I shoulda said growing olive tree.that is how I see us Gentiles.. an addition to the already growing vine.
I shoulda said growing olive tree.that is how I see us Gentiles.. an addition to the already growing vine.
But then again Major, and this is speaking directly to what you have posted here.
You say,
"I just do not see the 144K as being without sin calvin in chapter 14. We also know from Romans 3:23 that is not and can not be the case with them as it is with everyone else.
"The context here is that they are glorified and in God's presence as this verse is after Armageddon and places them before God at His throne."
Yet you cite Rom 3:23. a passage that should rightly be applied to the situation pertaining in ch7, not 14.
If they are in heaven before the throne of God, then they have been cleansed and can rightly be described as they are.
I thought this replacement argument might pop up. No Major I do not subscribe to replacement theology as I believe I have also stated previously...a long time ago.
Quite to the contrary, I often speak of us Gentiles being grafted in, yet seldom if ever talk of any Jews being grafted out. I leave that for Paul. In any event being grafted in does not act as a replacement...only an addition. that is how I see us Gentiles.. an addition to the already growing vine.
I would, if I understood that ch 14 has an earthly perspective.But wouldn't you agree that the 144K are responsible to Rom. 3:23 as is everyone else.
I would, if I understood that ch 14 has an earthly perspective.
V1, Mount Zion is mostly referred to as being apart from this earth, both in OT and NT
V2 doesn't mean that because the voice heard comes from heaven, the 144,000 are not also there.
V4 is using past tense '..........have been redeemed......' Its a done deal.
Certainly before their redemption they were subject to Rom 3:23, but not after, else from what are they redeemed?
Well the nephilim thread on the other forum got closed as ppl keep arguing.
Talk turning to this silly rapture pre trib scenario.
If i may just want to post my response to this... And if anyone have a problem with it. Take it up with God, search the scriptures to see if these things are so. Please dont let your ears be itched and think you only a christian cos Jesus going to rescue you like an escape clause from earth. He wants us to walk with him day by day not fly away into the air somewhere.
Shalom.
Ugh. Now everyone confusing everyone else.
Yes there is a millenium. Yes there is tribulation. There has always been us christians will need to go through it, those near jerusalem will have to endure the worst..but dont think for a moment you somehow going to escape on a cloud somewhere. You may not see the armies of heaven, but they are there. Elisha or was it elijah saw. There is a resurrection. One for the righteous, one for the wicked. Whether separated out i think scripture does mention this.
Dont be caught in the wrong one. Jesus comes for us at the last day, not before. We are going to judge the angels. Goats on the left, sheep on the right. Who is taken away? The wicked. Who is left? The righteous, as we will not be moved. Jesus is returning TO EARTH to heal our land. And then the new heaven and earth will come and the former things will be no more.
The Jewish people, the branches that were cut off the olive tree, Paul says they can be grafted back in again.
Did not Jesus promise that when the Holy Spirit shall come ,HE will lead us into all truth?
How is it then there is so much confusion and denial of the truth when it is preached or taught?
Why then do people throw rocks defending their theological 'school' to the death rather than contending for "THE faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints"
Is God dead?
are those who say they have true life dead as well in truth?
Or is it that while they may be indeed BEGOTTEN again of God they rely too much upon their own understanding and think that despite the fact "that man by wisdom knew not God"
He can then by the same 'wisdom' know the scriptures as they should be known or understood.
Subjecting the scriptures to mans intellect and mind.Rather than subject the mind to be ruled by the Spirit of truth.
If there is strife if there is contention then it is nothing but the flesh and the carnal man or worse the natural man .
The rapture its purpose and time as in season is important.
For what is called the rapture is the translation of the Bride of Christ .
That is never preached or much taught in the church today .
Yet the scriptures say that "the Bride has got herself ready"
and Jesus said "be ye also ready"
So if you really want a better understanding of the rapture then get first a better understanding of the Bride of Christ and all the rest will fall into place in its right order.
in Christ
gerald
Well the nephilim thread on the other forum got closed as ppl keep arguing.
Talk turning to this silly rapture pre trib scenario.
If i may just want to post my response to this... And if anyone have a problem with it. Take it up with God, search the scriptures to see if these things are so. Please dont let your ears be itched and think you only a christian cos Jesus going to rescue you like an escape clause from earth. He wants us to walk with him day by day not fly away into the air somewhere.
Shalom.
Ugh. Now everyone confusing everyone else.
Yes there is a millenium. Yes there is tribulation. There has always been us christians will need to go through it, those near jerusalem will have to endure the worst..but dont think for a moment you somehow going to escape on a cloud somewhere. You may not see the armies of heaven, but they are there. Elisha or was it elijah saw. There is a resurrection. One for the righteous, one for the wicked. Whether separated out i think scripture does mention this.
Dont be caught in the wrong one. Jesus comes for us at the last day, not before. We are going to judge the angels. Goats on the left, sheep on the right. Who is taken away? The wicked. Who is left? The righteous, as we will not be moved. Jesus is returning TO EARTH to heal our land. And then the new heaven and earth will come and the former things will be no more.
You are so very correct my brother.
The doctrine of Grace was not taught or accepted until Luther in 1520.....but it was in the Bible all the time!!!!
The Rapture has become popular and accepted in 1850 but it was in the Bible all the time!!!!
well, babies do need to grow up sometime.
I think..ppl confuse justification with sanctification. And then born again with resurrection. and then throw in rapture just to confuse everything.
When baby in the womb..we are not born yet. We still growing. The whole earth groans yearning to give birth to the new creation. Jesus was not truly 'born again' until he had died and was resurrected. But the promise, the holy spirit was in him when he was on earth.
It is funny how some people use a lot of christian jargon and it then starts meaning different things. Just let the Holy Spirit teach you on what you need to know. I think he does sometimes operate on a need to know basis. If too much meat given too early those babies gonna reject it. But its not through any church this time whether it's Luther with a bone to pick or Calvin making a system of theology or some girl in scotland who has visions and spreads doctrine. Paul warned about this..don't say you are of Paul or Apollos or anyone else. All you have to do is pray and READ the Word.
Well it is very confusing because when you go to a church you dont always know. Theres all these different theological schools and bible colleges and denominations. Thats why its important to have your Bible on you when you attend any church so you can check what the Word says. Dont just blindly accept any teaching, esp if its 'new'. Dont hold to man maade traditions. And also read for yourself in your quiet time and write those words on your heart so you always have it with you.
Exactly! That is why lone rangers who reject or find it unnecessary to fellowship with the saints and get planted in a church in submission to God's government, end up running here and there, never coming into the truth and always being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. Ephesians Chapter 4:11-16. This is what the Word says and I believe the Word to be the final authority on all matters. God's government was put into place for the perfecting of the saints and for the work of ministry.The church cannot be perfected without those ordained ministers of God as listed in Ephesians .
The trouble is that there are a lot of ordained by man ministers .But not so many it would seem ordained by God.
Nevertheless we have this confidence that God knows who are His.
in Christ
gerald