Tithing Is Not A New Testament Principle

[Roads]

Jesus taught from this Bible, Paul taught from it, Peter taught from it as did every early believer. There is no such thing as a New Testament principle!

I don't quite follow how this is in reply to what Jack wrote... I don't think Jack is arguing that we shouldn't give generously, I think he's saying the same thing you are, that he would "never suggest an amount nor a percentage to anyone" based on his understanding of the Bible. There is no doubt that the Bible teaches generosity.

That all being said, it is interesting, and worth contemplating, that modern Jews in Israel and Orthodox Jews both follow different interpretations of the old testament tithing laws than the modern Christian church does, both differently interpreting the same Bible that Jesus, Peter and Paul taught from.

Also, I think TS was just being a little cheeky, not misunderstanding your post.

 

[Major]

I could live on 10% of my salary too if I owned JC Penny

As Bill said........you missed the point. Maybe that's why so few tithe their income today!

 

[Major]

I don't quite follow how this is in reply to what Jack wrote... I don't think Jack is arguing that we shouldn't give generously, I think he's saying the same thing you are, that he would "never suggest an amount nor a percentage to anyone" based on his understanding of the Bible. There is no doubt that the Bible teaches generosity.

That all being said, it is interesting, and worth contemplating, that modern Jews in Israel and Orthodox Jews both follow different interpretations of the old testament tithing laws than the modern Christian church does, both differently interpreting the same Bible that Jesus, Peter and Paul taught from.

Also, I think TS was just being a little cheeky, not misunderstanding your post.

To tithe is to give 10% of our income to God for His work. God provides for His people through His people. All that we have is a gift from God, therefore a tithe is a mere portion of what He has already given to us.

The clear message in the New Test. IMO is that we are not limited to the letter of the Law and we can give MORE than 10% or 20% or 30%. Mr. Penny felt like he should give 90% and live on what was left and when that was multiplied by God............
well you know the rest of the story.

But there is MORE to this than just writing a check to the church you attend. THINK, look deeper for truth.

The principle of tithing is relevant for today. You personally may not accept that However, just as can be seen in this thread, many people come up with excuses for not wanting to give back to God what He has given to us. They fret over the economy, job loss, higher taxes, and look for the worst in life. They even come up with believing that the tithe is not valid for New Test. believers, completely ignoreing the words of Jesus that He did not come to change the Law in any way.

These same people then allow their circumstances to prevent them from giving and then wonder and complain why their situation in life never gets any better. Isn't that exactly like the unfaithful people in the day of Malachi's day?

D.L. Moody once said........"Those that have nothing, never give nothing".

The choice to NOT tithe is actually the sin of idolatry my friends. It is when we do not tithe that the house of God becomes negelected. The pastors do not get paid and churches all over this land are closing which means there is no morality being preached through the pulpits of America. The pastors and priests who are left become lax and social sins begin to abound all around us. Don't believe me????????? Look around you today.

The jails are full. The mental wards are running over. Children are killing children though abortion. The person who attacks and rapes a woman is out of jail before his victim is out of the hospital. Pornography is on cable TV at all times of the day. Men are marrying other men and we sit around and act like there is nothing wrong with that action.

We have made our hobbies and the economic climate more important than returning a portion of what God in His graciousness and goodness has given to us, and then we sit back and argue and slice and dice whether or not we should tithe to God.

Folks..........We are getting back from God exactly what we have been giving to God----HEARTACHE.

Galatians....
"Whatsoever a man sows, that also shall he reap"!!!

 

[Brother_Mike_V]

The Joy of Tithing:

I Tithe because I believe it is the right thing to do-not because I have too. I tithe because my Pastor & Church believe it is the right thing to do. I tithe because I believe in supporting the Church and its ministries. I tithe because it is a testimony to where my heart truly lies. I give gifts and offerings above my tithe when I can because I can SEE where the tithes, gifts & offerings go. I give because I want to see souls saved especially children in hopes that they will not live a crumby lost life like I have.

