Doctrinal Authority

[Major]

OK, so you read as "Being Santified by the Coveant" Is not someone really "Saved" if they leave.

The other thought is that a person would have to be completly insane to want to leave, so could not have been in their right mind to start.

Then John warns about the same thing........ Leaving for another god (Idol)

ummm........... I don't know Major. One has to wonder if a person can start out with full open Heart for God, then can it be possible for the enemy to slowly lead them right out of the pen.

Even the younger son that left, God said they were dead, but now found. I know believers can leave off to do their own thing, that does not make them believers anymore, just disobedient children. Still, what does God mean by dead............ Can't be a good thing.

I'll just have to conclude that you see horse, and I see a zebra instead. They look alike, just differnt color.

If we both ministered together the message would be the same........ Don't leave God, don't look at Allah as He is no god. We know that doing so, does not end well. Just how bad it ends, will be different.

Be blessed.

Why do you get to be the Zebra????? I like colors toooooo!

 

[Leemg]

Ah, as the flesh will pull to do bad things and over eat, it can be made subject to the spirit man through the Holy Spirit and the Old man can be kept locked in the box. It's like a weight we have to drag around and make sure He don't get out.

When Adam sinned in the Garden of Eden not only did he sin against God but also the Spirit of iniquity (the body of sin) captured the conscience of man and began to dwell in him. Man’s entire being was now a slave to sin in all his members. The Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Christ was the only one who had the power to deliver mankind from this body of sin. And He did just that.

The Father did not neglect the flesh in the salvation process. He knew that the Law of Sin and Death working in our members would once again bring us into captivity.

Colossians 2:11-12 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

As it relates to salvation, we erred when we saw the regeneration of the new man only from within. Circumcision in the natural is a cutting away of the foreskin from the male genitals. Spiritual circumcision is also a cutting away, a sanctifying and cleansing of the flesh. It is an operation of God in which He cut away or removed from us the dominion of sin. It is God who enabled us to put off the body of sin.

The sin issue was dealt with at salvation. God removed the dominion of sin in the baptism into Christ and we rose in the body of Christ. The truth is if sin is an issue, it is because we, as Sons of God, make a conscious decision to sin against the Father. We do this in spite of the great love and mercy He has shown us. We sin by 'choice'...not because of any captivity. We have no excuse and cannot continue to blame the devil or this flesh.

 

[Leemg]

OK! IMO, it says
We cannot loose what God gives and protects, and no power in this world or eternity can take from us what GOD gave. BUT, We are and were created free moral agents. Only by our free will can WE REJECT GOD. And thus reject salvation. It was our choice to accept Grace and can be our choice to turn from it.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Not SINLESS PERFECTION but JUSTIFIED INNOCENT IN CHRIST!
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Ah but Paul declares that we were sanctified wholly or completely, body soul and spirit. I Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you WHOLLY; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (preserved: To keep in perfect/unaltered condition; maintain unchanged.) This is only possible if you have been born of God and raised a New Man in Christ - which is the true process of Salvation. Raising one's hand to accept Christ is not salvation. Salvation is an operation of the Holy Spirit.

From the time we are born-again until the return of Jesus, our body, soul and spirit should be free from sin. Many contend that this is an impossibility. We have to decide what we are going to believe, the scriptures or the philosophy of men. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Romans 8:3). The finished work of Christ condemned sin in the flesh.

He did not raise us at salvation with a corrupted body that was still able to hold us captive. He raised a complete New Man. Scripture tells us we are "Complete in Christ". A holy temple. That is why He can say, anyone who defiles this temple He will destroy. True Sons of God sin by choice. Living holy is not an option. It is our reasonable service. The Lord would not tell us to be holy if He knew our bodies were incapable of doing so.

Of course "if" we sin, we have an advocate - our Lord Jesus and if we repent and turn away and get back to walking in the Spirit, then there is no condemnation! Praise God!

 

[By Faith]

Why do you get to be the Zebra????? I like colors toooooo!

