To disagree lol got ya!!!!
Having a little fun in the thread with friends.
Only one of us can be right you know that, well I won't say it LOL.
I do respect our conversation and it's been fun I'm working on another one just for major LOL hope everybody will comment and pick each other's brain.
Thanks Chris for your words as always, Marlynn (my moms name) thank you great Scriptures, CCW niceto have have you straighten this out LOL great Scriptures.to have have you straighten this out LOL great Scriptures
That is alot of things going on inside the believer to hold to "the two dogs fighting" theory.
It flys in the mainline Doctrine, but has no wieght in Scripture.
Because a Christian sins they think they have a sin nature, of coarse there is no lack of preaching to keep them condemned to that understanding.
I just wonder what Jesus crucified then, put to death, Paul said it was him that was crucified in Christ, oldman out new man in, must read the scripture as there written.
I agree completely. But when that is done, what then to we say to those who will not accept it just as it is printed? I uselly do not make long posts and I do not place this much time into conversations. But this seems to be a very active thread so I am going to do what I do not do to see if the Scriptures will really do what you ask. Lets see shall we????????
You have stated that Rom. 7:14-25 is speaking of Paul before he was saved. Of course the reason for that is to spiritualize what Paul wrote so as to make it look like he was not saying that as a Christian he was affected by his old nature of sin and in fact was still a sinner.
Now, what you said and believe may or may not be true but the fact is that it does not say that.
You have stated if I remember correctly that verse 14 is the key: .........
“I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin”.
Then point to verse 18, which says, “For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.”
The conclusion then being that Paul has to be a non-Christian because a Christian knows how to do what’s good. There seems to be an obvious lack of the Holy Spirit’s power here. Now that is what I remember but I may not be correct but it seems like we had that conversation and I just do not feel like going thru all the posts to find which one.
So then, the change in verb tenses is a clue that this passage applies to a Christian. The verbs in Romans 7:7-13 are in fact in the past tense. It is those verses which refer to Paul’s life before his conversion and the process of conviction he experienced when he stood face to face with the law of God. However in verses 14–25, where we see the battle with sin taking place,
they are in the present tense.
I believe Romans 7:14-25 is Paul’s own testimony of how it is to live as a Spirit controlled, mature believer. He loves the holy law of God with his whole heart, but finds himself wrapped in human flesh and unable to fulfill it the way his heart wants him to because he still has that old nature of sin.
Now notice the despair of verse 24—“
Wretched man that I am!” (I am being present tense.)
It seems far removed from the promise of Rom. 5:1-2..........
“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.”
But lets move from chapter 7 and to chapter 6 of Romans keeping in mind that we are talking about Paul BEFORE he was saved being the thesis for your thinking of the Old Sin Nature.
Chapter 6 emphasizes the new creation, the new nature, the new identity, the new person in Christ, and the holiness of the believer. In his new redeemed self, the believer is no longer under sin’s dominion. However, chapter 7 gives the other side, isn't that correct??????
Every Christian knows from experience that though he is a new creature in Christ, sin is still a problem. In fact, that conflict is pointed out even in chapter 6:12-13...........
“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness”.
Because it’s still possible for Christians to yield to sin, even though we are commanded not to.
Arguing that chapter 7 cannot refer to a Christian because of statements in chapter 6 is to misunderstand the intention of chapter 6.
Paul says in Rom. 7:22............
“For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man”.
That certainly isn’t something a non Christian could accurately claim.
Romans 8:7 says that the unregenerate person is not subject to the law of God.
In
Romans 7:25 Paul says.............
“Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God.”
That sounds like a Christian.
Romans 3:23 tells us that the unsaved person has no such longing to do the will of God.......
“There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God....There is none who does good, there is not even one".
Then Romans 3:11-2 & 18 says..........
"There is no fear of God before their eyes”.
Can you then see and understand that the conflict described in Romans 7 can only be true of a redeemed person????
Some say that Romans 7:14-25 describes Paul’s struggle before he was saved. But again, it is the mature Christian who possesses an honest self evaluation of himself. Isn't that exactly what Paul exhibited that in passages other than Romans 7.
To the Corinthians Paul said in 1 Corth. 15:9-10........
“I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am” .
Then in Ephesians 3:8 he said to the Ephesian Christians that he considered himself..............
"the very least of all saints.)
That 1 Corinthians was written before Ephesians shows he became more sensitive to sin as time went on. Although in our judgment Paul is the supreme man relative to other men, he saw himself as having fallen from the position of the least of the apostles to the least of all believers.
Then back to Romans 7 we see the terms Paul uses in Romans 7 are so precise that we can’t miss his struggle with sin. He states that he hates committing sin (v. 15), loves righteousness (vv. 19, 21), delights in the law of God from the bottom of his heart (v. 22), and thanks God for the deliverance that is his in Christ (v. 25). Those are the responses of a mature Christian.
Although Christians are not in the flesh, the flesh is still in us. Were no longer held captive to it, but we can still act fleshly or carnal.
In 1 Corinthians 3:1, 3 Paul says..............
“I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.…For you are still fleshly; for since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”.
He reproved the
Corinthian Christians for acting in a fleshly or non-Christian way.
1 Corinthians 15:53 & 57............
“For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality....Thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ”.
That is almost the same phrase Paul uses in
Romans 7:25 in reference to our bodily resurrection and glorification.
2 Corinthians 5:4...............
“While we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what immortal will be swallowed up by life” (v. 4).
Philippians 3:20-21............
“We eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory”.
Yet the battle goes on. We cry with Lord Tennyson, who wrote.........
“Ah for a new man to arise in me, that the man I am cease to be!” (
Maud, x. 5).
The battle won’t be over until Jesus gives us immortality. Full deliverance awaits glorification. But we can experience victory here and now in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Now you said that we
"must read the scripture as there written".
I have agreed with and given you a lot of Scriptures JUST AS THEY ARE WRITTEN. But you know what??????
They will not change one single mind!
My experience of over 50 years of doing this is that when someone is entrenched in what they believe truth is, no matter what is said, they will not budge even when the Scriptures stare them right in the face.
So having said all of this, I bid you a wonderful day tomorrow and encourage you to go to your church and give God all the praise and glory because He is worthy to be praised.