Learning Genesis

[TubbyTubby]

Tubster...I have a query but first consider this...

To know there is no God, one would have to know all things, because God could be within what they do not know. Even if one were to have all the knowledge and experience of 50% of the Brittanica, that would mean that there is 50% they cannot know nor have experienced. So to know God is not, one has to know all.

To know there is no God, one would have to be in all places simultaneously because God could only be revealing Himself in a place you are not.

You would have to have known all and been everywhere during all of the past, the present, and the future in case God was revealing Himself when you were not.

Finally, you would have to be aware of all that which is and/or has been known or experienced by all individuals of all times, in case He had revealed Himself to only certain peoples at certain times.

So in effect, to know there is no God, you would have to be omniscient, omnipresent, eternal, and present for any who may be able to receive illumination or revelation that God is. So to believe with conviction that there is no God, one then has to be exactly what is called God.

Now consider what is empirical evidence…

Empirical = based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic; originating in or based on observation or experience; relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory ; capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment.

So to believe there is no God one must be in denial of the empirical evidence of millions of people from every walk of life from every culture (both genders) and all different ages thoughout time. Do you deny all this empirical evidence? Many have seen Him (though you have not). Many have heard His voice (though you have not). Many have been transformed and forever changed (though not you). Prophecy rebukes the accusation from statistical probabilities (but you cannot see that many things have been prophesied that came to pass). Too many people have been healed to be blown off by the “mere coincidence “ argument. You can test Him and do what He says and see for yourself if you do not get the promised result (but you are afraid and like being your own lord). I could go on but you can see how absurd a position it is to believe with any conviction that God is not.

So if you are an honest agnostic, though I do not agree I can respect this, but if you are an Atheist then I must conclude you are assumptive at best or else delusional, but in no wise are you a rational being regardless of how many books you have read or what degree you may have.

So let me ask you straight forward so I know what kind of person we are dealing with…are you an agnostic, that admits there could be a God but you personally have no reason to believe, or are you an Atheist, who bases their beliefs on an unprovable universal negative?

Thanks…

brother Paul

I don't think I fit in with an agnostic view really so I guess that would make me atheist.

To form an argument that says I must be a non rational person from that statement is also assumptive don't you think?

I also don't need to be omniscient, omnipresent and eternal to dismiss the existence of something that has never demonstrated one tiny proof of itself. I place the thousands of gods through history in this category, as you probably do apart from just one of them.

Let's pick one from ancient Egyptian beliefs, Ra, the god of the sun. Do you believe in him? If not, why not? How do you know for certain that he doesn't exist?

 

[TubbyTubby]

Before I was christian, I didn't read the bible simply because it did not interest me and I thought it was baloney. ;-) I wasn't afraid. I don't think Tubby is either, are you Tubster?

Yes I would go along with that. I have never been exposed to the bible (or any religious writings for that matter).

 

[Silk]

I forgot already - you do know that agnostic means simply you are open minded to the possibility of God and atheist means you have ruled God's existence out altogether, right?

 

[TubbyTubby]

Now that presents a problem dosen't it???

Since you have read biology and philosophy and science books, so as to grow and improve your life, why in the would you not read the Bible?

Are you afraid that reading the Bible will cause you to accept the God of Creation who gave His Son to die for YOU that you might be saved from the judgment that is just over the hill top????

Are you comfortable with what you know and do not what to learn or grow any more in YOUR life???

Are you afraide you will be proven wrong and wind up a Christian nut case standing on the corner with a sign that says....
"THE END IS NEAR"?

I'm not afraid of literature Major, and if the bible convinced me that god exists then I would be unlikely to be a street corner preacher, just not my style.

I am completely comfortable in what I know but always learning.

 

[TubbyTubby]

I forgot already - you do know that agnostic means simply you are open minded to the possibility of God and atheist means you have ruled God's existence out altogether, right?

Yes, I don't subscribe to the belief in any gods.

 

[Silk]

If you are an atheist than why do you want to learn about Genesis? You can always take a course of the bible as lit at any college, at a guess. I took the bible as lit in college - totally different perspective and not of real interest here.

 

[HisManySongs]

9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.

So 3rd day we have earth and seas defined. Also grass, plants and trees are created. Do they grow from seed over time or is this interpreted as just appearing instantly?

In each case, when God said let there be ... it happened/appeared instantaneously.

 

[TubbyTubby]

In each case, when God said let there be ... it happened/appeared instantaneously.

Thank you.

 

[Mitspa]

Before I was christian, I didn't read the bible simply because it did not interest me and I thought it was baloney. ;-) I wasn't afraid. I don't think Tubby is either, are you Tubster?

