sound doctrine

[calvin]

Of the entire Bible, only in the one book...Revelation, do we read of this 144,000. yet there are so many passages in various other books that point away from interpreting the 144,000 as a separate end time entity.
I think that if the 144k people as a separate entity are taken out of the equation, then pretrib rapture thinking will suffer a very serious set back.
So I can understand why you and some others would be determined to see these as a separate end time class of servant.

They are sealed...we are sealed.Eph 4:30.
But if the Church is first taken away, how is it that all these without evangelism, are suddenly filled with gospel knowledge and an ardour to evangelize?
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom_10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
but there is more...

 

[calvin]

Rev 14:1,2,3,4,5.
A literal interpretation of these verses seems to indicate that they were without sin..why?
v4, if talking about their earthly lives as some suggest runs headlong into such verses as
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Unless they maybe are eunuchs...but we are not told this.
v5 is another one. Is there a man that has never ever lied?
it should be clear at the outset that these 144,000 were sinners in need of redemption V3 and again V4.These 144,000 have the attributes of people washed clean in the blood of the lamb, and if washed clean, then the acclaims of V4, 5 would be true, They are the first fruits, the Church is the first fruits.
This scene is from a vantage point in heaven not on earth.

So the only Earthly mention of these 144,000 is in rev ch 7 and there is nowhere near enough information given to warrant a postulation that these are a band of latter day evangelist sent out to save Israel. after the Church has been snatched away. I know those of the pr etribulation school will not change their mind, and that is OK. I have written this in the hope that it will be of some little help to those who are still looking for answers.

 

[Major]

Well actually Major, the Church is referred to as Israel.
Eph 2:11,12,13.
So, were were once alienated from Israel, but now we are not.
and again,
Act 2:17. Note that this is addressed to Israel, yet it refers to 'your sons and daughters' and we know that this promise fell also on Gentiles. Therefor Gentiles are included in the roster of sons and daughters of Israel.

There is obviously no distinction between peoples here..no Jews only, no Gentiles only, just one people.: a new creation.
Gal 6:15,16.

and again:
Rom 11:25 ,26
It seems clear enough that Paul is saying the Gentile Christians will complete the roster of Israel. (the Israel of God)
Again there is only one body.
and again
Gal_3:29 .
and again,
Isa 44:3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour my Spirit upon your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.
Isa 44:4 They shall spring up among the grass like willows by flowing streams.
Isa 44:5 This one will say, 'I am the LORD's,' another will call on the name of Jacob, and another will write on his hand, 'The LORD's,' and name himself by the name of Israel."
There is plenty of evidence that we are Israel.IMO.

Allow me to speak to each verse you used calvin. Ephesians 2:11-13.

Those verses do not say that Israel is the church or vise versa. What they teach us is at the cross, Jesus made full atonement for the sins of all humanity, therefore annulling in its entirety the old system of laws that marked divisions between Jews and Gentiles. Jesus is the way! Second, God has called a new people to himself based on the promised new covenant. This new humanity would no longer be Jews or Gentiles but Christian believers. In other words, this was God’s plan for the reconciliation of both Jews and Gentiles into one new people in Christ and that group including both Jew and Gentile became the church.

Acts 2:17.
It is of course a quotation rom the prophet Joel (Joel 2:2-14). His prophecy was given in the middle of a call for repentance from the nation of Israel. Peter uses that quote for the same reason. The prophecy indicated that something new would occur. Together with Matthew 3:11, 1 Cor. 12:13 and Eph. 4:12, we can see clearly that only New Testament saints were and are baptized into one body - the Body of Christ. These are New Testament saints which again make up the church. This was the start of a New Covenant and resulted in the church, which is part of all of the saints since the creation, BUT Israel is still Israel as ALL of Israel did not and has not YET come to Christ.

The body of Christ, or the church, started on Pentecost, which is recorded in Acts 2. They are "When were the first Christian churches formed?”. The body of Christ is composed of all the saints who are baptized in to the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 4:12). These saints are people who have believed in Jesus Christ.

