Rofl, Allie - because we are in time (that always moves only forward) we cannot comprehend being outside of it. The physical is truly duh to that. I don't follow along with media preachers. I caught a Peter Popov (sp?) infomercial once and wondered why anyone would buy that and apparently they literally want you to shell out on thoses hopes. We are told in scripture that our "rewards" are in heaven, not here on the physical plain. To feel that God has to reward His children for their faith, in the here and now, is testing God and unstable ground to base your faith in.
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MichaelH
Inactive
Sister, I do my best to back every single thing I say with a scripture. Normally more than one scripture to compare. I can't do anything more than that. I hear the Holy Spirit, so lots of my post is not me, but what I have heard. So if there be any wisdom it's not Mike.
I sound a whole lot like Brother Copeland. Now I don't know what this put God in a box means. I never heard Brother Copeland preach that. Not saying others don't as "Word of Faith" is not a denomination like Baptist, and a whole lot of goofy folks is labeled Word of Faith but that is not my fault or Brother Copelands.
Word of Faith, the best I could describe is identifying with Jesus and the Disciples.
Most people identify with the people who have needs, like the women with the issue of Blood, the Centurion who found Jesus to heal his servant, Jarius who's daughter had died. The man who hearing Paul got faith and Paul saying stand up and walk. The crippled man at Gate beautiful who looking at Peter for money, received healing instead.
People get help and faith when they see Jesus and the disciples minister to these people.
Word of Faith Looks at the examples of the ministering. Instead of being the women with the issue of Blood, I am the one filled with the Holy Spirit doing what the Head of the Church says do and I am the one ministering healing. Who we are in Christ Jesus is the focus, not the people who where sick and broke.
Word of faith also takes the Word literal. If Jesus said that nothing by any means shall hurt us, (Luke 10:19) then for me that is a fact. I believe what he said, and that settles it for me.
God in a Box?
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Jesus did not even put God in a box, and we are not greater than Jesus. Brother Copeland does not teach we are greater than Jesus, He teaches to do what God says do and don't get out of agreement with the Word of God.
Of ourselves we can do nothing Jesus said, that is just how it is. What we can do is believe what the Word says, we can do that.
If I want a Lamborghini from God, then we are told God gives the desires of our heart. I can ask for one, and believe God heard, but I can't force God to give me one. We can ask though, but it's faith that receives and if we have not heard, there is no faith.
If God said to me, I'll bring it to pass if you obey me. I will give you a Lamborghini then I have something to believe. I have heard.
If God lays something on your heart and you know it's right, you can have faith for that and speak that. If it's something you came up with then you have no bases to believe God for it.
Lots of people put down Brother Copeland because they don't understand the faith the man has. 76 some years old and still flys his jet. In 45 years he had to cancel one meeting because he disobeyed the Lord and his back was hurt.
I am not defending Brother Copeland, he like everyone else has grown and had to learn from the early years. I have learned not to doubt God though by following him.
Blessings.
I have to agree Allie. Getting ones head wrapped around the time thing is a challenge.
MichaelH
Inactive
Have you ever examined what Jesus asked God in the Garden Major?
The Word is eternal and never changes.
Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
Jesus knew and reaffirmed in himself that God could take that cup from him. What did Jesus believe God could do? This is why he said, "All things are possible to thee."
Since the Word will always be true, for that to happen then all the eternal Word that Spoke of Jesus would have to not have occurred and been eternally written.
Jesus was asking the Father to change the course of history and time itself. To take that cup from him, would mean a whole lot of scriptures where no longer true, and that will never happen.
Jesus knew exactly what He was asking the Father and why he added all things are possible for you. It was more than just a matter of him not having to go, it was eternally planned.
Blessings.
Mike said...........
"Take my word on this Major, I will run you out of counter scriptures by over 100 of them."
At least I will have caused you to do some Bible homework, so there is always hope for you my brother ( lol)!!!!!
Personally, I am not one to brag about what I know Mike. I would say however that if you do know 100's as you say, then that only tells me that you do not understand the correct meaning of those verses.
Listen brother.........if it is your contention that God does not know what is happening tomorrow or next week or 10 years from now,
Wonderful you! I am glad that you are comfortable with thinking that. Personally I reject the idea completely as you already know.
Just so that we are all on the same page, in recent years some evangelical scholars have rejected the view that God knows everything about the future. They say this idea is based more on Greek philosophy than Scripture. What they see in Scripture, especially in the Old Testament, is a God who "flexes" with the actions and decisions of people, who even expresses surprise at what people do. The view is called open theism.
We should first note that Mike believes what God does not know is the future free decisions of individuals. "The future is partly open and partly settled,". If I am incorrect I am sure he will correct me, but I am pretty sure that is where he is coming from.
Jeremiah 29:11 ...( ESV )
"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope".