Being and 'independent' Church is more advantageous when it comes seeing the productivity and accountability of the tithe. Everything is extremely transparent and the Pastor and Church workers have no where to hide money. We took up nearly $2500 to repair our passenger van. This is important so we can 'bring them in' to hear the Gospel. We are trying to get 4 bus routes going, we officially only have one. But the Lord is blessing us and we can see the work bearing fruit, we obey-God blesses (We were given a full size bus-FOR FREE! AMEN!). We had a young man get saved on Sunday and I hope he will bring his wife and children with him the next time. He did not grown up in church and his newborn is very ill. Pray for Kyle and his family-THIS is why I tithe.

I believe in the work of the local Church and I long to see people get saved-get to know God. When You tithe in large Church organization, often that money gets sucked into the vortex of the 'greater good' causes and you never SEE where your money goes. That makes people less likely to tithe.

I love our little Church. Our Pastor and Church family have been working diligently to rebuild the Church's reputation in our community. We are seeing new bus kids almost weekly, and seeing less of our old bus kids. Without the next generation learning and taking over spreading the Gospel and carrying on-it is all pointless.

It all takes money-vehicles need gas, utilities need to be paid, everything needs maintenance, fliers, signs, banners, gift Bibles, missions giving, special outreach events, all take money. Without the consistent tithing from our people; our Church would be defunct. WE are the Church; WE are responsible to God for funding it-end of story. Where does your heart lie? What treasures do you seek?

 

[th1bill]

I don't quite follow how this is in reply to what Jack wrote... I don't think Jack is arguing that we shouldn't give generously, I think he's saying the same thing you are, that he would "never suggest an amount nor a percentage to anyone" based on his understanding of the Bible. There is no doubt that the Bible teaches generosity.

That all being said, it is interesting, and worth contemplating, that modern Jews in Israel and Orthodox Jews both follow different interpretations of the old testament tithing laws than the modern Christian church does, both differently interpreting the same Bible that Jesus, Peter and Paul taught from.

Also, I think TS was just being a little cheeky, not misunderstanding your post.

Sorry roads but you have singled out one point from the issue and thus have missed what I said between the lines. I might be guilty of missing Jacks point also and if so, I apologise but what I saw, again, between the lines, was legalism and my pointed, admittedly, post was against such. Hope that helps all to see.

And if TS was being cheeky, on the web, that is dangerous without making some move to say so. There are 8 year olds that read these posts and that makes every one of us, like it or not, teachers and every Christian should know the danger of teaching erroneously.

 

[chili]

To tithe is to give 10% of our income to God for His work. God provides for His people through His people. All that we have is a gift from God, therefore a tithe is a mere portion of what He has already given to us.

The clear message in the New Test. IMO is that we are not limited to the letter of the Law and we can give MORE than 10% or 20% or 30%. Mr. Penny felt like he should give 90% and live on what was left and when that was multiplied by God............
well you know the rest of the story.

But there is MORE to this than just writing a check to the church you attend. THINK, look deeper for truth.

The principle of tithing is relevant for today. You personally may not accept that However, just as can be seen in this thread, many people come up with excuses for not wanting to give back to God what He has given to us. They fret over the economy, job loss, higher taxes, and look for the worst in life. They even come up with believing that the tithe is not valid for New Test. believers, completely ignoreing the words of Jesus that He did not come to change the Law in any way.

These same people then allow their circumstances to prevent them from giving and then wonder and complain why their situation in life never gets any better. Isn't that exactly like the unfaithful people in the day of Malachi's day?

D.L. Moody once said........"Those that have nothing, never give nothing".

The choice to NOT tithe is actually the sin of idolatry my friends. It is when we do not tithe that the house of God becomes negelected. The pastors do not get paid and churches all over this land are closing which means there is no morality being preached through the pulpits of America. The pastors and priests who are left become lax and social sins begin to abound all around us. Don't believe me????????? Look around you today.

The jails are full. The mental wards are running over. Children are killing children though abortion. The person who attacks and rapes a woman is out of jail before his victim is out of the hospital. Pornography is on cable TV at all times of the day. Men are marrying other men and we sit around and act like there is nothing wrong with that action.