I Suppose I have to come up with scriptures that prove I get the Zebra. That will be another 6 pages of debate, but I am up for it.
I can't find Zebra in my concordance though, so you just might get the Zebra.

Ah but Paul declares that we were sanctified wholly or completely, body soul and spirit. I Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you WHOLLY; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (preserved: To keep in perfect/unaltered condition; maintain unchanged.) This is only possible if you have been born of God and raised a New Man in Christ - which is the true process of Salvation. Raising one's hand to accept Christ is not salvation. Salvation is an operation of the Holy Spirit.

From the time we are born-again until the return of Jesus, our body, soul and spirit should be free from sin. Many contend that this is an impossibility. We have to decide what we are going to believe, the scriptures or the philosophy of men. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Romans 8:3). The finished work of Christ condemned sin in the flesh.

He did not raise us at salvation with a corrupted body that was still able to hold us captive. He raised a complete New Man. Scripture tells us we are "Complete in Christ". A holy temple. That is why He can say, anyone who defiles this temple He will destroy. True Sons of God sin by choice. Living holy is not an option. It is our reasonable service. The Lord would not tell us to be holy if He knew our bodies were incapable of doing so.

Of course "if" we sin, we have an advocate - our Lord Jesus and if we repent and turn away and get back to walking in the Spirit, then there is no condemnation! Praise God!

That is what I have been saying. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, the body can be kept in subjection to the things of the Sprit and (spirit-man)

A starved spirit will allow the flesh to run rampant though and the old man stalk the streets.

There is a type of doctrine I have heard that believes we can't stop sinning or have no ability not to sin. Not sure what the doctrine is called, but run into it.

Our body was bought and paid for with a price, it is not our own but we be good stewards of it. That means keeping the flesh under subjection though the tools given.

 

[Leemg]

I Suppose I have to come up with scriptures that prove I get the Zebra. That will be another 6 pages of debate, but I am up for it.
I can't find Zebra in my concordance though, so you just might get the Zebra.



That is what I have been saying. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, the body can be kept in subjection to the things of the Sprit and (spirit-man)

A starved spirit will allow the flesh to run rampant though and the old man stalk the streets.

There is a type of doctrine I have heard that believes we can't stop sinning or have no ability not to sin. Not sure what the doctrine is called, but run into it.

Our body was bought and paid for with a price, it is not our own but we be good stewards of it. That means keeping the flesh under subjection though the tools given.

Amen Faith. Tradition told us we could never be holy and would always sin as long as we lived in these bodies of flesh. The general consensus was that the flesh was sinful and sooner or later it would cause us to sin against God. And, we believed this. Our Father did not neglect the flesh in the salvation process. He knew that the Law of Sin and Death working in our members would once again bring us into captivity.

That false doctrine I believe is called "DUAL NATURE". It teaches that a born again son of God has 2 natures. A sin nature and divine nature all wrapped up in the temple of God. This is not only a false teaching but according to scripture it is an impossibility. According to scripture the old man is dead. Many christians keep trying to dig up that old man but you can't because he is dead and gone. We have used this dual nature doctrine to give ourselves an excuse for sin. The truth is that when we sin after salvation, it is by "choice". No devil made us do it, nor any fleshy body. The body of sin (sin nature) was destroyed by Christ's completed work. We are under NO captivity to any flesh or anybody. By saying we are, we undermine the work of the cross. True christians (who have been born again of Christ's Spirit) have only ONE NATURE. We are partakers of God's holy nature. God would never share His temple with the spirit of iniquity. He raised us up at salvation complete in Christ....body, soul and spirit and we are told we can preserve it blameless onto Christ's coming by walking in the Spirit.

 

[By Faith]

Amen Faith. Tradition told us we could never be holy and would always sin as long as we lived in these bodies of flesh. The general consensus was that the flesh was sinful and sooner or later it would cause us to sin against God. And, we believed this. Our Father did not neglect the flesh in the salvation process. He knew that the Law of Sin and Death working in our members would once again bring us into captivity.