John 16:13 ESV ......
"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."
It also seems that at times something happens in the spiritual realm long before it happens in the physical realm. Samuel told Saul, "The Lord has taken the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it... to one better than you" (1 Samuel 15:27). It was over 20 years later, after many close calls, that David actually became king of all Israel.
Doesn't that say something to you right there Mike?
God is the God "who is, and who was, and who is to come" (Revelation 1:8). He is the eternal "I AM" (Exodus 3:14; see John 8:58). Perhaps it can be said that God exists outside of time, and that, to him, the past, the present and the future are all one. The Bible doesn't really tell us. But I think it quite likely that God sees time differently than we do.
This appears to be the result of brain washing IMHO.
By the way Mike.......you said awhile back that you had placed me on your "Ignore" option. What has prompted the sudden change for you????
Now you asked me..........."Have you ever examined what Jesus asked God in the Garden Major?"
Well let me think about that....Why Yes I have Mike.
Then you said...................."The Word is eternal and never changes".
That is also YES MIke. 100! agreed.
Then there is this.............."Jesus was asking the Father to change the course of history and time itself. To take that cup from him, would mean a whole lot of scriptures where no longer true, and that will never happen."
Now of course Mike, that is incorrect. See, there are not verses that say God does not know the future, just people who do not know what is said correctly.
You have a habit of quoting Scriptures but not telling where to find them. Some on the site would probably like to confirm what you say so I will post it for you....Matthew 26:39.
"And he went a little farther and fell on his face and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me, nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt".
The cup represents the wrath of God against sin which divine wrath Christ would incur on the cross as mans sinbearer. In the awful anguish of that moment the sin of the world was poured on Christ and He became sin for us. Confirm that please in 2 Corth. 5:21 Mike. His total submission to the will of the Father caused Him to be obedient even unto a substitionary death.
Just to show how out of the loop I am, what are the Word of Faith and Prosperity preachers? I agree about time being a challenge but one simple thing I can see clearly is that it is impossible to think outside of time when you are in it and God existed before time. God supplies our needs :
Matthew 6:25-34 ESV
“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
and :
Luke 12:6-7 ESV
Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? And not one of them is forgotten before God. Why, even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not; you are of more value than many sparrows.
To plan anything, you have to know things, to plan accurately you have to know all things. To prophesize accurately about what is ahead, God had to know and tell the prophet.
Matthew 6:25-34 ESV
“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
and :
Luke 12:6-7 ESV
Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? And not one of them is forgotten before God. Why, even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not; you are of more value than many sparrows.
To plan anything, you have to know things, to plan accurately you have to know all things. To prophesize accurately about what is ahead, God had to know and tell the prophet.
MichaelH
Inactive
Now we are going to run into the problem of being in agreement and not understanding each other. So is the way of forums.
God knew Jeremiah in the womb, ordaining him a prophet. (God planned)
David saying God knows the paths behind and before me. (God knows)
No Major, God declared and spoke what it will be, in every one of those verses. It's hard to not mess that up.
I'll explain it one more time Major.
Each person is made with a purpose. God does not blindly drop people on earth then gain some foreknowledge later about them. It's a plan.
Each person needs to find that plan. The plan is not foreknowledge, it's a plan.
The donkey that showed up for Jesus was not foreknowledge, it was spoken to happen. Jesus however needed to follow the plan to run into the Donkey.
Elijah was told to go to the river to be fed by birds. It was not that God knew a bunch of birds would happen to gather there, but God sent the birds to bring bags of McDonald's.
Your having to come to terms with wanting to believe we have free will but if that is the case then God does not have foreknowledge unless we follow his plan.
If God has foreknowledge before we are placed in the womb, then it's no longer foreknowledge but Calvinism.
God has never made a bad choice, yet, he had to remove Saul as King, Eli from his house of worship, and the list goes on.
The plan is perfect but man is not so perfect.
God knows us by our heart, and his Wisdom. Not by foreknowledge of just some fortune telling ability.
Saying to Moses, I suspect it will take a heavy hand against Pharaoh. God knows this because God knows Pharaoh.
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Just answer this this Major............... Two easy scriptures. At what point does God know here?
We agree there is a plan, it's set. God knows the start for us and the end of the path for us. I can prove that in scripture.
what happens when Man does not follow that Path Major?
Explain those two scriptures.
You claim I misunderstand them, so be my guest, explain away. I have more when your finished.
It's going to lead back to God is Love, His thoughts and plans are of peace for us, no foreknowledge or plans to destruction. God always responds to the actions and heart of man. Not some distant foreknowledge of man. Wisdom and heart, not fortune telling.
We have a free will.
MichaelH
Inactive
I never did that. You should not be on any ignore option.
Jesus was obedient until death. he did not want to go and be separated from the Father which is what was about to happen.