We have made our hobbies and the economic climate more important than returning a portion of what God in His graciousness and goodness has given to us, and then we sit back and argue and slice and dice whether or not we should tithe to God.

Folks..........We are getting back from God exactly what we have been giving to God----HEARTACHE.

Galatians....
"Whatsoever a man sows, that also shall he reap"!!!

Well put Major. It is sad but true. WE did it all to our selves

 

[Roads]

Bother Mike: Your church sounds really beautiful. I wish I'd had the opportunity to attend that church instead of the "megachurch" I described in a previous post. And also like I said in a previous post, if that's the way you've decided to organise the mechanics of your church, then yes, it's logical and ethical that the church members provide to sustain the church in that form. If you have a vibrant, passionate church group where Christians are being discipled and people are being saved, then I praise God that His work is being done through your ministry there, and I celebrate with you that tithing is part of allowing that ministry to happen.

The way traditional churches are organised, yes, they probably do need some form of tithing to sustain themselves. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but it does make me uncomfortable if a "10% tithe" is taught as a scriptural requirement. I think it's better if it's taught as an argument from logic: i.e., "This is the way we've all decided that this church will be organised, these are the reasons why." I think it's great that your church leaders are transparent about their spending. Transparency removes temptation from leaders, and doubt from the congregation. I agree that it's much harder to maintain transparency in a large church.

There are a lot of other ways church groups organise that requires considerably less money to sustain their ministry, though, and I'm not going to argue that one way is better than another, except to say that I do think it's important to separate church tradition from what actually taught in the Bible so we can better understand why we do things we do. Some church groups will choose to keep traditions, others will change the way they organise themselves. Maybe a 10% tithe is necessary to support the ministry of some church groups. Others won't need it, and will still have a vibrant church with a strong ministry in their community. I feel, and have observed, that church groups without their own building and a "take church to the people" approach are becoming increasingly important in western nations. These churches still need resources, but only a fraction of what you've described in your post. Again, I'm not arguing that one model is better than another; you have to respond to the needs of your particular community, and be what you need to be for them -- be all things to all men.

Bill: I do put a lot of thoughtful consideration into understanding what people are saying before I reply, and I don't want to do anyone the disservice of being reductionist about what they've said. So you say I've "missed what you said between the lines." That could mean a lot of things. I'm confident that I have a good grasp of your perspective, but if you think I've missed something, I now give you this opportunity for you to state it plainly, so no one has to "read between the lines" and have you therefore run the risk of "teaching erroneously." Pretend I'm an 8-year old reading these posts What have I missed?

Major:

But there is MORE to this than just writing a check to the church you attend. THINK, look deeper for truth.

The principle of tithing is relevant for today. You personally may not accept that However, just as can be seen in this thread, many people come up with excuses for not wanting to give back to God what He has given to us.

Galatians....
"Whatsoever a man sows, that also shall he reap"!!!

I think the principle of giving back to God is relevant for today, for many of the reasons you describe, and for many other reasons as well. I don't, however, think a law of a 10% tithe given to your church should be taught in churches. Traditional and modern Jews in Israel and Orthodox Jews around the world don't tithe 10% of their monetary income to their churches, only churches in the tradition of Constantine (i.e., "western" churches) have interpreted the OT tithing laws that way. Just to be clear, the reason I'm saying that is to confirm that I agree that Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, but I also think that what exactly the "law" is, is not perfectly clear in all cases, and that a 10% tithe for all Christians everywhere is not necessarily an accurate interpretation of that law. And, also for purposes of clarity, I will restate that I think the principle of giving back to God is relevant for today. I am not in any way suggesting that because the 10% tithe is an inaccurate interpretation, people should be happy to keep all their money and give nothing to ministry.

If I were to read your previous post without any context, it may read to me that you're suggesting that tithing is the magic bullet that will cure society of all its ills. I'm sure you don't actually think that. We could all be tithing 10% or 50%, and still, perhaps still no ministry could be done at all, depending on how that tithe is being used, right? That's why more than a debate about simply whether we should or shouldn't tithe, I'm much more interested in discussing how churches are organised, how they're distinguishing church tradition from actual Biblical teaching, and how they're deciding as a church group about how to best work as the body of Christ to address the needs of their specific community, which may require a total restructuring away from traditional church models. Maybe all those disillusioned pastors you describe will be free from the need of having a pulpit to preach from at all, and still have a fulfilling and fruitful ministry? I'm sure you agree that the problems in modern western churches are much bigger and more complex than simply Christians not tithing 10% of their income.

