Legalism kills the Spirit. It is a sure fire way to promote occultic practices of the Pharisees.
The Ten Commandment Are Universal
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Not I...where do you get that from? I am pitting nothing. Faith is faith and works is works.
The Bible says what it says...KJV 1611.
I believe that the Bible says that "Faith without works is dead". ---James 2:26 KJV.
My thoughts about the Ten Commandments given to Israel, in comparison to the Law of God that He has written into our hearts, is this in relation to the Sabbath:
Exodus 31:13, 17
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you. ...
17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Ezekiel 20:12, 20
12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them. ...
20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.
Where it's true that anyone can observe Sabbath-keeping, it was never commanded of all nations, but only Israel, and the above verses back that up.
If this is a repeat of what someone else said, my apologies. I have not read through this entire thread due to time constraints.
MM
Exodus 31:13, 17
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you. ...
17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Ezekiel 20:12, 20
12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them. ...
20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.
Where it's true that anyone can observe Sabbath-keeping, it was never commanded of all nations, but only Israel, and the above verses back that up.
If this is a repeat of what someone else said, my apologies. I have not read through this entire thread due to time constraints.
MM
The Ten Commandments are not for us today. Christ fulfilled them. Living by the Spirit means that we are subject to the Higher Law that existed before the Mosaic Law, and continues after its fulfillment.
Some have tried to throw at me, as their response to this, the idea that the lack of adoration for the Ten Commandments on my part, as an Israelite, is tantamount to my not having to obey them. They're right, but not in the sense that I am then free to go out and commit the sins addressed in those commandments given ONLY to Israel. That is the go to for those who lack understanding, and actually have some diabolical agenda under their belt that's nothing more or less than mere sinister posturing to win at any cost...even at the expense to their own integrity.
The Mosaic Law was derived from a foundation of Law that is limitless, and therefore not constrained by any barrier; that's the Law of God. The Law of Moses was given to a man to be addressed to a nation...the very nation that promised to obey it all, and yet broke every one of them. The world, on the other hand, is beholden to the Law of God as the Lord's indictment against the unsaved for their sin, not the Mosaic Law.
If that were not true, then Jesus did indeed err when He said six times in Matthew 5 "...but I say...," when upholding His clear declarations to the fact that the Mosaic Law, in relation to the Law of God, was inferior.
If someone disagrees with this, then I will request that he/she explain how that's possible, given the clear language that betrays the differences between the Mosaic Law and the Law of God. Given that the Mosaic Law was downplayed because of its fulfillment in Christ Jesus, this shows that the Law of God is not the same as the Mosaic Law.
MM
Some have tried to throw at me, as their response to this, the idea that the lack of adoration for the Ten Commandments on my part, as an Israelite, is tantamount to my not having to obey them. They're right, but not in the sense that I am then free to go out and commit the sins addressed in those commandments given ONLY to Israel. That is the go to for those who lack understanding, and actually have some diabolical agenda under their belt that's nothing more or less than mere sinister posturing to win at any cost...even at the expense to their own integrity.
The Mosaic Law was derived from a foundation of Law that is limitless, and therefore not constrained by any barrier; that's the Law of God. The Law of Moses was given to a man to be addressed to a nation...the very nation that promised to obey it all, and yet broke every one of them. The world, on the other hand, is beholden to the Law of God as the Lord's indictment against the unsaved for their sin, not the Mosaic Law.
If that were not true, then Jesus did indeed err when He said six times in Matthew 5 "...but I say...," when upholding His clear declarations to the fact that the Mosaic Law, in relation to the Law of God, was inferior.
If someone disagrees with this, then I will request that he/she explain how that's possible, given the clear language that betrays the differences between the Mosaic Law and the Law of God. Given that the Mosaic Law was downplayed because of its fulfillment in Christ Jesus, this shows that the Law of God is not the same as the Mosaic Law.
MM
If we say that God's law as expressed in the 10 commandments is a reflection of God's nature then I'd say they are universal for this reason...
Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
But the BIG 10 were a revelation from God specifically to Israel and in no way justifies any man (Jew or Gentile) before God.
Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
But the BIG 10 were a revelation from God specifically to Israel and in no way justifies any man (Jew or Gentile) before God.
Very well said.
I've stated many times that studying the Mosaic Law is good. It shows to us our inadequacies in moral perfection.
Interestingly, most of the protestants I hear today who talk about how the Ten Commandments are binding outside of Israel, they are not obeying the fourth one, to keep the seventh day Sabbath (Saturday) when they meet on the first day of the week (Sunday) instead.
I also agree that the other commandments are reflective what what's in the Law of God that spans all the way from before the fall of man, over and beyond the end of time. The Mosaic Law was targeted.
For those who would ask how we can know that, I will point to the Mosaic Law itself. Animals that died naturally, they were not to be eaten by Israelites, but the strangers among them were allowed to eat that meat. It was a sin to an Israelite, but not to the stranger (Gentile living among them). The Gentiles were also not allowed to partake of the Passover meal unless the men were circumcised. Otherwise, Gentiles were not required to be circumcised. There are other examples in the Law of Moses that did not apply to Gentiles living in the land of Israel. In other words, the definitions for sin were different between the Israelite and the Gentiles, and nowhere did the Lord command the giving and enforcement of the Mosaic Law upon the other nations of peoples outside of Israel.
The purpose for the Mosaic Law covenant with Israel alone is clearly stated in scripture:
Exodus 19:4-6
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
The Church, however, is not bound to the Mosaic Law because:
2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Colossians 2:14, 20
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ...
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Those who choose to remain enslaved to ordinances are free to do so, but not me. My Messianic and HR friends have bound themselves, with spiritual chains, to the Mosaic Law under the guise of following Christ. Again, they have that freedom, but it is not beneficial. The sobering warning to those who think they are keeping the Law of Moses:
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
MM
The New Covenant is as it is. Different from the Old Covenant. Purposely by God.
It's God New covenant and it pertains to all.
Your writing suggest you only recognize the Ten Commandments as all of the commandments. I hope that is not true because I am up to almost 4 x's that number and counting.
Oh, not at all. The Ten Commandments were given to one people, one nation. They mostly reflect the Law of God, which is universal. The Ten Commandments themselves were not commanded universally. Nowhere did the Lord demand of the Gentiles that they all adhere to Sabbath keeping in the Ten Commandments. The Law of God, on the other hand, is what's written in our hearts, as well as the Jews who follow Messiah.
MM
Perhaps they haven’t yet found their rest in Christ and His redemptive work.
I see the Fourth’s fulfillment in that manner.
Hello Musicmaster;
I blue-lighted your post and believe Christ fulfilled them but I need your help breaking this down a little further for me.
I agree with your other points and God's appointment to Moses delivering His message to the people and living by them.
I choose to stand by the 1st four Commandments in my relationship directly to God. I live by the last 6 Commandments in my relationship directly with my wife and all people.
I also failed to keep them all. In the 7th Commandment for years I failed to abstain from looking at beautiful women with lust, and allowing it to fester in me.
Jesus stated He came not to abolish the Law (10 Commandments) but to fulfill them with the Love Commandments as well as thanking Him each day for the cross. I have to repent daily for my sins, whether the Law or the Love Commandments, it doesn't matter. I don't categorize my sins. I fall short and ask God to forgive me daily in the name of Jesus.
I'm forgiven, redeemed and saved by salvation. Praise His Wonderful Name!
I don't know if what I share is in align with your points but I'm open to discussing, learning and will be the first one to confess if my doctrine is incorrect. Regardless, I have all the faith we can learn from everyone here.
God bless you, MM, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my convictions.
Again we cannot keep it. But faith without works is dead. We aren't saved by works but the validity of a true born again believer will show fruits. If you aren't showing fruits and contiune to indulge in habitual sins, partake in wickness and so forth you are baring rotten fruit. You cannot live a spirit filled Christian life continually in sin (the Holy Spirit convicts). Doesn't mean you are SINLESS but it does mean in Christ, walking in the Spirit you will sin less. You become changed and transformed. I dispute the reality of people saying the commandments aren't for us. If you do a full study of "commandments" - Even in New Testament we are repeated told:
Jesus says: “If you love Me, keep My commandments … He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me … If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” John 14:15-24
Jesus says: “If you love Me, keep My commandments … He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me … If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” John 14:15-24
Thanks, Bob, for your feedback and thoughts.