Shame on you..

Me too, but it did interest me some...and a part of me knew it was true..but all the confusion made me a little afraid to dig too deep.

 

[Brother Paul]

I don't think I fit in with an agnostic view really so I guess that would make me atheist.

To form an argument that says I must be a non rational person from that statement is also assumptive don't you think?

I also don't need to be omniscient, omnipresent and eternal to dismiss the existence of something that has never demonstrated one tiny proof of itself. I place the thousands of gods through history in this category, as you probably do apart from just one of them.

Let's pick one from ancient Egyptian beliefs, Ra, the god of the sun. Do you believe in him? If not, why not? How do you know for certain that he doesn't exist?

No one can ever "prove" God according to evidence you will accept because it would be like trying to describe the outside of a box you have never been out of. Science after all is very limited in so many ways. I love it and it is very useful in better understanding the subtleties and complexities of this creation but it eensy weensy in its scope.

But thanks, now that I know you are an atheist I can stop wasting my time as I was once you (the first 30 years of my life) and know first hand this mindset refuses to accept the valid experience of others as an evidence (thus Atheism rests on non-empirical assumption based conclusions...like for example abiogenesis)...if 20 people saw a giraffe running in central park, because you never had the experience is meaningless. The event having passed cannot be tested any further but that cannot negate the reality of it. But if 100s 0r 1,000s had the same experience and we found that years before it happened it was told it would and then it did, one should no longer have any reason to just exclude the possibility. This is why I can respect and agnostic because they do not exclude any possibility while admitting they have no reason they know of to believe something they have not experienced or have no knowledge of. And yes, I do believe to be an Atheist one must be at least assumptive, because they place their faith in so many things they have no evidence for at all, yet criticise others who have far more evidence (just none they will accept).

 

[MichaelH]

Yes, I don't subscribe to the belief in any gods.

What page you on? Your still reading right?

 

[Silk]

Well, in my experience, if you ask God to show you - He will. You have to look for the answer because it may be subtle or not what you expect. I agree, if one never asks - it is totally assumptive.

 

[TubbyTubby]

No one can ever "prove" God according to evidence you will accept because it would be like trying to describe the outside of a box you have never been out of. Science after all is very limited in so many ways. I love it and it is very useful in better understanding the subtleties and complexities of this creation but it eensy weensy in its scope.

But thanks, now that I know you are an atheist I can stop wasting my time as I was once you (the first 30 years of my life) and know first hand this mindset refuses to accept the valid experience of others as an evidence (thus Atheism rests on non-empirical assumption based conclusions...like for example abiogenesis)...if 20 people saw a giraffe running in central park, because you never had the experience is meaningless. The event having passed cannot be tested any further but that cannot negate the reality of it. But if 100s 0r 1,000s had the same experience and we found that years before it happened it was told it would and then it did, one should no longer have any reason to just exclude the possibility. This is why I can respect and agnostic because they do not exclude any possibility while admitting they have no reason they know of to believe something they have not experienced or have no knowledge of. And yes, I do believe to be an Atheist one must be at least assumptive, because they place their faith in so many things they have no evidence for at all, yet criticise others who have far more evidence (just none they will accept).

Before you finish with me Brother Paul would you be kind enough to answer my question please.

If you don't believe in the sun god Ra, how do you absolutely know he doesn't exist?

 

[KingJ]

Tubby we find the one true God by looking at Jesus. It is as simple as that.

Have you never considered these facts?

1. Jewish history = OT = Jews chosen and protected by God for the world to receive Jesus. No sane person can dispute God's involvement in their history. http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology.htm.

2. The impact Jesus's teaching had on the world. No human could do likewise http://www.thesacredpage.com/2008/04/napoleons-proof-for-divinity-of-jesus.html. Not to mention Jesus's teaching defied the norm 'turn the left cheek and then some' .

Jesus was either mad, a liar or what He said was true. Nobody would give their lives on the cross for people who hated them if they were .... mad or a liar. Think about it.

If the OT is not Jewish history, then what is? If it is, then there is no denying the reason (Jesus) God protected / got involved in their lives. They have records of many prophets with great power visiting / guiding them.

I always quote James 2:19 and Rom 1:20 to atheists. It is the reason God will not fall on your lap / jump through your hoops / come to you on your terms. Follow James 4:8 and you will find God. He is not far from you Rev 3:20. His terms are not unreasonable Psalm 51:17, James 4:6.