I feel like we're all saying pretty much the same thing here which is: Christians need to step up and take on the responsibilities of ministry, because there's a world around us that needs Jesus. Amen?

 

[Roads]

Also as a general public service announcement, the symbol ( ":" and "p" on your keyboard) is indicative, in internet vernacular, of playfulness/cheekiness. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emoticons for reference. Bill, I think more 8 year olds than 40+ year olds would recognise the meaning of using this symbol Hope that helps give context for its use in the future.

 

[Brother_Mike_V]

Proverbs 3:
9 Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:
10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

Matthew 6:
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also

Do we look at 'tithe' as a mandatory obligation; or willingly-joyfully honoring and giving back to God what is His anyway?

If you are not comfortable about giving in your present church home; maybe there are other issues? I know our church could use all the 'moola' we could get; I wouldn't mind getting another bus on the road or having to build another building because we are overflowing with people in the pews and Sunday school....
Give to the Lord's work as you see fit-if for no other reason that the Lord promises to take care of us either here or the here after:

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

 

[Roads]

Proverbs 3:
If you are not comfortable about giving in your present church home; maybe there are other issues? I know our church could use all the 'moola' we could get; I wouldn't mind getting another bus on the road or having to build another building because we are overflowing with people in the pews and Sunday school....

Were you replying to me Mike? It's a bit hard to tell who you're responding to. I give to my church's ministry, and am happy to do so. I don't think I've said anywhere that we shouldn't give to support ministry, and I certainly don't think that. I think, from what you've been posting, that you'd probably have a problem with it if you found out a that a church was teaching a 10% tithe as a mandatory obligation; that's more the sort of thing I'm responding to, like the church I described where they were requiring members to show their bank statements to prove they were giving 10%.

I guess to summarise, I was trying to suggest that some church groups operate with vibrant and fruitful ministries without needing buses or church buildings at all. Some people on these forums participate in or manage such ministries, like Kyle here http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/bring-the-church-to-people.35331/.

A lot of churches, as we all know, are struggling with numbers, both in attendees and finances. Maybe the solution, for those particular churches, is to rethink the way they're organised, and that may mean giving up the building. Like Major says, the prisons and mental wards are overflowing. If that's where the people are, then go to them there. I am assuming most people posting here are in America, and I don't know how it is there, but here in Australia, prison ministry is seeing massive results. My closest friend is a prison chaplain, and each week he reports incredible stories of salvation and transformation. Prison ministry is not expensive. This is just one example.

For anyone managing or attending a struggling church, maybe that struggle is just an opportunity to rethink the way they're organised. Maybe insisting on traditions is not the best approach to respond to the need in their communities. Maybe it's time for them to bring church to the people, instead of trying, and failing, to bring people to their building.

Again, I am 100% okay with the way your church is run. It's just not going to be the best thing for every church group. Every community needs us to be something different to respond to their particular needs, and sometimes we need to confront traditions in order to be all things to all men.

 

[Brother_Mike_V]

Were you replying to me Mike? It's a bit hard to tell who you're responding to. I give to my church's ministry, and am happy to do so. I don't think I've said anywhere that we shouldn't give to support ministry, and I certainly don't think that. I think, from what you've been posting, that you'd probably have a problem with it if you found out a that a church was teaching a 10% tithe as a mandatory obligation; that's more the sort of thing I'm responding to, like the church I described where they were requiring members to show their bank statements to prove they were giving 10%.

I guess to summarise, I was trying to suggest that some church groups operate with vibrant and fruitful ministries without needing buses or church buildings at all. Some people on these forums participate in or manage such ministries, like Kyle here http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/bring-the-church-to-people.35331/.