Fulfillment, as I had pointed out in other posts concerning the very word of Jesus where He said:
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
That one word is the very one that goes almost completely misunderstood by most. Thayer's Greek Lexicon has this to say about the meaning of that word, within its grammatical and contextual construct:
γ. universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17
How are they obeyed today? By way of Christ's fulfillment of them, and:
Romans 2:12-16
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Some would assume that works of the Law are therefore the means by which we live the Law of God. Not so, and the scriptures continue:
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
There's the key. Dare we try to live the law by way of what we read with our eyes on tablets of stone, parchment, papyri or paper, we fail miserably. The Law of God has been internalized, written by the Finger of the Spirit of the Lord within us. Reading it is head knowledge, but what the Lord writes in our Hearts, THAT is the power unto obedience. For those who trust in their abilities to read and understand what they read, I leave that to them to try it, but they will fail miserably...time after time after time.
The Lord, who indwells us, He is the One who lives His perfect obedience to the Law through us by having written His Law upon or within our hearts.
In other words, when I fail at something I read with my eyes, and tried to obey on that basis, I am guilty of it ALL. Do we fail at the things He wrote in our Hearts. Yes, but it is the power of what He writes in our hearts that does the greatest work within, that we grow through the sanctifying power of His inner work within us.
So, those who read it to try and obey it by their own strength, versus those who have it written in their hearts by the powerful, glorious Finger of the Almighty, the contrast in abilities is quite striking.
MM
True. However, the power for obedience is FAR greater when the Law is written in our hearts than what we read with our eyes, and thus intellectualizing the Law toward obedience, versus that which is internalized in the heart by the Divine Finger that write it upon our hearts.
This is an entirely different matter/doctrine from that concerning the Law of God.
I'm somewhat at a disadvantage on account of the intermixing of the two doctrinal distinctives. We can talk about the fruits of the spirit in another thread, as well as works.
MM
I just know that it is through grace and although we cannot keep the law {there are over 613 laws in the OT} even the 10 commandments it is there to keep sin check and to reveal our sin nature. We cannot keep it as far as never sinning. If you break just 1 law you have broken them all. God is perfect and his standards are perfection. Which is why Jesus came to fulfil the law and when God see us - He sees Christ. He is holy, we are not. Doctrine or not. It isn't a salvation issue - we know that our works are like fithly rags to God. Nothing we can ever do will be good enough but we do it as obedient faithful children of God because we love Him. We walk in the Spirit as we obey, we mature, we grow as a new creature in Christ. This is how I understand it. It reveals the sin just as the Holy Spirit convicts.
Nevertheless, perfect law-keeping is a pipe dream in our fallen state…
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Exactly
Good point, CN, and I agree. We are released from the responsibility for keeping the Law perfectly because He did it in our place. We cannot take back what Jesus did in our stead, and do it better, or ever close to it, as some false religions teach by way of their false Jesus. The perfection for obedience is what the Father sees when He looks at us...He sees His only begotten Son, Who kept it perfectly for us. We have put on Christ, and so have His righteousness imputed upon us, not infused into us through the IV bag, false religions of works...which I will not name here since it might offend some.
MM
The belief that we all MUST strive to obey the Ten Commandments carries with it the requirement to keep the Sabbath, which is simply not a requirement upon us today...not even to the Jews.
MM
MM
Good stuff, everyone. I can't "reply cut" all the posts but I have been blessed with an open discussion on
The Ten Commandments Are Universal
I am blessed by the good fellowship, especially by bobinfaith (ha-ha) Good Fellowship, meaning, I can "listen" to what I'm reading, receive and learn from everyone's different angles. I'm amazed how crossnote can say few words and get his point across.
God bless and thank you, brothers and sisters.