That false doctrine I believe is called "DUAL NATURE". It teaches that a born again son of God has 2 natures. A sin nature and divine nature all wrapped up in the temple of God. This is not only a false teaching but according to scripture it is an impossibility. According to scripture the old man is dead. Many christians keep trying to dig up that old man but you can't because he is dead and gone. We have used this dual nature doctrine to give ourselves an excuse for sin. The truth is that when we sin after salvation, it is by "choice". No devil made us do it, nor any fleshy body. The body of sin (sin nature) was destroyed by Christ's completed work. We are under NO captivity to any flesh or anybody. By saying we are, we undermine the work of the cross. True christians (who have been born again of Christ's Spirit) have only ONE NATURE. We are partakers of God's holy nature. God would never share His temple with the spirit of iniquity. He raised us up at salvation complete in Christ....body, soul and spirit and we are told we can preserve it blameless onto Christ's coming by walking in the Spirit.

Ah, Duel nature. Thank you. We are drawn away and enticed by the lust of "OUR" flesh. I believe the whole spirit, soul and body can be santified through the Power of the Word and help from the Holy Spirit to be fit to do the Masters work.

Now watching my Church In Sarasota the Greater faith meeting by Keith Moore. Wish I was there. He was suppose to be taking about believing God, but I guess He let Brother Copeland sing and Someone got healed Brother Copeland pointed out then someone else and................ Well, Praise God for that, but was waiting on hearing the Word, and you don't stop the Holy Spirit to keep your scheduale.

Anyway, we are told the Word can save our soul, but we must recieve it with meekness.

Be blessed.

 

[CCW95A]

I should not say that Mark 4 has "NOTHING IN the World to do with aionios Zoe................ Lots to do with Salvation (healed delivered)

The Parable is........... The Sower sows the Word.
It goes through how Satan can make the Word of God inefective in our life.
Those that produced fruit, but their own things (Greek for Lust) entered in and chocked the Word. Satan could not jsut steal it, Could not just show them an evil report for the Word sake and they gave up (Offended) but could introduce what looked like good things, and pull them away form the Word.

Some though produced 30,60, 100 fold........... According the measure they gave. The Word produced faith and it starts by planting the seed, like a small mustard seed. By giving measure to what you hear, more is given, God gives the increase and that mustard seed grows into a big tree that provides protection....... (The birds can hang out in)

ya, it could be for eternal life, but Jesu said these things are done in parable and only those who have ears to hear will understand. there are lots of parables that cover lots of things.

The sower that sows the Word is the master Parable, for Jesus said if you don't know this, how will you know "ALL" parables.

This is why I don't care for OSAS type doctrines, Trinity Doctrins, the suffering for Jesus doctrines, and the list is long.

These doctines make folks think all the scriptures refer to "THEIR" doctrine they are stuck in.

Like the guy who tried to tell us to keep the Sabbath.......... Everything in scripture looked like it was telling us to keep the Sabbath to him. Poor soul........... confused.

What did Jesus say to those that cast out devils and performed mighty works in his name but did not have good fruit...........

I don't have a doctrine that we can just "loose" our salvation........ So I never mentioned that scripture to make my point as many do who try to combat the OSAS doctrine.

It looks like a good one for those who don't believe in OSAS, but it has nothing to do with Eternal Life in God.

We have some folks that operated in the Holhy Spirit, they did might works based on a free gift. It's clear they had been saved, a only folks who can call God father can ask for the Holy Spirit to do such works. They did their own thing and worked iniquity.

Anomia means to work without law, or ignorant of.......... Violation of law.

They operated in the Holy Spirit, without any thought to the plan of God and did their own thing without direction. It could be evil things, or it could be good without considering what God wanted.

Jesus said these folks will not rule in Heaven or have a place to rule. Depart from me, I don't know you.

Jesus never said anything about not being Born again, or having to go to Hell.

Now we can comapre I don't know you to Jesus not confessing us before His father and angels in Rev, and blotting out our name from the book of Life, or we can compare that their works were burned up by fire but they were saved as if by fire.