A lot of churches, as we all know, are struggling with numbers, both in attendees and finances. Maybe the solution, for those particular churches, is to rethink the way they're organised, and that may mean giving up the building. Like Major says, the prisons and mental wards are overflowing. If that's where the people are, then go to them there. I am assuming most people posting here are in America, and I don't know how it is there, but here in Australia, prison ministry is seeing massive results. My closest friend is a prison chaplain, and each week he reports incredible stories of salvation and transformation. Prison ministry is not expensive. This is just one example.

For anyone managing or attending a struggling church, maybe that struggle is just an opportunity to rethink the way they're organised. Maybe insisting on traditions is not the best approach to respond to the need in their communities. Maybe it's time for them to bring church to the people, instead of trying, and failing, to bring people to their building.

Again, I am 100% okay with the way your church is run. It's just not going to be the best thing for every church group. Every community needs us to be something different to respond to their particular needs, and sometimes we need to confront traditions in order to be all things to all men.

Random babble for those interested...

The bigger problem; and the 'heart' of the matter is the condition of the 'body of Christ'. Mainly this is due to "new doctrines" and trying to be "relevant" to a worldly culture that rejects God. I fear the 'true Church' is actually much smaller than we profess especially in the USA; as Rusty would say with our 'westernized attitude'.

We should be able to walk into ANY church building in the USA (or world) and be treated as Brothers & Sisters because we are of all 'one accord' when it comes to doctrine. Unfortunately; most churches in the USA can't even agree on the basics of salvation.

The body is fragmented-not that the members are "different"; they actually dismembered and we have this Frankenstein thing that all claims to be of Jesus Christ-it is just not so....

So for little country churches that exist where neighbors are miles apart and there are tons of welfare/ poverty cases-YES we NEED a bus to pick up all the kids with parents in jail, out of work, no vehicle, no food so we can give them some sort of Hope a couple times a week if possible.

Yup-right here in backyard USA; you don't have to go to Africa or India-we NEED missionaries right here in the USA to reach these broken down and impoverished families. My opinion of most 'mega churches' is: if they are not reaching out to the poor and needy and widows-all they are doing is entertaining themselves.

Please don't take offense-and without trying to sound socialist-there are lots of people in our country that are hoarding abundance 'in the name of the Lord' when we have 2 kids here we can't find because both parents and an older sibling got arrested and CPS/ DSS came and scooped them up. (Pray for Ty & Shy)

Sorry .....I think that was mostly venting my frustration, my apologies.

GIVE! For the Glory and Honor of the Cause of Christ-GIVE! If not money, time, effort, labor, prayer...JUST GIVE!

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

 

[Roads]

So for little country churches that exist where neighbors are miles apart and there are tons of welfare/ poverty cases-YES we NEED a bus to pick up all the kids with parents in jail, out of work, no vehicle, no food so we can give them some sort of Hope a couple times a week if possible.

Yup-right here in backyard USA; you don't have to go to Africa or India-we NEED missionaries right here in the USA to reach these broken down and impoverished families. My opinion of most 'mega churches' is: if they are not reaching out to the poor and needy and widows-all they are doing is entertaining themselves.

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

Yup, I agree with what you've said in your post here, Mike, and I can empathise with your frustration. If you can't vent on the internet, you can't vent anywhere

I chose to minister with the church group I'm with now precisely for the reason that we focus our ministry on the most needy in our community: foreigners, the poor, the broken, the fatherless, the widows, and those in prison.

So I am very thankful that your church has resources like a building and a bus to allow you to do the work you do in your area. But just to add a light challenge as well: say the worst case-scenario happened, and for some reason, your church group had to give up the bus and the building, and there was no option to get them back. Would your church's ministry just be over, and that would be it for God's work there, or would you get really creative, and find a way to be the church anyway, and still be the body of Christ to those same people?

 

[GaryArnold]

NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE pays the Biblical tithe today.

THE FIRST TITHE
Leviticus 27:30-33 defines this tithe as a tenth of crops and animals in herds and flocks.
Numbers 18 gives the ordinances, or instructions, for this tithe, and commands this tithe be taken to the Levites.
Purpose of this tithe: to support the Levitical Priesthood.

