Things New To Me

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Well, I'm not clear about the serpent seed doctrine, but was it not God's plan to have Jesus crucified? Lucifer just wasn't in on the plan or he would have done everything to stop it. And I agree, no serpent seed in the line of David. But I would have to say that when God took human form, it was that of a man. And I feel a bit silly saying it, but I do think of God as a He.

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Rofl - I know. Whoever heard of females with authority! (surreptitious thwak to Michael)

I was reading Kenneth Copelands book "The blessing of the Lord makes rich"

In the book he said God's plan was that Adam succeed and dominate the earth. God would then reveal his son to man to live with us and all live happily ever after.

God does not plan failures, ever. It's those He made that creates failures and why he sent his word to heal us and deliver us from OUR destruction.

However........ For some odd reason Kenneth later on in the book said. "God knew Adam would blow it and before the foundation of the World had already planned Jesus to come."

This is a doctrine of foreknowledge (Arminism)

Kenneth just contradicted what He said at the start of the book. He did it because it's just a doctrine everyone believes and I don't think He caught what he said by the Holy Spirit at the start of the book.

we all know things in part.

There is zero scripture that denotes God' planned from the start to have to crucify His son.

some use the verse in Peter (Jesus ordained before the foundation of the World) but that is not what the verse means.

Remember, God "Found" iniquity in Satan. It was not put there by God or planned by God. He found it, and he found it in the Garden where Satan put the nail in his coffin. We have no other scripture proving Satan had crossed the line until this point.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(Eze 28:13-15)

Satan in the Garden of Eden and busted by God for messing with His man Adam.

That tells us it was not God's plan for Adam to fail, but to bless Adam and have the original plan of being fruitful and multiply filling the Earth.

Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth

The plan was that the Blessing be on them. Adam removed that blessing by listening to Eve and the devil.
 
Well, I'm not clear about the serpent seed doctrine, but was it not God's plan to have Jesus crucified? Lucifer just wasn't in on the plan or he would have done everything to stop it. And I agree, no serpent seed in the line of David. But I would have to say that when God took human form, it was that of a man. And I feel a bit silly saying it, but I do think of God as a He.

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Rofl - I know. Whoever heard of females with authority! (surreptitious thwak to Michael)

The serpent seed teaching comes from those who believe that Eve had sex with Satan thus producing a "seed" which is still with us today and it would be a demonic seed.

It is totally baseless and is not in the Scriptures neither is it even hinted at. It is total fabrication.
 
Well, I'm not clear about the serpent seed doctrine, but was it not God's plan to have Jesus crucified? Lucifer just wasn't in on the plan or he would have done everything to stop it. And I agree, no serpent seed in the line of David. But I would have to say that when God took human form, it was that of a man. And I feel a bit silly saying it, but I do think of God as a He.

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Rofl - I know. Whoever heard of females with authority! (surreptitious thwak to Michael)

Truth is he has never met my wife!!!!
 
God gave humanity free will and so, of course, it is His creations that would fail/choose rejection. The prophets in the OT spoke of 2 comings of Christ, they just didn't distinguish which was which. That speaks to warning what could happen. I'm going to go with God knowing that Christ was needed the first time to be crucified for the expiation of all man's sin. It is a reaction by God to what happened, but it was also the perfect solution.
 
OK - I am not buying the serpent had sex with Eve, either, but that doesn't explain the seed of Lucifer verse. Granted, humans following Satin could be considered seed. But it could be equally said that Lucifer was there when man was created and knew about, let's say DNA. As a consequence, Satin could screw with that.
 
Believe it or not, the Jews look for two Messiahs: Ben David and Ben Joseph; the suffering messiah and the ruling messiah, but they're as splintered as Christians.
 
OK - I am not buying the serpent had sex with Eve, either, but that doesn't explain the seed of Lucifer verse. Granted, humans following Satin could be considered seed. But it could be equally said that Lucifer was there when man was created and knew about, let's say DNA. As a consequence, Satin could screw with that.