Galatians 6:15-16
Calvin, this is pretty much the same argument as the others you have put forward. It is IMO what is called "Spiritualization".
The question presented by Galatians 6:15-16 is to ask if there is a special Israel of God that is distinct from the nation as a whole. There are certainly two Israel’s in the new testament, but they are both Jewish. One is simply the believing remnant and the second is the national and corporate whole. The way these passages are often interpreted is to spiritualize Israel as meaning the Church. I do not agree with that and say to you that all believing Jews are a part of the church, but not all of the church is Israel.

I am going to stop here because this is getting too long and all that I am doing is saying the same thing again and again and that is
all believing Jews are a part of the church, but not all of the church is Israel.

So hen Calvin, what I am saying and believe the Scriptures confirm is that the Church is the assembly of people, whether Jew or Gentile, who have been called out of the world to form the spiritual Body of Christ. . Those in the Church come together by the Spirit and through the Messiah. They are said to be "in Christ" (Romans 8:1; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 1:13).
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:23-24; italics added)

The Church is Jews who have been physically called out of the nations, but also spiritually called out from unbelieving Israel, and Gentiles who have been spiritually called out of the nations to worship the God of Israel. Both spiritually called-out peoples form one called-out people known as the Church. However, that in no way means that Israel is the church. It means that some of the Jewish people from Israel have come to Christ in order to be saved jus as do the Gentiles do today.

 

[JohnC]

See, the trouble with this discussion is that everybody is mixing up all the subjects and discussion of everything all at once...

For example...
Virgin betrothed have SPECIFIC covenant requirements - Purity, separation, and preparation....
Servants ALSO have specific covenant requirements - DO the will of the master above all...
BUT - though both have requirements governed by covenants - the requirements for Virgins are NOT the same as the requirements for Servants... They are governed by DIFFERENT covenants! and the requirements are Contradictory....

If you can concede that the Betrothed Virgins are NOT the same as the Servants - this "Problem" of "Contradictory" covenant requirements and qualifications all of a sudden completely disappears..... The rapture becomes easy to resolve through straightforward reading of scripture... Virgins are snatched away by the bridegroom. Servants stay behind to manage the Master's House.

If you cannot concede that the Betrothed Virgins are not the same as the Servants - then you have all sorts of issues with trying to get the various covenants and qualifications and scriptures to NOT self-contradict.... The rapture is more or less impossible to resolve without shutting your eyes to much scripture....

and that's where we are having the problems in this discussion.... One side is arguing that everybody is a Servant... The other is arguing that everybody is a betrothed virgin..... but nobody seems to be able to see that this is what undergirds the discussion...

It's like somebody looks out into a garden and says
"Look at all those Carrots"
Somebody else looks out into the garden and says
"Look at all that Corn"...

Then - they start arguing - NO - it's not Corn, it's carrots.... NO, it's not Carrots, it's corn.... and back and forth and back and forth forever.....

But open your eyes.... There's both Corn AND Carrots in the garden....

 

[Major]

Of the entire Bible, only in the one book...Revelation, do we read of this 144,000. yet there are so many passages in various other books that point away from interpreting the 144,000 as a separate end time entity.
I think that if the 144k people as a separate entity are taken out of the equation, then pretrib rapture thinking will suffer a very serious set back.
So I can understand why you and some others would be determined to see these as a separate end time class of servant.

They are sealed...we are sealed.Eph 4:30.
But if the Church is first taken away, how is it that all these without evangelism, are suddenly filled with gospel knowledge and an ardour to evangelize?
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom_10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
but there is more...

Calvin........There will be TWO preachers giving out the Word of God for 3 and 1/2 years from the Temple.

The 144,000 Jews are the “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and their mission is to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.( http://www.gotquestions.org/144000.html#ixzz3PZSNHF00).