SECOND TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:22-27: aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take to the yearly feasts.
Purpose of this tithe: “that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always”

THIRD TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:28-29: aka The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe - a tenth of crops, kept at home, and invite the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger to eat.
Purpose of this tithe: to feed the poor.

Now, tell me. Which of the above three tithes commanded by God does anyone follow today?

The ONLY people in the Old Testament that were commanded to tithe were those who INHERITED THE PROMISED LAND WITH EVERYTHING ON IT. They got the land, house, animals, crops, etc. ALL FREE AND CLEAR. No mortgage payment or rent to pay. And THEY were commanded to tithe on the crops and animals and take it to the Levites who INHERITED the tithe INSTEAD OF the promised land with everything on it. No one else tithed. Wage earners did not tithe. Jesus did not tithe as a carpenter. Paul did not tithe as a tent maker. Peter did not tithe as a fisherman.

When God gave the Israelites the promised land, He RESERVED, for Himself, a tenth of the crops and every tenth animal (Leviticus 27:30, 32). They NEVER did belong to the Israelites. In other words, the tithe was from God's increase of FOOD, not from man's income. It was a way to distribute FOOD to the Levites and priests who did NOT inherit any land.

No one, not even the farmers, tithed from their income.

The farmers made their income by SELLING and/or barter-exchanging their crops and animals but did NOT tithe on that income.

Today, ALL born-again believers are priests. ALL of us are called to be disciples of the Lord. No one of us is greater than another. Our bodies are the Temple where the Spirit dwells. According to the scriptures, priests do not tithe (Numbers 18).

As far as the tithe being a tenth of one's income - that is a man-made doctrine and has no Biblical basis. It's a real shame how many church goers believe everything they are told rather than check the scriptures to see what is truth and what is not.

The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice. In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was a tenth. The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of a tenth. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving a tenth.

 

[Brother_Mike_V]

Yup, I agree with what you've said in your post here, Mike, and I can empathise with your frustration. If you can't vent on the internet, you can't vent anywhere

I chose to minister with the church group I'm with now precisely for the reason that we focus our ministry on the most needy in our community: foreigners, the poor, the broken, the fatherless, the widows, and those in prison.

So I am very thankful that your church has resources like a building and a bus to allow you to do the work you do in your area. But just to add a light challenge as well: say the worst case-scenario happened, and for some reason, your church group had to give up the bus and the building, and there was no option to get them back. Would your church's ministry just be over, and that would be it for God's work there, or would you get really creative, and find a way to be the church anyway, and still be the body of Christ to those same people?

No the ministry would go on; but there would be a severe dent in our outreach as many of us are pushing our resources to the max as is. The only person that does not have a full time job is the Pastor-and he works as well as taking care of his family.

We have many members that do visitation after work during the week. Many people use their own gas, bring items to church, use their time without ever being accounted for 'on the books' so to speak. Actually if it weren't for many folks bringing things in, we would have a pretty boring-but biblical church-with no growth. We have people that pick up folks in their own cars, we have people that visit the nursing home and hospital on their own time. Our bus worker family spends most of their Saturday visiting and inviting. All without running the bus.

BUT, the bus is a tool to reach out and get these kids into an environment that is different from the world. for many of them it is the highlight for their week. Could we get them all in without the bus? Probably not. Some weeks the bus is nearly empty, some weeks the bus is full. We play the odds if you will. Our outreach ministry is actually rather ambitious. As it looks like now in our area-if we don't do it-probably no one is going to do it.

There is one other church that has a similar faith as we do, and they are trying to branch out, but I think God is blessing us-so therefore we have a greater responsibility and accountability to the Gospel. Our goal is not just to provide 'the show'; but to get the Gospel into the lives of the lost. There will always be a way to outreach-bus or not. But we were given a bus.....hard to look that blessing over without seeing God's hand in it.

 

[Roads]

Our outreach ministry is actually rather ambitious.

Mike, sounds like your church is doing God's work in your area, and I have no problems at all if your church leaders ask the congregation to tithe to support that ministry.

