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sound doctrine

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Lanolin, Jan 15, 2015.

  1. Well the nephilim thread on the other forum got closed as ppl keep arguing.
    Talk turning to this silly rapture pre trib scenario.
    If i may just want to post my response to this... And if anyone have a problem with it. Take it up with God, search the scriptures to see if these things are so. Please dont let your ears be itched and think you only a christian cos Jesus going to rescue you like an escape clause from earth. He wants us to walk with him day by day not fly away into the air somewhere.


    Ugh. Now everyone confusing everyone else.
    Yes there is a millenium. Yes there is tribulation. There has always been us christians will need to go through it, those near jerusalem will have to endure the worst..but dont think for a moment you somehow going to escape on a cloud somewhere. You may not see the armies of heaven, but they are there. Elisha or was it elijah saw. There is a resurrection. One for the righteous, one for the wicked. Whether separated out i think scripture does mention this.
    Dont be caught in the wrong one. Jesus comes for us at the last day, not before. We are going to judge the angels. Goats on the left, sheep on the right. Who is taken away? The wicked. Who is left? The righteous, as we will not be moved. Jesus is returning TO EARTH to heal our land. And then the new heaven and earth will come and the former things will be no more.
    chdmission and Waggles say Amen and like this.
  2. My real issue is throwing rocks at eachother over non-essential theology.... Let's face it - "The Rapture" clearly falls into the realm of "Non-essential to Salvation".....

    What happens is that we go from a real, useful discussion where we are plowing through the scripture and actually getting somewhere... and then it simply takes a huge dump into arguing, rock throwing, and declaring eachother Heretics and Blasphemers.... And then it gets shut down because people don't have the presence of mind to stop while they are ahead....

    My own personal opinion.... I don't think it's going to go like so many people think it will go.... BUT, if it goes the way I am starting to conjecture it might (AKA - what I am starting to see that the scripture actually seems to say) - it will be a huge, unexpected blow to "The Church" - and there will be a huge amount of hand wringing and possibly even a falling away....
  3. #3 Ravindran, Jan 15, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2015
    That's why I keep telling everyone to just listen to me.. I got all figured out and right about everything :D

    Edit - Meant to be sarcastic in case you are wondering...
    Mieppi, Major, Robine and 1 other person say Amen and like this.
  4. There is a Rapture, and your comment about "Flying Away" shows a spirit of irratation and imaturity.

    If you understood the anointing and power available to you, then you would not focus on pre-tribers just wanting to run and fly away. You would understand why we can't be here.

    You also need to understand the key turning scriptures of the Post and pre tib views. The tares and wheat are for novices and are not important in defending one or the other.

    Both views end in the same place (rev 19)

    preterist are a confused lot, and their view is so whacked that they make much of what is to come, already pass and hyperbole in the places they can't explain.
    Euphemia likes this.
  5. Glad someone has it all figured out. Even pre-tibbers want to keep the post trib view of Matt 24 as they can't decided if the ones taken and ones left behind is a good thing if your taken. In Luke 21, 17 it looks as if it might be a bad thing, unless there is a reasonable explination in comparing other scriptures.
  6. I just edited my post.. I was just trying to lighten the forum with my humor.. Sounds like that did not work out well!
    I would be last person to impose an eschatological view on someone.. These is no one who has figured this one all out..
    Major likes this.
  7. #7 JohnC, Jan 15, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2015
    Interestingly - I think that both views are both right and wrong at the same time because there are a lot of details that we mix up because of not taking the scripture seriously.... I have been going through Jesus sayings on Weddings and Servants.... For example....

    The faithful servants know about the wedding but are not invited and do not go - They are rewarded for being faithful continuing their service in the master's absence...

    The virgins on the other hand ALSO know about the wedding - but only the wise virgins are rewarded for being prepared and attending the wedding....

    Do you send virgins out into the world - NO. Virgins are required to maintain covenant separation... Do you send Servants out into the world - Yep, that's why you have servants... Servants are required to perform covenant duty....

