.”

The word COMMANDMENT in verse 18 must be referring to the word COMMANDMENT in verse 5 which is referring to the tithe.

Therefore, the COMMANDMENT to TITHE was disannulled.
 
Are you aware that the tithe was paid to THE LEVITES, not the priests? The Levites were the ushers, singers, musicians, janitors, etc. - the servants of the priests. The Levites were then commanded to give a tenth of that tithe to the priests.

Are you aware that the priests and Levites only worked at the Temple about two weeks per year, on a rotational basis? NOT FULL TIME. The priests and Levites were divided into 24 "courses". See First Chronicles 24 for the priests and chapters 25 and 26 for the Levites. Each course only ministered in the Temple one week out of twenty four (1 in 24), and, depending on how many families were in each course, each family only ministered in the Temple two or three days during its courses’ week of ministry.

In the New Testament, the firstfruits belong to the farmer.
2 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) - The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.
2 Timothy 2:6 (NIV) - The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops.

In the Old Testament, you gave to God by taking the tithe to the Levites, taking firstfruits to the priests, and through burnt and other sacrificial giving.

In the New Testament, you give to God by giving to the needy/poor. See Matthew 25:42-45.

In the Old Testament, they had laws to follow. They had no Holy Spirit to lead them.

In the New Testament, born-again believers are given God's Holy Spirit. Those who are led by The Spirit need no laws. If they follow the Spirit's guidance, they will do God's will.

It makes no sense to try to bring forward an the Old Testament law of tithing when the New Testament teaches a better way.

When God gave the Israelites the promised land, He RESERVED, for Himself, a tenth of the crops and every tenth animal (Leviticus 27:30, 32). They NEVER did belong to the Israelites. In other words, the tithe was from God's increase of FOOD, not from man's income. It was a way to distribute FOOD to the Levites and priests who did NOT inherit any land.

No one, not even the farmers, tithed from their income.

The farmers made their income by SELLING and/or barter-exchanging their crops and animals but did NOT tithe on that income.

Today, ALL born-again believers are priests. ALL of us are called to be disciples of the Lord. No one of us is greater than another. Our bodies are the Temple where the Spirit dwells. According to the scriptures, priests do not tithe (Numbers 18).

When you understand the Biblical tithe, it makes sense, and it is plain to see that it makes NO sense to try to tithe today.
 
I have given scripture after scripture to show what the tithe was in the OT. There is no teaching of any tithe after Calvary. Paul didn't teach tithing or any tithing principle.

If you study the history of tithing in the Christian Church, as I have done, you will find that there is no record of any Christian Church teaching and collecting a money tithe before 1870, and even then, church leaders were looking for more ways to bring in more money and decided to start teaching tithing.

In some denominations, the teaching of tithing came about from meeting with the church leaders trying to find new ways to raise more funds. They tried different ways, and finally wound up voting to teach tithing as a way to increase funds. In one denomination, I found that when they voted for tithing, they said they had taken the Levitical tithe as a model, changed it to fit the needs of the denomination, and then asked the church members to accept their version of the tithe as though it was God's plan for the church. Now, that same denomination, teaches it as God's plan, not as though it were His plan. Very dishonest to say the least.

It might do some of you (who believe in tithing) some good to try and research tithing for your own denomination, if those records haven't been destroyed. You might be shocked to find out the truth about where your belief came from.

I was taught tithing the same as most of you. It wasn't until I was asked to teach a Sunday School Class in finances that I started an in-dept study of tithing and found that everything I had been taught in church, regarding the tithe (and first fruits) was incorrect. Now, my material is being used by many pastors and Bible Study instructors in the US, Canada, Australia, and East Africa that I know of. I get email often from pastors who have read my book and tell me how I opened their eyes and that they have totally changed their teaching of the tithe.
 
GaryArnold said:
In some denominations, the teaching of tithing came about from meeting with the church leaders trying to find new ways to raise more funds. They tried different ways, and finally wound up voting to teach tithing as a way to increase funds. In one denomination, I found that when they voted for tithing, they said they had taken the Levitical tithe as a model, changed it to fit the needs of the denomination, and then asked the church members to accept their version of the tithe as though it was God's plan for the church. Now, that same denomination, teaches it as God's plan, not as though it were His plan. Very dishonest to say the least.
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Yes, that is very dishonest. Another thing I've seen, and you're probably aware of this, is churches teaching that people will receive a curse if they don't tithe to that church. Creflo Dollar, for example, teaches this, and many needlessly give out of fear.

I'm just curious about your opinion on a hypothetical. For the church in the quotation I selected from your post, what if that church had gone to its congregation without any pretense. What if they'd just been straightforward, and said, look guys, this is what the Bible says about giving. These are the ways we're doing ministry, and we need money to support that ministry. Can we suggest that giving 10% of your income to your church's work might be reasonable?" We can probably argue that this approach may be misguided in that it may not be the one most efficient approach to giving (i.e., compared with teaching generosity coupled with sound financial management). But could we really go to those leaders and say what they're asking is wrong?
 
I believe the organized church should be honest and just present to the congregation what it costs to keep the organization going. Break that number down to the average cost per member. Then let the members know that some cannot afford to pay their fair share, so it is up to those who can afford to pay more than their fair share to help pay another members share. That's the payment part. From there, generous giving should be taught. Giving beyond what it costs to fund the organization would give funds for missions, outreach, etc. But we must not forget the poor/needy. That's where true giving should go.
 
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