Generally, and this is no attack on the way your church does ministry, I do think churches would benefit from challenging their traditions and attitudes about the way they operate. I think a lot of churches, if they lose their building or can't afford to pay the salary of a pastor, they think, "This is the end, our ministry is over, people don't want to hear God's message!" But that may not be true.

Instead of insisting that people come to them, some churches will find that they can have a more effective ministry if they instead go to the people where they already are. Churches can be strong without buildings, other cumbersome assets, or even salaried pastors. Some churches, and I'm not saying all churches, may benefit enormously from not having a pastor. If there are a lot of mature Christians in a church group, the responsibilities a pastor usually takes on may be able to be shared among a volunteer core leadership team, for example. It's really important to know the history of our church traditions, like having buildings and salaried pastors, so we at least know what comes from the Bible and what is just tradition.

 

[Roads]

NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE pays the Biblical tithe today.
...The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means.

You're right, that's what the law says about tithing, and no one at all does it.

I don't really have a problem with it if individual Christians use tithing as a reminder to themselves that they should be giving to ministry, or as a reminder that their belongings are temporary and not truly their own, or whatever. If it helps them to be generous, then whatever, go ahead. For people I know who tithe, I wouldn't try to insist that they give it up. I would probably confront the notion that it's a scriptural requirement for them, and the notion that they should teach new believers that it's required of them, too.

Although I also think not tithing tends to solve some problems that may be issues to some people. Like, for example, the temptation to get into a habit of, essentially, paying a salaried "ministry team" to do God's work on your behalf. Or causing people to be the opposite of generous (i.e., okay my 10%'s paid off, I've met my qutoa!). Not that anyone on this forum is advocating either of those, I'm just saying, it happens.

Mostly, I think, which your post clearly demonstrated, that's it's simply not Biblical to teach that each Christian must "give to God" by giving 10% of their salary to the church they go to. Some churches, as you probably know, even teach that they are owed this tithe, or that not tithing 10% to that church is stealing from God, or that people will receive a curse if they don't give that specific amount to that church. Pretty disturbing stuff.

Also, "equal sacrifice" seems to be a helpful way to look at the Bible's teaching about giving and generosity. As you point out, it's much, much harder to give from equal sacrifice than to give 10%. Challenging post, thank you.

 

[Major]

[

Major:


I think the principle of giving back to God is relevant for today, for many of the reasons you describe, and for many other reasons as well. I don't, however, think a law of a 10% tithe given to your church should be taught in churches. Traditional and modern Jews in Israel and Orthodox Jews around the world don't tithe 10% of their monetary income to their churches, only churches in the tradition of Constantine (i.e., "western" churches) have interpreted the OT tithing laws that way. Just to be clear, the reason I'm saying that is to confirm that I agree that Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, but I also think that what exactly the "law" is, is not perfectly clear in all cases, and that a 10% tithe for all Christians everywhere is not necessarily an accurate interpretation of that law. And, also for purposes of clarity, I will restate that I think the principle of giving back to God is relevant for today. I am not in any way suggesting that because the 10% tithe is an inaccurate interpretation, people should be happy to keep all their money and give nothing to ministry.

If I were to read your previous post without any context, it may read to me that you're suggesting that tithing is the magic bullet that will cure society of all its ills. I'm sure you don't actually think that. We could all be tithing 10% or 50%, and still, perhaps still no ministry could be done at all, depending on how that tithe is being used, right? That's why more than a debate about simply whether we should or shouldn't tithe, I'm much more interested in discussing how churches are organised, how they're distinguishing church tradition from actual Biblical teaching, and how they're deciding as a church group about how to best work as the body of Christ to address the needs of their specific community, which may require a total restructuring away from traditional church models. Maybe all those disillusioned pastors you describe will be free from the need of having a pulpit to preach from at all, and still have a fulfilling and fruitful ministry? I'm sure you agree that the problems in modern western churches are much bigger and more complex than simply Christians not tithing 10% of their income.

I feel like we're all saying pretty much the same thing here which is: Christians need to step up and take on the responsibilities of ministry, because there's a world around us that needs Jesus. Amen?[/quote]

Well Mr. Roads........I can not in all honesty agree with you. Some of what you said is realavent and some is not.