The Septuagint (Greek translation of the Hebrew OT by Rabbis) uses the word sperma - seed, semen, sperm.

15 και εχθραν θησω ανα μεσον σου και ανα μεσον της γυναικος και ανα μεσον του σπερματος σου και ανα μεσον του σπερματος αυτης αυτος σου τηρησει κεφαλην και συ τηρησεις αυτου πτερναν

And the words literally mean semen of this meaning offspring.
 
OK - I am not buying the serpent had sex with Eve, either, but that doesn't explain the seed of Lucifer verse. Granted, humans following Satin could be considered seed. But it could be equally said that Lucifer was there when man was created and knew about, let's say DNA. As a consequence, Satin could screw with that.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
(Heb 2:14-15)

1Jn 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus main reason for coming was not to save us from sin. That is not what scripture says was his main purpose. It was to destroy the Work of the devil by what Adam gave over to the devil making the devil the god of this World.

All under Adam God's first man is all under sin and the devil.

Joh 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Those that are under Adam and the curse not knowing Jesus are the seed of the devil. For it's the devil that sows the tares (His people) That seed was created by Adams disobedience (Sin) not by the devil having sex with Eve.

be blessed.
 
God gave humanity free will and so, of course, it is His creations that would fail/choose rejection. The prophets in the OT spoke of 2 comings of Christ, they just didn't distinguish which was which. That speaks to warning what could happen. I'm going to go with God knowing that Christ was needed the first time to be crucified for the expiation of all man's sin. It is a reaction by God to what happened, but it was also the perfect solution.

I hear what you are saying Silk and apparently you are struggling with the answer. May I say to you with all confidence that
God knew, even prior to creating the world, that man would sin. As the the Father He also planned to send His Son as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world.

The reason I say that is because if Jesus was not known as the atoning sacrifice of God for man, then He would be a SECOND STRINGER, PLAN 2. Now as far as I am concerned Jesus is first and foremost in ALL things and that would include Him knowing in times past that He would come as the Son of God to die as the Sacrifice of God for all humanity.

It would also be confirmed by the Scriptures in Luke 19:10“For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 6:38:.......... “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.”

1 John 4:14: “That the Father sent the Son as the Savior of the world.”

God did not send an angel nor a good man, the savior is God who became man. The Bible says, “the grace of God has appeared to all men.” Christ came for all. Christianity is for everyone but not everyone will respond; only those who acknowledge they are sinful. For one to know this they only have to look at God’s standard, his commands and his law to find they have not obeyed them perfectly and have fallen short of keeping them.

Now, did God know Jesus would die for man. YES! Did Jesus know He would die for man? YES!!!!

John 8:28............
"Then Jesus said to them, 'When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things'" .

WHEN did He know that He would die for men?

John 8:58...........
"Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 17:5.............
"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

The pre-incarnate Christ always knew He was the second Person of the Trinity. He made the worlds:

Heb. 1:2..........
"(God) has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds".

Genesis 3:15..........
Jesus knew from the foundation of the world that He would die for our sins: " Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”

Rev. 13:8..........
"..... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".

Silk........As far as I know, the Bible does not explicitly tell us why God chose to create the world as He did. However, since the Bible does tell us that God is perfectly good and wise, I think we are safe in assuming that God had good and wise reasons for doing things this way. We can only speculate on what those reasons might have been. But ultimately, we have to rest in the morally perfect character of God, trusting in His goodness and wisdom.
 