My thinking is that God will come upon these 144K just as He did with the 3 Hebrews boys and Daniel and David and on and on and on. Of course the other option is that they hear and believe the witness of the TWO men at the Temple.The only difference is that the Holy Spirit CAME UPON believers in the Old Test. BUT came to indwell believers in the New Test. He was the Comforter.

 

[Major]

See, the trouble with this discussion is that everybody is mixing up all the subjects and discussion of everything all at once...

For example...
Virgin betrothed have SPECIFIC covenant requirements - Purity, separation, and preparation....
Servants ALSO have specific covenant requirements - DO the will of the master above all...
BUT - though both have requirements governed by covenants - the requirements for Virgins are NOT the same as the requirements for Servants... They are governed by DIFFERENT covenants! and the requirements are Contradictory....

If you can concede that the Betrothed Virgins are NOT the same as the Servants - this "Problem" of "Contradictory" covenant requirements and qualifications all of a sudden completely disappears..... The rapture becomes easy to resolve through straightforward reading of scripture... Virgins are snatched away by the bridegroom. Servants stay behind to manage the Master's House.

If you cannot concede that the Betrothed Virgins are not the same as the Servants - then you have all sorts of issues with trying to get the various covenants and qualifications and scriptures to NOT self-contradict.... The rapture is more or less impossible to resolve without shutting your eyes to much scripture....

and that's where we are having the problems in this discussion.... One side is arguing that everybody is a Servant... The other is arguing that everybody is a betrothed virgin..... but nobody seems to be able to see that this is what undergirds the discussion...

It's like somebody looks out into a garden and says
"Look at all those Carrots"
Somebody else looks out into the garden and says
"Look at all that Corn"...

Then - they start arguing - NO - it's not Corn, it's carrots.... NO, it's not Carrots, it's corn.... and back and forth and back and forth forever.....

But open your eyes.... There's both Corn AND Carrots in the garden....

Good point!

There are indeed carrots in the plot of land. Then we also have con in the same land. Both together make something new of that plot of land and it is a garden.......correct????

The corn is still corn and the carrots are still carrots.......separated in a GARDEN.

 

[Major]

Rev 14:1,2,3,4,5.
A literal interpretation of these verses seems to indicate that they were without sin..why?
v4, if talking about their earthly lives as some suggest runs headlong into such verses as
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Unless they maybe are eunuchs...but we are not told this.
v5 is another one. Is there a man that has never ever lied?
it should be clear at the outset that these 144,000 were sinners in need of redemption V3 and again V4.These 144,000 have the attributes of people washed clean in the blood of the lamb, and if washed clean, then the acclaims of V4, 5 would be true, They are the first fruits, the Church is the first fruits.
This scene is from a vantage point in heaven not on earth.

So the only Earthly mention of these 144,000 is in rev ch 7 and there is nowhere near enough information given to warrant a postulation that these are a band of latter day evangelist sent out to save Israel. after the Church has been snatched away. I know those of the pr etribulation school will not change their mind, and that is OK. I have written this in the hope that it will be of some little help to those who are still looking for answers.

Brother calvin.......consider the results of the 144K.

God is going to bless all nations through Abraham and his seed, it is evident that these 144,000 Jewish servants are to be that many Jewish “Apostle Pauls” conducting the world-wide revival in the Tribulation. The following verses of Scripture certainly tell that countless multitudes will be won to the Lord the Messiah of Israel, the Lamb of God, by the efforts of these sealed servants.

Rev. 7:9-10..............
"After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hand; and they cry with a great voice saying, Salvation unto our God who sittest on the throne, and unto the Lamb.”

Rev. 7:14...........
"... And he said to me, These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

Isaiah 26:9..........
"... For when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.”

 

[Major]

See, the trouble with this discussion is that everybody is mixing up all the subjects and discussion of everything all at once...

For example...
Virgin betrothed have SPECIFIC covenant requirements - Purity, separation, and preparation....
Servants ALSO have specific covenant requirements - DO the will of the master above all...
BUT - though both have requirements governed by covenants - the requirements for Virgins are NOT the same as the requirements for Servants... They are governed by DIFFERENT covenants! and the requirements are Contradictory....