This is why there is so much contention about the OSAS doctrine, because I can counter it or defend it depending on which way you want to go.

What is clear though. Those that have tasted the good things to come have been santified by the Holy Spirit and decided to walk away from that after knowing the truth. There is no more sacrifice remaining for them. Man has a choice to not want the free gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus, to sever another god.

Be blessed...........

I am sure you can agree that without the Word of God as the "seed", nobody can receive eternal life, for it is the seed that gives life. As it is clearly stated in this scripture that can never be refuted.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The "danger zone" is after the Word has been planted in the heart of a person, and up to the time that "seed" produces its first fruit, which is the new birth.
Anytime between the planting and the fruit coming forth is the time in which Satan can steal the Word. Why would he do that,? Because he does not want the "seed" to produce it's fruit. Satan uses many things in this world in an attempt to stop the seed from bringing forth it's fruit. These are all described in the parable of the sower.

#1 The deceitfulness of riches.
#2 the Cares of this world.
#3 the lusts of other things.
#4 Tribulation.
#5 Persecution.
#6 Becoming offended.

You are assuming that those depicted in this parable as being fruitful and some how they became unfruitful, or they stated out producing good fruits, and are now producing bad fruit. This is a spiritual impossibility. There is no such a things as someone producing good fruits and then producing bad fruits as Jesus told us, "A good tree can not produce bad fruit, neither can a bad tree produce good fruit." If there was anything we learned from the Book of Genesis, is that seeds produce after their own kind. The Word of God which is the seed that brings forth the fruit and not the man in whom it was planted.
God is the one who produces the fruit as the seed which is the Word is God!!! Contained within every fruit that the seed produces is more seed that then again produces even more fruit. You can not stop the Word from producing once it blooms. There is no one in the parable of the sower who ever produced its fruit and then stopped, or started producing bad fruit. There is no middle ground, you are either bringing forth good fruit and or bad fruit, there is no gray area where nothing is being produced.

Those who claimed to do mighty works in which Jesus tells them, "I NEVER knew you.." He did not say "well I did know at one time, but then you really went astray..." These people were never a part of God's Church, but they thought they were!!! Their problem was they thought they were suppose to do these works, which is not true. Man's only "work" is to believe the truth, and God's "work" is to perform the "works" based on their faith. These people said, "Did WE not......" The only thing "we" can do is "iniquity", which is what they were doing. You see Brother, God does not need our help for anything, but we are the ones that need his help for everything.

 

[CCW95A]

Amen Faith. Tradition told us we could never be holy and would always sin as long as we lived in these bodies of flesh. The general consensus was that the flesh was sinful and sooner or later it would cause us to sin against God. And, we believed this. Our Father did not neglect the flesh in the salvation process. He knew that the Law of Sin and Death working in our members would once again bring us into captivity.

That false doctrine I believe is called "DUAL NATURE". It teaches that a born again son of God has 2 natures. A sin nature and divine nature all wrapped up in the temple of God. This is not only a false teaching but according to scripture it is an impossibility. According to scripture the old man is dead. Many christians keep trying to dig up that old man but you can't because he is dead and gone. We have used this dual nature doctrine to give ourselves an excuse for sin. The truth is that when we sin after salvation, it is by "choice". No devil made us do it, nor any fleshy body. The body of sin (sin nature) was destroyed by Christ's completed work. We are under NO captivity to any flesh or anybody. By saying we are, we undermine the work of the cross. True christians (who have been born again of Christ's Spirit) have only ONE NATURE. We are partakers of God's holy nature. God would never share His temple with the spirit of iniquity. He raised us up at salvation complete in Christ....body, soul and spirit and we are told we can preserve it blameless onto Christ's coming by walking in the Spirit.