I think mankind is responsible for their own disobedience and separation from God, regardless of Lucifer's part in all this. And I think our separation over all this time is not a punishment from God but rather a loving God, who knew we would disintegrate in His presence, if we were to be brought into His presence, without Christ as a "filter". I define Hell as a separation from God. No one knows all of God's plan, certainly not Lucifer. Free will allowance has to be a major part of this. The fallen angels had free will, as I guess do all angels as well. I know God's plan includes the saving of us all from this separation. As of now, I can't conceive of it and that some, if not a whole lot will be lost. It seems to me unfair that everyone will not have a chance at losing this separation, when we don't know all of the truth. That may seem unclear, but I truly feel that those, in this day and age, who reject God don't know the whole truth.
 
Does the spirit world interact with the physical world? Yes. After Jesus rose from the dead did He not have a physical form? Yes. Did He not eat after the resurrection? Yes. Did not the angels eat with Abraham? Yes. Did not the angels forcibly remove Lot and his family? Yes. Did not Jacob wrestle with the Lord's Angel and not let Him go? Yes. Everything in the physical has DNA. The fact Jesus was born of a virgin without a physical male to mate with Mary shows that DNA was passed to her by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit in the physical. Spiritual to physical. With all these facts, what's the big deal with believe Gen 3:15 literally and the devil having actual DNA? He's still a created being. I don't understand why this is such a hard thing to grasp and is made allegorical to mean good vs. evil which waters down the truth.
 
We know Christ cast out demons from humans (one called Legion but is this the actual name or a description). Did anyone ever do that before? I know the Jewish authorities tried to say Christ was acting thru the power of evil who had caused the affliction to begin with - but why weren't they astounded that any person could cast out demons and with such ease.
 
Lack of faith, understanding and domatic pride. They took the teachings of God and made it manageable instead of holding it to the level of literal truth and skirted the truth for lies. This is why Jesus said to them if you lust after a woman you committed adultery and if you hate your brother you've committed murder. The Law was made to prove to man they could not keep it. They made it so man could keep it (albeit only in the eyes of men) and Jesus elevated the Law back to it's honorable position meaning that man can't keep it and must rely in faith to be free. Look at David, by the Law he was to die. Yet he was the apple of God's eye and why we sing of the Mercies of David! :)
 
The only event that I can think of in the OT about possession, is that the spirit of God had left King Saul (due to his disobedience to God? Mosaic Law?) and implies he was possessed. Are there any others? Was he possessed when he went to the Witch of Endor? And yet the prophet Samuel's spirit still came.

There is some reason why most, if not all, demons need a host. Revelation says that Lucifer will "indwell" in the antichrist.
 
God's prophets (and some virtuous Rabbis) were also able to cast out demons. Remember that Jesus asked the Pharisees "And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out?"
 
Silk, you're off on a couple of points. Saul was not "possessed", he lost God's support (so to speak).
Demons don't "need a host". They possess humans for several reasons, 1. it's a way of thumbing their nose at God,
2. the pure evil joy of tormenting and terrifying a human 3. they find some sort of comfort while inside a human
 
Depending on the version Sam 16:14 says that an evil spirit tormented him. The scripture says evil spirit from God but I am reading this as God allowed.
 
Actually the words are literally bad wind... Rather than a demonic attack, maybe the lack of peace because the Lord removed His protection from Saul being absorbed in his circular negative thinking. But then it could be as it's translated into English, an evil spirit. :p
 
Actually the words are literally bad wind... Rather than a demonic attack, maybe the lack of peace because the Lord removed His protection from Saul being absorbed in his circular negative thinking. But then it could be as it's translated into English, an evil spirit. :p

That made me giggle, Abdicate. Bad wind is so equal to bad spirit - both smelly. It gives new meaning to SBD (silent but deadly)
 
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Well said guys, and accurate.
All I would add is that Beelzebuth and Belial are not other names for Satan, they are different devils.
Beelzebuth is titled "Grand Knight of the Order of the Fly" and is number 3 in Hell.
Belial means "without a yoke".
The only difference between a "devil" and a "demon" is: devils are "management", whereas demons are "labor".
e.g. nobility and peasants
Hi Glo--- where did you find all of this info? Pretty interesting.
 
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