If you can concede that the Betrothed Virgins are NOT the same as the Servants - this "Problem" of "Contradictory" covenant requirements and qualifications all of a sudden completely disappears..... The rapture becomes easy to resolve through straightforward reading of scripture... Virgins are snatched away by the bridegroom. Servants stay behind to manage the Master's House.

If you cannot concede that the Betrothed Virgins are not the same as the Servants - then you have all sorts of issues with trying to get the various covenants and qualifications and scriptures to NOT self-contradict.... The rapture is more or less impossible to resolve without shutting your eyes to much scripture....

and that's where we are having the problems in this discussion.... One side is arguing that everybody is a Servant... The other is arguing that everybody is a betrothed virgin..... but nobody seems to be able to see that this is what undergirds the discussion...

It's like somebody looks out into a garden and says
"Look at all those Carrots"
Somebody else looks out into the garden and says
"Look at all that Corn"...

Then - they start arguing - NO - it's not Corn, it's carrots.... NO, it's not Carrots, it's corn.... and back and forth and back and forth forever.....

But open your eyes.... There's both Corn AND Carrots in the garden....

I do not agree with your comment of "arguing". I am NOT seeing that at all. I am however seeing a worthwhile discussion on a Bible doctrine which has lead to a lot of imput and thinking. At least in my opinion.

 

[Major]

Rev 14:1,2,3,4,5.
A literal interpretation of these verses seems to indicate that they were without sin..why?
v4, if talking about their earthly lives as some suggest runs headlong into such verses as
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Unless they maybe are eunuchs...but we are not told this.
v5 is another one. Is there a man that has never ever lied?
it should be clear at the outset that these 144,000 were sinners in need of redemption V3 and again V4.These 144,000 have the attributes of people washed clean in the blood of the lamb, and if washed clean, then the acclaims of V4, 5 would be true, They are the first fruits, the Church is the first fruits.
This scene is from a vantage point in heaven not on earth.

So the only Earthly mention of these 144,000 is in rev ch 7 and there is nowhere near enough information given to warrant a postulation that these are a band of latter day evangelist sent out to save Israel. after the Church has been snatched away. I know those of the pr etribulation school will not change their mind, and that is OK. I have written this in the hope that it will be of some little help to those who are still looking for answers.

I just do not see the 144K as being without sin calvin in chapter 14. We also know from Romans 3:23 that is not and can not be the case with them as it is with everyone else.

I believe the correct thought from 14:5......."And in their mouth was found no guile for they are without fault before the throne of God".
The context here is that they are glorified and in God's presence as this verse is after Armageddon and places them before God at His throne. They will be just as we are as Christians then and stand before God with no sin because we are washed in the blood of Christ and are therefore blameless!!!

You are missing the important context which is LOCATION. You even said.......
"This scene is from a vantage point in heaven not on earth." (14:5).

That being the case......them being without sin is a NON issue.

 

[Abdicate]

Do you think it would have made sense if John had described himself at the bride?
I believe the focus is on Jesus and John's joy that Jesus has come....nothing more in it than that.

Well if you think the passage is trivial, indeed, ignore it.

 

[calvin]

Well if you think the passage is trivial, indeed, ignore it.

I do not think the passage is trivial and I do not ignore it. nor have I ignored the spin you place on it. I simply commented on it.

 

[Abdicate]

I don't like spinning, gives me vertigo.

 

[calvin]

The question presented by Galatians 6:15-16 is to ask if there is a special Israel of God that is distinct from the nation as a whole. There are certainly two Israel’s in the new testament, but they are both Jewish. One is simply the believing remnant and the second is the national and corporate whole. The way these passages are often interpreted is to spiritualize Israel as meaning the Church. I do not agree with that and say to you that all believing Jews are a part of the church, but not all of the church is Israel.

That is like one person saying that an orange is round and another saying that an orange is like a ball.
As I understand it, we both agree here, but have expressed things a bit differently.