Brother, If Jesus only had "one" nature, then it would have been impossible for Jesus to ever be tempted to sin! As it is written "God can not be tempted with evil..."(James 1:13). Jesus was never tempted in his "divine nature" as that is a impossible situation. That would mean Jesus had a unfair advantage over us, when scripture tells us Jesus was tempted in the same way we are. Jesus had a "human nature", and he had a "divine nature" this is why Jesus was all man and all God, a God man. When Jesus was tempted he was only tempted in his "human nature", because that was the only part of Jesus that could be tempted to sin. When we are tempted to sin, we also are tempted in our human nature, because Christ in us can never be tempted to sin. As it is written....

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

That which is "common" to man is his "human nature"

 

[By Faith]

I am sure you can agree that without the Word of God as the "seed", nobody can receive eternal life, for it is the seed that gives life. As it is clearly stated in this scripture that can never be refuted.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The "danger zone" is after the Word has been planted in the heart of a person, and up to the time that "seed" produces its first fruit, which is the new birth.
Anytime between the planting and the fruit coming forth is the time in which Satan can steal the Word. Why would he do that,? Because he does not want the "seed" to produce it's fruit. Satan uses many things in this world in an attempt to stop the seed from bringing forth it's fruit. These are all described in the parable of the sower.

#1 The deceitfulness of riches.
#2 the Cares of this world.
#3 the lusts of other things.
#4 Tribulation.
#5 Persecution.
#6 Becoming offended.

You are assuming that those depicted in this parable as being fruitful and some how they became unfruitful, or they stated out producing good fruits, and are now producing bad fruit. This is a spiritual impossibility. There is no such a things as someone producing good fruits and then producing bad fruits as Jesus told us, "A good tree can not produce bad fruit, neither can a bad tree produce good fruit." If there was anything we learned from the Book of Genesis, is that seeds produce after their own kind. The Word of God which is the seed that brings forth the fruit and not the man in whom it was planted.
God is the one who produces the fruit as the seed which is the Word is God!!! Contained within every fruit that the seed produces is more seed that then again produces even more fruit. You can not stop the Word from producing once it blooms. There is no one in the parable of the sower who ever produced its fruit and then stopped, or started producing bad fruit. There is no middle ground, you are either bringing forth good fruit and or bad fruit, there is no gray area where nothing is being produced.

Those who claimed to do mighty works in which Jesus tells them, "I NEVER knew you.." He did not say "well I did know at one time, but then you really went astray..." These people were never a part of God's Church, but they thought they were!!! Their problem was they thought they were suppose to do these works, which is not true. Man's only "work" is to believe the truth, and God's "work" is to perform the "works" based on their faith. These people said, "Did WE not......" The only thing "we" can do is "iniquity", which is what they were doing. You see Brother, God does not need our help for anything, but we are the ones that need his help for everything.

I don't want to go over the parable again.

Look at the parable as Word produces. Produces what?
The Word produces much more than just someone getting born again.

The amount of what the Word produces, is according to the measure given.

Some 30, 60, 100 fold.

The word is like someone that plants corn, it grows He knows not how, but first the stock, then the ear and corn. Then the man harvest what the Word produced.

The word is like the grain of a mustard seed, it's sown the smallest of all herb seeds but when it is grown it provides protection.

When asked to increase their faith, Jesus said.......... Plant the seed, for if you have faith the grain of a mustard seed, you should say unto this tree be plucked up by the roots and cast in the sea and it shall obey you.

So........

Mar 4:21-24 kjva 21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

NO, the candle we meant to be placed out to give light. It's designed for a candlestick, not designed for under the bed.

22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad. 23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

We know what the candle represents, we know the unsaved are not that candle, and don't continue to gain knowledge and faith.

24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

What you give heed to, is measured back. More shall be given if you take heed.

This is not God just growing fruit for you. This is you taking heed to what you hear and giving a measure to it.

In fact, the Word is part of producing good fruit of the Spirit, but the Sower sows the Word is about "Things" the Word produces. It's not talking about the type of fruit Jesus said you know them by. That would be the Fruit of the Spirit, for no man need to teach us Love but God teaches, and The love of God is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Spirit.

How do we know we are born of God? For we "LOVE" our brothers. Produce fruit, which is faithfulness, patience, Love, Joy, Hope.