To suggest that titheing is a magic bullet that will heal the world is both simplistic and absurd, don't you think????

The only thing that will cure the problems of this world is a revival in faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ and of course the less churches we have the less preachers we have and that means that the Word of God will be less and less. The result will be and is a society which is more concerned about itself than anything else.

Now is there a Bible verse that describes that????

1 Tim. 6:10.
"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

Then consider 2 Tim. 3:1-2
"This know also that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous boasting proud blasphemers disobedient to parents unthankful unholy".

The major sign of the last days is "Selfishness". The only two reason why a man does not give to God is that he wants the money more than he loves God(Selfishness) ...........and he chooses to disobey the Word of God.

Now as for the Jews who tithe or do not tithe...........when did we as a church of believers in Christ follow the dictations and directions of what the Jews do or do not do??????

Now if I read your statements without proper context, it almost sounds like you would like to see the preachers of the New Test. Christian churches without a church. Are you sure that is what you meant to say????

You said......
" Maybe all those disillusioned pastors you describe will be free from the need of having a pulpit to preach from at all, and still have a fulfilling and fruitful ministry?"

I did not say that pastors were "DISILLUSIONED". I said that preachers/pastors are unable pastor a church because the members of churches do not follow the teaching of tithing. Then the electric bill is not paid, the water bill is not paid etc. Therefore the church closes the door and the Word of God does not get out in order to fund that revival which is needed to change the world.

Now the Bible does not agree with you as it says in 1 Timothy 5:17-18
"Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.” And in another place, “Those who work deserve their pay!” (NLT)

1 Corinthians 9:14
"In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it." (NLT)

When people do not give to God, they are not following the clear Word of God. Now we can come up with all kinds of excuses but the fact remains in the Word.

1 Corinthians 16:2
"On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made." (RVS)

Acts 20:35
... remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.' (NIV)

God wants us to give because he knows how blessed we will be as we give generously to him and to others. Giving is a kingdom principle—it brings more blessing to the giver than to the recipient.

 

[GaryArnold]

In the scriptures, tithing is NEVER "giving back to God." That is man made doctrine. Regardless, the ONLY way the scriptures tell us how to give to God is when Jesus said what you do for the poor/needy you do for me. Giving to a corporation organized to do business as a church is NOT giving to God. It is PAYING for a service you are benefiting from.

In the scriptures, the tithe was NEVER the first tenth of anything. In the scriptures, the tithe always came from the NET and NEVER from the gross.

Pastors who understand the NT giving principles and teach them instead of tithing find they bring in more money than those who teach tithing.

The OT tithing commands were a part of the Levitcal priesthood which clearly ended at the cross per Hebrews 7:5,12,18. Those verses prove that tithing was DISANNULLED.

 

[Roads]

God wants us to give because he knows how blessed we will be as we give generously to him and to others. Giving is a kingdom principle—it brings more blessing to the giver than to the recipient.

Hey Major,

I'm pretty sure I've made it clear that I think we should give generously to support ministry. I haven't made that clear enough, I apologise! The verses you've quoted support what I believe about giving. I'm not in any way arguing that you shouldn't give generously. I'm only arguing that the "10% tithe given to your church" is not Biblical teaching. If I've missed something from scripture, I'd be more than happy to change my perspective. In the verses you've quoted, I see lots about being generous, nothing about a 10% tithe. As GaryArnold has pointed out in his posts, the NT teaching about giving suggests that we should be more generous than the minimum requirements of the OT laws.

 

[Major]

Hey Major,

I'm pretty sure I've made it clear that I think we should give generously to support ministry. I haven't made that clear enough, I apologise! The verses you've quoted support what I believe about giving. I'm not in any way arguing that you shouldn't give generously. I'm only arguing that the "10% tithe given to your church" is not Biblical teaching. If I've missed something from scripture, I'd be more than happy to change my perspective. In the verses you've quoted, I see lots about being generous, nothing about a 10% tithe. As GaryArnold has pointed out in his posts, the NT teaching about giving suggests that we should be more generous than the minimum requirements of the OT laws.

And that is exactly what I said in comment #43!!!!