    Are you super concerned with servant's purity - not necessarily - their job is ONLY to serve.. so a master may be willing to exercise grace in consideration for execution of their duty... What about a virgin's purity - absolutely, it's like #1 on the list....
  8. Umm, I still think you know all there is to know. It worked out fine. :)

    Thing that struck me is that they were still virgins, but not prepared. I am not sure how much that parable has to do with Rapture, but it's pretty clear that no matter what postion we take, we are to stay ready to give every man an answer for our hope, an do what we are suppose to be doing.
  9. (y)
  10. Just another two cents worth on the servants point you make. If we consider what it says in Romans 14:4 it is evident that the servants are indeed weak & have weaknesses otherwise there would be nothing to judge.
    "Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand." (Rom 14:4)
    BUT it is not for us to judge them one way or another for the role of judgment sits with the Master & He is able to make them stand. What we think in the final analysis is irrelevant. It is what God thinks of His servants & He will judge justly & accordingly.
    God bless...John
  11. It is right to our own master we stand. I can stand on firm ground and worked out a lot of this in my own walk to know..pre-trib rapture as described outside the Bible is wrong. I just go by what the Bible says without any preconceptions.
    So..what I think is irrelevant really I just want to encourage people to read their Bibles without any teacher except the Holy Spirit. Cos there are surely teachers out their to deceive and teach false doctrine according to their own desires, and that includes not trusting Jesus throughout whatever tribulation they will face.

    Hold fast to what is good...we cannot escape the fire..like those in the fiery furnace who refused to bow down to other gods. They were not whisked away. They stood. And were unharmed. It is our faith at stake. Do we trust Him or do we think..somehow we get off scot free like goats. Are we not prepared to be a living sacrifice...just as Jesus was? Or do we believe...that Jesus only loves those at end times and just let the martyrs bleed for nothing when he could at any time rescue them in the last 2000 years.

    I would hate for anyone to lose out on their reward just cos they believed in some false doctrine. If you love the truth, you would search the scriptures to see if these things are so, don't just blindly accept everything you hear cos there are many false teachers out there today. Who make a living scaremongering about end-times, and sell lotsa books.

    Waggles likes this.
  12. I replied filled with scriptures to your comments, but you chose to use information from outside sources which claim that this was made up in the 1830's. If you really stick with the scriptures, what word would you use for the 1 Thess 4:15-17 event? You say we won't go anywhere, so what do you do with these verses? Everywhere in the scriptures there is proof God pulls out His when wrath falls on the unbelievers.
    chdmission likes this.
  13. First, God uses anointed men who teach through the teaching gift given to men by the Holy Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit can quicken you through anointed teaching and give understanding.

    2nd, you could not hold a candle in any attempt to defend a post trib doctrine. God deals with this ungoldy world in a terrible and horrible manner fit for those who rejected him.

    There is no place on the planet you can be and stay safe once those trumpets start to sound. The earth is not in pain beause of the devil, in 2 places in Rev they curse God for what He is doing and repent not.

    The church is not here, and not even mentioned one time in Rev. A time when the World would need us most, there is no gospel or light going out in demenstration of power from the anointed church. We are not here.
  14. It honestly may have nothing to do with it... Or it might... I have not totally worked this out for myself yet...
    I can say that I am less sure of what I "Know" than I thought I was before.....

    So.... there are a bunch of sayings related to marriages...
    We have this wedding for the bridegroom... The Bridegroom is Jesus and the Master is God the Father...

    Interestingly, there are 5 groups of people in those sayings who do not attend... All knew about the wedding....
    Of those 5 groups - there is 1 group receives a reward for NOT attending - that's the Good and Faithful Servants....
    The other 4 groups all receive various punishments....
    Unfaithful servants - Responsibilities revoked, cast out, cut in two.
    Cast out guests - Cast out
    Foolish virgins - Cast out
    Invited guests who refused (who also variously insulted, abused, and even killed Servants of the Master) - Armies sent to destroy them and burn up their city.
  15. Pretty clear that the Parable of the virgins means to be ready. It could mean when the Lord comes for the church. They were just sitting around, nothing going on, not expecting anything. Suddenly the call comes for the Wedding. 5 of the Virgins had oil and were ready to go, the other 5 were not ready or expecting anything.

    Some of those Parables have to do with heeding the call of the Lord. Some are doing their own thing and don't have time for the Lord.

    Others seem to dictate final end results.

    Mat 22:13-14 kjva 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

    So now the Kingdom of Heaven is like a marriage for His son. They made light of it, and did their own thing, though they were called to come.

    Now, we can say this is Israel, but you don't get invited to the wedding without being born again. Everyone on the planet can attend this event, the door is Jesus.

    So, then those who are born again, and put in the body as God see's fit created for his workmanship. We all have a plan, race, purpose to obtain the crown and rewards. These servants were not cast into hell, but into Outer darkness.


    The Parable of the talents. One guy hid his money, and was not faithful with it. All the servants were given according to their ability to spend and use the money, but one did not use what ability He was given.

    Here we have 3 folks that served, given ability to perform task, yet one did not.

    Mat 25:29-31 kjva 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    The servant was cast into outer darkness, like the others, not hell. They had a right to have a call of God on their life, but they failed, or did their own thing.