To take the cup, would make a whole lot of scriptures not true. He said nevertheless, not my will, but your will. He knew what he had to do.
Not sure how that gets confused.
I will dig to make sure your not on Ignore. I have not put anyone on Ignore.
be blessed.
Nobody is listed under my Ignore list. Is there another list I need to check?
MichaelH
Inactive
This is why Love does not have foreknowledge of people being destroyed. I know the thoughts I think of you said the Lord. Thoughts to bless and prosper you. (Jer 29:11)
It does not occur to Love to make someone with Knowledge to be destroyed. I have shown that over and over with many scripture examples.
There is a plan though and We are created for God's workmanship. (Eph) Man was designed to follow and obey God, not do their own thing.
God has no plan for us to disobey him, so get out of His will and your out of his wisdom and foreknowledge.
That is how it works, over and over in scriptures. God is not a fortune teller, He is a person that causes things to happen by declaring them to happen. Each of us has a plan and purpose he has set forth.
This is why It grieved him horribly to have to destroy man in the flood. Not his plan, not some foreknowledge but something man brought on themselves.
There is a rainbow in his throne room to remind him of what he had to do, and promised not to do that again. It bothered him that much.
blessings.
The rainbow comes after the rain, here on earth - does it say that a rainbow is in Heaven/throne room in scripture. I said to plan, the rhetorical you have to have knowledge of what is to come. To plan to exactitude, God has to have knowledge of what is to come. I am purposefully leaving out the word "predestination" because it implies a doctrine I don't agree with. I think free will means just that free ability to choose light from dark. Prophecy is not the same as fortone telling - just the phrase implies what is involved with that! You cannot do prophecy and not know what is to come. God allows evil because mankind chose it. His great love is shown by sending Christ to this earth to heal this issue that separated us. The scripture in the OT prophesize both a suffering and a ruler Messiah. Two comings but unlike the first time, Christ no longer needs or is needed to be born as a mortal again. You said yourself when you speak of Christ in the Garden - that he knew what was coming before it came. He knew Judas would betray. He knew Peter would deny him 3 times. This is ALL knowledge of what is to come.
Glomung
Account Closed
Kenneth Copeland has openly stated more than enough "questionable doctrine" to make it obvious that he's "more than a bit off", if not a blatant heretic. I would take anything that he or his followers say with a grain of salt.
Satan's likes to pass his lies off stuck right between verses of scripture.
Satan's likes to pass his lies off stuck right between verses of scripture.
MichaelH
Inactive
Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
Joh 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
I agree silk, I have tons of Scripture where God only knows a man by what man has done in the past.
Psa 44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.
I can't answer every single scripture Silk, I can point out the Lord said it's by the heart he knows man and he he tries that heart. I can show that it's not according to God's foreknowledge ability, but God's knowing everything about the heart condition of man.
How did Jesus know Peter would deny him? It was a short time after, and Jesus said to Peter that Satan desires to sift you like wheat. I suspect the Lord knew what Satan was planing and knew where Peter's heart was at.
The Lord sees all things devils are doing and way ahead of all traps the devil is setting.
The snare of the fowler (psalm 91) the Lord delivers. Must mean the Lord sees those snares and plans of the enemy.
As for Judas?
That is a strange one because Jesus said he is a devil. Acts tell us Judas went to his OWN place. I have no idea what Judas really was, or if He is connected to the end times in some way. Some believe He is, I have to say I don't know.
what is clear though is God deals with man according to his ways and nothing is hide from God concerning mans real intentions.
God's Wisdom would also show things way into the future just by all he knows, even the number of hairs on our head.
The good news is, that even after God said man was condemned, he always accepted a heart change and had mercy. That is the good news.
Joh 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
I agree silk, I have tons of Scripture where God only knows a man by what man has done in the past.
Psa 44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.
I can't answer every single scripture Silk, I can point out the Lord said it's by the heart he knows man and he he tries that heart. I can show that it's not according to God's foreknowledge ability, but God's knowing everything about the heart condition of man.
How did Jesus know Peter would deny him? It was a short time after, and Jesus said to Peter that Satan desires to sift you like wheat. I suspect the Lord knew what Satan was planing and knew where Peter's heart was at.
The Lord sees all things devils are doing and way ahead of all traps the devil is setting.
The snare of the fowler (psalm 91) the Lord delivers. Must mean the Lord sees those snares and plans of the enemy.
As for Judas?
That is a strange one because Jesus said he is a devil. Acts tell us Judas went to his OWN place. I have no idea what Judas really was, or if He is connected to the end times in some way. Some believe He is, I have to say I don't know.
what is clear though is God deals with man according to his ways and nothing is hide from God concerning mans real intentions.
God's Wisdom would also show things way into the future just by all he knows, even the number of hairs on our head.