 

[TubbyTubby]

So to believe there is no God one must be in denial of the empirical evidence of millions of people from every walk of life from every culture (both genders) and all different ages thoughout time. Do you deny all this empirical evidence? Many have seen Him (though you have not). Many have heard His voice (though you have not). Many have been transformed and forever changed (though not you). Prophecy rebukes the accusation from statistical probabilities (but you cannot see that many things have been prophesied that came to pass). Too many people have been healed to be blown off by the “mere coincidence “ argument. You can test Him and do what He says and see for yourself if you do not get the promised result (but you are afraid and like being your own lord). I could go on but you can see how absurd a position it is to believe with any conviction that God is not.

I see where you are coming from here, because millions of people believe in god then it must be true and I must take their word for it.

However, millions of people (in fact one could argue almost the whole world population at the time) believed in 1543 that the sun orbited the earth. Only one living man at that time, Nicolaus Copernicus, dared to suggest otherwise. His writings turned out to be true so the argument that mass belief qualifies something as true without question doesn't hold with me as Copernicus triggered a mass change in understanding our Solar system mechanics.

 

[Major]

I'm not afraid of literature Major, and if the bible convinced me that god exists then I would be unlikely to be a street corner preacher, just not my style.

I am completely comfortable in what I know but always learning.

I here what you are saying but the fact that you will not read the thing you condemn/question actually elimnates you from aking those questions, dosen't it????

It is your responsibuility to read and understand what you are rejecting before you can reject it.

It is just like saying that I do not like to eat shrimp, but the fact is I have never eaten any shrimp to know one way or the other.

IMHO your concerns and questions would have a lot more validity if you had read the Bible then objected to that which you read. Now that makes perfect sense to an country boy like me.

 

[Major]

Before I was christian, I didn't read the bible simply because it did not interest me and I thought it was baloney. ;-) I wasn't afraid. I don't think Tubby is either, are you Tubster?

God morning Allie, are you well?

But, allow me to ask you...........were you an ATHIEST as he claims to be?

Were you on a Christian web site asking questions and pointing out concerns about something you did not know anything about?

What tubby is doing, and I am not demeaning what is going on by the way, only pointing out the need to have an understanding about the thing you are rejecting.

It reminds me Cliff Claven on the TV series..."Cheers".

 

[KingJ]

I see where you are coming from here, because millions of people believe in god then it must be true and I must take their word for it.

However, millions of people (in fact one could argue almost the whole world population at the time) believed in 1543 that the sun orbited the earth. Only one living man at that time, Nicolaus Copernicus, dared to suggest otherwise. His writings turned out to be true so the argument that mass belief qualifies something as true without question doesn't hold with me as Copernicus triggered a mass change in understanding our Solar system mechanics.

You are paralleling a candy bar to a camel sized cactus and swallowing it with ease.

 

[TubbyTubby]

You are paralleling a candy bar to a camel sized cactus and swallowing it with ease.

I like your analogy.

I was making a point that millions of people CAN be wrong about accepted belief, the enormity of the premise I think was almost as grand (heliocentricity vs god).

 

[Brother Paul]

Before you finish with me Brother Paul would you be kind enough to answer my question please.

If you don't believe in the sun god Ra, how do you absolutely know he doesn't exist?

Man who rejects the possibility of God or the knowledge of Him will (being his own lord) always set something up to worship or exalt. Whether it is in the image of creature, someone's philosophy, or even things they know to be effectual like a volcanoe, or the Sun, or something else less than nature. Regardless of experiences like those super or supra-natural things I actually experienced (not crazy, never been superstitious, nor on drugs) that totally tore down my Atheist/agnostic whole life and made me reconsider other realities and dimensions (even Quantum physics is going here)...I sought answers...first in the real actual occult (because in my heart I still refused to accept a real God) and there I saw many wonderous things that my limited science box could not account for.

Yes, my other Atheist and agnostic friends called me a liar or said I was crazy but they were wrong, plain and simple, I know what I saw and experienced and so many others have testified of the same (some of them brilliant men and women with degrees in all sorts of fields). The Sun definitely has an effect on the world...it is essential....it affects people and causes growth and provides light and warmth, etc., so why would these self lords (refusing to here the wisdom of the real and living God) not see this as worthy to worship...

Today we have self lords worshipping the failed neo-Darwinian perspective, others money, others a sports or entertainment hero but mostly they worship self.

False gods like RA and many others have no personal effectualness their personality as assigned...they have no foresight, no power, and cannot effect change in one's nature. THE God is not something less than, in, or equal to nature....He is outside of nature...but yet is personal and communicates with people. His word is consistent to all and His faithfulness is attested to by millions who have sincerely ventured on this path. As vehement ex-Atheist C. S. Lewis once said, "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.”