    Paul said a mans work shall be tried by fire, but if the man does his own thing, and not heed the call and plan, then the mans own works is burned up. Yet the man is saved as if by FIRE.

    I have not got it sorted. Outer Darkness is not Gehenna, that was a physical place. It's not Lake of fire, that has a full name and is very hot and miserable.

    It would appear that Outer Darkness means a place of lost reward. Not hell, not like the unsaved, but a place for unprofitable servants with no record of fruit.

    I don't know. Might be something to look into.

    Be blessed.

  16. By Faith - I assume you mean well, but you come across as terribly arrogant.
  17. I mean well, and am Confident. Not met a post tribber yet that can go scripture to scripture with me and not come out looking silly. I know both sides of the argument, and can defend post trib doctrines better than those that actually believe in it.

    Not Arrogant, but well prepared with years of study.

  18. #18 sojourner4Christ, Jan 17, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2015
    The "day of reckoning" is a totally separate event from the resurrection/"rapture" issue. It is not the second coming. It is an event spoken of in the New Testament when the LORD returns and "reckoneth" with his servants (Matthew 18:24). The word is associated with an accounting, or a numbering, and the event is described in Matthew 25 with the parable of the 10 virgins (Matthew 25:19).

    The Bible teaches about a time when GOD will sharply escalate his dealings with unrepentant mankind - and a time when he will reckon with his servants. Ironically, the specific period when God inaugurates the Reckoning is almost universally taught to be a time when he will do the exact opposite of what the scriptures actually tell us he will do.

    In what may very well be the greatest tragedy of the last two centuries, the dispensational theorists have seized the reins of leadership in the "church" and as they have consolidated their power, they have widely programmed millions of church attendees into believing in something called the "rapture." The great irony of this is found in the fact that many of the verses put forth to describe the so-called "rapture" actually describe an event that may more appropriately be dubbed the Reckoning.

    One of the most common errors seen in prophetic studies is our apparent propensity to consolidate many passages into the same event - especially when such a compression is unwarranted by the text. Thus, when we see a verse that describes the wrath of God, many simply say this is the same thing as the second coming.

    Others, in seeking to "rightly divide the word of truth," arbitrarily assume the "wrath" spoken of in a tribulational context, is the second "half" of a theoretical seven-year tribulation. Because the doctrine of a seven-year great tribulation is itself false, the assignment of the passages dealing with the "wrath of God" into a portion of this faultily derived seven-year period then compounds the error.

    Thus, error exponentially engenders further error until the prophetic chronology that is specified in scripture becomes so completely convoluted that retrieving basic truth becomes a Herculean task. The largest single offender in this eschatology of the modern church is the false doctrine of dispensationalism - also known as the rapture cultcamp.

    Lest we offend the campers with the erroneous assumption that in slashing the false doctrine of pretribulationism we're propagating preterism or some abstract and non-literal form of the second coming, I'll hasten to state that Jesus Christ IS coming back in our time. Furthermore, he IS coming back physically, just as the angels stated at his ascension, "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

    The real question is not only WHEN is he coming back, but WHOM is he coming back to retrieve, and "what shall be the sign of his coming, and of the end of the world?"

    How about what the word of God actually says i.e. "...caught up together.." (v. 17)?

    Notice the order; we're caught up together with them, and then we MEET the Lord.

    We are everywhere, and from antiquity, while the pandering pre-trib "rapture" theory is a relatively new arrival on the apostacy platter.

    If the genuine seekers would stick to a single topic to its conclusion, then we could flesh out the truth to the edification of us all.
    Waggles likes this.
  19. Also, this aspect of my reply is related to the assumption factor. It is the assumption of the existence of the so-called “rapture” that is part of the problem. Indeed, if someone says they believe in the “post-tribulation rapture,” they are still putting forth the existence of the “rapture,” in that they are characterizing the legitimacy of the term, even in a post-trib context. Conversely, if you say you believe in the second coming, you are saying essentially the same thing -- but you are saying it in a fashion that does not tend to validate the existence of the fraudulent concept itself.

    This point merits repetition as it’s crucial. If you set out to study the “rapture” in the Scriptures (or even in an interaction with another believer), you have already forfeited a completely accurate result, for you’ve projected the existence of something that does not exist, and then sought to study it. In fact, for many years, we’ve strongly encouraged believers to study the resurrection of the believer, as it is a concept that is categorically enunciated in Scripture; and when a student of Scripture fully understands the resurrection, they will have learned there is no way for the “rapture” doctrine to be valid.
  20. Both post pretty long, but I did read through all of them.

    RApture is in scripture though, and you suggest to not study that. Not study scripture to get the truth............. Ummm

    VEry strange approach to scriptures. I'll just have to say I don't get it.

    17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

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