Nothing to do with Mark 4, but sowing the Word and giving measure.

....................................................
Mat 7:22-23 kjva 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out
devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Did Jesus say.......... No you did not cast out devils?

NO, Jesus did not, He said you work iniquity and casting out devils is something that "HAD" done. They were trying to base their right standing on their using the free gifts of the Holy Spirit.

It's not faith, it's not using the gifts, but it's the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Peace, love, Joy, Longsuffering, so on....

You have to be saved to operate in those gifts. For Jesus said, How much more will your "FATHER IN HEAVEN" give the Holy Spirit to those that ask him?

If they lied about casting out devils.............. then Jesus would have busted them out on that.

 

[CCW95A]

I don't want to go over the parable again.

Look at the parable as Word produces. Produces what?
The Word produces much more than just someone getting born again.

The amount of what the Word produces, is according to the measure given.

Some 30, 60, 100 fold.

The word is like someone that plants corn, it grows He knows not how, but first the stock, then the ear and corn. Then the man harvest what the Word produced.

The word is like the grain of a mustard seed, it's sown the smallest of all herb seeds but when it is grown it provides protection.

When asked to increase their faith, Jesus said.......... Plant the seed, for if you have faith the grain of a mustard seed, you should say unto this tree be plucked up by the roots and cast in the sea and it shall obey you.

So........

Mar 4:21-24 kjva 21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

NO, the candle we meant to be placed out to give light. It's designed for a candlestick, not designed for under the bed.

22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad. 23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

We know what the candle represents, we know the unsaved are not that candle, and don't continue to gain knowledge and faith.

24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

What you give heed to, is measured back. More shall be given if you take heed.

This is not God just growing fruit for you. This is you taking heed to what you hear and giving a measure to it.

In fact, the Word is part of producing good fruit of the Spirit, but the Sower sows the Word is about "Things" the Word produces. It's not talking about the type of fruit Jesus said you know them by. That would be the Fruit of the Spirit, for no man need to teach us Love but God teaches, and The love of God is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Spirit.

How do we know we are born of God? For we "LOVE" our brothers. Produce fruit, which is faithfulness, patience, Love, Joy, Hope.

Nothing to do with Mark 4, but sowing the Word and giving measure.

....................................................
Mat 7:22-23 kjva 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out
devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Did Jesus say.......... No you did not cast out devils?

NO, Jesus did not, He said you work iniquity and casting out devils is something that "HAD" done. They were trying to base their right standing on their using the free gifts of the Holy Spirit.

It's not faith, it's not using the gifts, but it's the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Peace, love, Joy, Longsuffering, so on....

You have to be saved to operate in those gifts. For Jesus said, How much more will your "FATHER IN HEAVEN" give the Holy Spirit to those that ask him?

If they lied about casting out devils.............. then Jesus would have busted them out on that.

Brother, what is the purpose of "hearing the Word of the Kingdom"? Jesus said....

Mat 13:18 "Hear then the parable of the sower:
Mat 13:19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.

Hearing the Word of the Kingdom is for one purpose only, for salvation!!! Sowing the Word is for proclaiming the Kingdom of God so people can be saved. The entire parable shows how people respond to the Gospel of their salvation, and in how they miss it.

Nobody, I mean nobody uses the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit uses people, not people using the Holy Spirit. It is as the Spirit wills, not as when man wills. The gifts of the Holy Spirit is not a set of "utilities" like a "leather man tool" that we just flip out when ever we want them.

 

[By Faith]

Jesus said you should lay hands on the sick............. "Who does?"
They begain to speak in tongues.......... "Who begain speaking?"

Call the elders of the church so they may pray, and the prayer of faith shall heal the sick.......... "who has to pray?"

Nobody, I mean nobody uses the Holy Spirit.

1Co 14:29-32 20cNT 29 Of preachers two or three should speak, and the rest should weigh well what is said. 30 But, if some revelation is made to another person as he sits there, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all preach in turn, so that all may learn some lesson and all receive encouragement. 32 (The spirit that moves the preachers is within the preachers’ control;

Rom 12:6 kjva Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

As the Spirit gives to each man gifts so that man can prophet, who is in control? According to a portion of what?