The good news is, that even after God said man was condemned, he always accepted a heart change and had mercy. That is the good news.
Yes we have a free will my brother! Lets see what we can do with he verse you have asked about.
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Mike, the kind of language found in Genesis 18:21 actually is present throughout Scripture. As early as Genesis chapter three, God asked Adam, “Where are you?” (3:9). In Genesis four, He asked Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” (4:9). The book of Job reveals that at the beginning of God’s first speech to Job, God asked the patriarch, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?” (38:4). Are we to assume questions like these or statements like those found in Genesis 22:12 and 18:21 (“I will know”) imply a lack of knowledge on God’s part?
I mean that is what you are saying. Now, allow me to tell you something that you do not seem to know. The world renown
atheist Dan Barker, has used the exact same argument that you are trying to use. He alleged in a February 12, 2009 debate with Kyle Butt (Christian Apologist) that the Bible paints a contradictory picture of God and His knowledge. Whereas some scriptures indicate that God knows the future, supposedly, the God of the Bible cannot exist because other passages reportedly teach that God does not know the future.
Barker said:
"Look what God said after he stopped it ( Abraham's sacrifice)....... He said: “Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for I know now, I now know, that you fear God, seeing that you have not withheld thy son.”
I know now? I thought God knew everything. The Bible says God knows the future but here He is saying, “I didn’t even know.” The Bible even says that God searches and understands all the imaginations of the heart. The God of the Bible does not know the future (2009).
I thought you might be interested in the fact that atheist's are using the same thought pattern as you are. Strange bedfellows IMO.
Anyway.....What father, having seen his son dent a car door, would imply ignorance by asking, “Who did that?” Obviously, the father did not ask the question to obtain information, but to see if the son would admit to something the father knew all along. On occasion, Jesus used questions or made statements for the same purpose. When He questioned the Pharisees’ disciples and the Herodians regarding whose inscription was on a particular coin, it clearly was not because He did not know (Matthew 22:15-22). Likewise, when Jesus asked the multitude that thronged Him, “Who touched Me?” (Luke 8:45), it was not because the woman who touched Him was hidden from Him (Luke 8:47). Jesus knew the woman who was made well by touching His garment before she confessed to touching Him (Mark 5:32). His question was intended to bring attention to her great faith and His great power (Mark 5:34). In no way are the questions God asks or the statements He makes an indication of Him being less than omniscient.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
If you read my response to Genesis 18:21, you have pretty much the answer for Genesis 22:12.
The Bible’s usage of phrases such as “now I know” (Genesis 22:12) or “I will know” (Genesis 18:21) in reference to God actually are for the benefit of man. Throughout the Bible, human actions (such as “learning”) frequently are attributed to God for the purpose of helping us better understand His infinity. When Jehovah “came down to see the city and the tower” built at Babel (Genesis 11:5), it was not for the purpose of gaining knowledge. Anthropomorphic expressions such as these are not meant to suggest that God is not always fully aware of everything. Rather, as in the case of Babel, such wording was used to show that He was “officially and judicially taking the situation under direct observation and consideration”. Almighty God visited Sodom and Gomorrah likely “for appearance’ sake, that men might know directly that God had actually seen the full situation before He acted in judgment”. “These cities were to be made ensamples to all future ages of God’s severity, and therefore ample proof given that the judgment was neither rash nor excessive (Ezek 18:23; Jer 18:7)”.
I do hope this helps your understanding.
Amen my brother, Amen!
Glomung
Account Closed
Because I know it's coming shortly....
here's a link to some of the more inetresting notions posed by Ken Copeland
http://www.pastorpauley.com/faq/kenneth_copeland.htm
the net is full of the folly of Copeland, google is your friend
here's a link to some of the more inetresting notions posed by Ken Copeland
http://www.pastorpauley.com/faq/kenneth_copeland.htm
the net is full of the folly of Copeland, google is your friend
Glomung
Account Closed
Because I know it's coming shortly....
here's a link to some of the more inetresting notions posed by Ken Copeland
http://www.pastorpauley.com/faq/kenneth_copeland.htm
the net is full of the folly of Copeland, google is your friend
here's a link to some of the more inetresting notions posed by Ken Copeland
http://www.pastorpauley.com/faq/kenneth_copeland.htm
the net is full of the folly of Copeland, google is your friend
Glomung
Account Closed
Because I know it's coming shortly....
here's a link to some of the more inetresting notions posed by Ken Copeland
http://www.pastorpauley.com/faq/kenneth_copeland.htm
the net is full of the folly of Copeland, google is your friend
here's a link to some of the more inetresting notions posed by Ken Copeland
http://www.pastorpauley.com/faq/kenneth_copeland.htm
the net is full of the folly of Copeland, google is your friend
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