 

[calvin]

I just do not see the 144K as being without sin calvin in chapter 14. We also know from Romans 3:23 that is not and can not be the case with them as it is with everyone else.

Agreed. I'm sure though that I have read posts on the forum from time to time where the poster has inferred that these are somehow without sin. Most of what I am posting, though addressed to you, is not necessarily meant as an accusation as it were, directed at you.
For example I have read someone saying that these 'Jewish virgins preach and convert' (not a quote verbatim), just the thought that has from time to time been expressed.

 

[calvin]

Then - they start arguing - NO - it's not Corn, it's carrots.... NO, it's not Carrots, it's corn.... and back and forth and back and forth forever.....

But open your eyes.... There's both Corn AND Carrots in the garden....

There is one crop of vegetables in the garden...plus a few weeds.

 

[Major]

That is like one person saying that an orange is round and another saying that an orange is like a ball.
As I understand it, we both agree here, but have expressed things a bit differently.

Not really calvin. You are saying that the Church has replaced Israel and I am saying that the Church is and always has been separate. YES.......there are Jews that are now incorporated into the church that have come to it on the same basis as Gentiles which is faith in Messiah Jesus. However, there is still the nation of Israel which is still in rebellion to Christ and THAT is what the Tribulation is all about......to bring national Israel to faith in Christ.

Romans 11:1-3 clearly tells us ..............
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life."

Romans 11:26.........
"And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;

 

[Major]

Agreed. I'm sure though that I have read posts on the forum from time to time where the poster has inferred that these are somehow without sin. Most of what I am posting, though addressed to you, is not necessarily meant as an accusation as it were, directed at you.
For example I have read someone saying that these 'Jewish virgins preach and convert' (not a quote verbatim), just the thought that has from time to time been expressed.

No Problem calvin. You do not have to be concerned with me. We are brothers in Christ just having a conversation.
I love it!!!!!

 

[Major]

There is one crop of vegetables in the garden...plus a few weeds.

Very true as the nation of Israel is still spiritually blinded.

 

[calvin]

I just do not see the 144K as being without sin calvin in chapter 14. We also know from Romans 3:23 that is not and can not be the case with them as it is with everyone else.

I believe the correct thought from 14:5......."And in their mouth was found no guile for they are without fault before the throne of God".
The context here is that they are glorified and in God's presence as this verse is after Armageddon and places them before God at His throne. They will be just as we are as Christians then and stand before God with no sin because we are washed in the blood of Christ and are therefore blameless!!!

You are missing the important context which is LOCATION. You even said.......
"This scene is from a vantage point in heaven not on earth." (14:5).

That being the case......them being without sin is a NON issue.

But then again Major, and this is speaking directly to what you have posted here.
You say,
"I just do not see the 144K as being without sin calvin in chapter 14. We also know from Romans 3:23 that is not and can not be the case with them as it is with everyone else.
"The context here is that they are glorified and in God's presence as this verse is after Armageddon and places them before God at His throne."
Yet you cite Rom 3:23. a passage that should rightly be applied to the situation pertaining in ch7, not 14.
If they are in heaven before the throne of God, then they have been cleansed and can rightly be described as they are.

 

[calvin]

Not really calvin. You are saying that the Church has replaced Israel and I am saying that the Church is and always has been separate. YES.......there are Jews that are now incorporated into the church that have come to it on the same basis as Gentiles which is faith in Messiah Jesus. However, there is still the nation of Israel which is still in rebellion to Christ and THAT is what the Tribulation is all about......to bring national Israel to faith in Christ.

I thought this replacement argument might pop up. No Major I do not subscribe to replacement theology as I believe I have also stated previously...a long time ago.

Quite to the contrary, I often speak of us Gentiles being grafted in, yet seldom if ever talk of any Jews being grafted out. I leave that for Paul. In any event being grafted in does not act as a replacement...only an addition. that is how I see us Gentiles.. an addition to the already growing vine.