What causes that portion? Hint Rom 10:17

Brother, what is the purpose of "hearing the Word of the Kingdom"? Jesus said....

Salvation, you got that part Right........ To be healed, Saved from enemies.

The Kingdom of God is what? Just getting saved?

Luk 11:20 kjva But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Seems to produce faith to cast out devils with the power to back it.

Act 14:9-10 kjva 9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, 10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

You don't suppose Paul was preaching the Word of God that day do you? He might have been taking about how Burger King is better than Wendy's and that somehow caused the man to get faith to be healed. Had to be.

It starts with................

Mar 4:14 kjva The sower soweth the word. The Master parable of the Kingdom (Rule with and of) God.

Rom 1:16 kjva For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel of What? Does what? That spelled like the Kingdom of God? They spelled the same?

NOBODY is 30 FOLD SAVED............ NOBODY. But someone can ony have 30 fold of the Word producing in their life................ by what measure they give.

Is being born again a process............ Well, I have 30 fold saved in me, but the rest of me, not so much. Just a fraction of being born again. yea, only some things become new to me, not "ALL" things since I am only producing 30 fold Born again stuff here............ yea.............

Brother, with all respect. Your not seeing a whole lot of things here and only looking at scripture through some twisted doctrine. It could be you need to learn more, I don't know but it's hard to explain while on a forum setting because we have to go back and look at this and that.

Nobody who is not saved has any ability to cast out any devil. Those men whom Jesus did not know, He knew. Started out good, operated in the gifts but

Mat 7:21 kjva Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The problem is, they did not do the will of God but did their own thing. That is the problem. Like many believers today.

Eph 5:17 kjva Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

You suppose this scripture and many others are in there because everyone saved is doing the will of God?

Anyway..........

Gospel of Christ, Kingdom of God, Wendy's...... all the same I guess.

 

[Leemg]

Brother, If Jesus only had "one" nature, then it would have been impossible for Jesus to ever be tempted to sin! As it is written "God can not be tempted with evil..."(James 1:13). Jesus was never tempted in his "divine nature" as that is a impossible situation. That would mean Jesus had a unfair advantage over us, when scripture tells us Jesus was tempted in the same way we are. Jesus had a "human nature", and he had a "divine nature" this is why Jesus was all man and all God, a God man. When Jesus was tempted he was only tempted in his "human nature", because that was the only part of Jesus that could be tempted to sin. When we are tempted to sin, we also are tempted in our human nature, because Christ in us can never be tempted to sin. As it is written....

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

That which is "common" to man is his "human nature"

I never said what you are inferring. Of course Jesus was human and divine. And of course Jesus could sin. What made Him different was He CHOSE not to sin. He had no SIN NATURE. He was the first of many brethren. As He is, so are we now in this world.

The "DUAL NATURE" doctrine teaches that a born again son of God has 2 natures. A sin nature and divine nature all wrapped up in the temple of God. This is not only a false teaching but according to scripture it is an impossibility. According to scripture the old man is dead. Many christians keep trying to dig up that old man but you can't because he is dead and gone. We have used this dual nature doctrine to give ourselves an excuse for sin. The truth is that when we sin after salvation, it is by "choice". No devil made us do it, nor any fleshy body. The body of sin (sin nature) was destroyed by Christ's completed work. We are under NO captivity to any flesh or anybody. By saying we are, we undermine the work of the cross. True christians (who have been born again of Christ's Spirit) have only ONE NATURE. We are partakers of God's holy nature. God would never share His temple with the spirit of iniquity. He raised us up at salvation complete in Christ....body, soul and spirit and we are told we can preserve it blameless onto Christ's coming by walking in the Spirit.

 

[By Faith]

I never said what you are inferring. Of course Jesus was human and divine. And of course Jesus could sin. What made Him different was He CHOSE not to sin. He had no SIN NATURE. He was the first of many brethren. As He is, so are we now in this world.

The "DUAL NATURE" doctrine teaches that a born again son of God has 2 natures. A sin nature and divine nature all wrapped up in the temple of God. This is not only a false teaching but according to scripture it is an impossibility. According to scripture the old man is dead. Many christians keep trying to dig up that old man but you can't because he is dead and gone. We have used this dual nature doctrine to give ourselves an excuse for sin. The truth is that when we sin after salvation, it is by "choice". No devil made us do it, nor any fleshy body. The body of sin (sin nature) was destroyed by Christ's completed work. We are under NO captivity to any flesh or anybody. By saying we are, we undermine the work of the cross. True christians (who have been born again of Christ's Spirit) have only ONE NATURE. We are partakers of God's holy nature. God would never share His temple with the spirit of iniquity. He raised us up at salvation complete in Christ....body, soul and spirit and we are told we can preserve it blameless onto Christ's coming by walking in the Spirit.

Thank you for helping. How can we see the same things, and yet others can't? Below is not for you, but read I just don't want to repost, and why others don't see this, line upon line. we compare scriptures. Could that be the issue?

Clearing up Depart from me you workers of Iniquity:

Mat 7:21-22 kjva 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Do the unsaved cast out devils? NO
Do they speak prophecy? NO

What are these folks in trouble for? Not doing the will of God.

Do the unsaved care about the will of God? NO

Is commiting sins of not doing God's will (iniquity Life without law) going to get a unsaved person being told to depart from Jesus?
NO!!!! Jesus came to save those that oppose themselves.......

What sin is it the unsaved commits?

Joh 16:9 kjva Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Mar 16:16 kjva He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Joh 3:18 kjva He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So, is Jesus telling the Workers of iniquity (Failing God's will) to depart because they are not saved? NO

What would Jesus say to someone who never knew Him as Lord, and lived a sinful life away from God.........

You think He tell them to depart..............

What would Jesus tell a servant who did know him, did operate in the gifts but would never get in the plan and will of God. They come to him trying to pass in because they did some works in His name..

So, these workers were saved, were producing fruit at one time and just like King Saul, whom God anointed to be king and choose, would not obey God.

I don't know of any other way to explain this. I have taken many different approaches, because I understand what it says with no doctrine in my way.

 

[Major]

Amen Faith. Tradition told us we could never be holy and would always sin as long as we lived in these bodies of flesh. The general consensus was that the flesh was sinful and sooner or later it would cause us to sin against God. And, we believed this. Our Father did not neglect the flesh in the salvation process. He knew that the Law of Sin and Death working in our members would once again bring us into captivity.

That false doctrine I believe is called "DUAL NATURE". It teaches that a born again son of God has 2 natures. A sin nature and divine nature all wrapped up in the temple of God. This is not only a false teaching but according to scripture it is an impossibility. According to scripture the old man is dead. Many christians keep trying to dig up that old man but you can't because he is dead and gone. We have used this dual nature doctrine to give ourselves an excuse for sin. The truth is that when we sin after salvation, it is by "choice". No devil made us do it, nor any fleshy body. The body of sin (sin nature) was destroyed by Christ's completed work. We are under NO captivity to any flesh or anybody. By saying we are, we undermine the work of the cross. True christians (who have been born again of Christ's Spirit) have only ONE NATURE. We are partakers of God's holy nature. God would never share His temple with the spirit of iniquity. He raised us up at salvation complete in Christ....body, soul and spirit and we are told we can preserve it blameless onto Christ's coming by walking in the Spirit.

"FALSE DOCTRINE????

I continue to be amazed by those who teach this "sinless perfection" theology.

The fact is.....there is NO SUCH thing taught in the Scriptures. The Christian is a forgiven SINNER but is still a sinner. The sin nature WAS NOT destroyed by Christ completed work. The major error in the teaching of sinless perfection is that it thought to be a state that can be entered into by some sort of experience and maintained from that time without sin; or, as many teach, without conscious sin. There is no Bible doctrine of a state of sinless perfection for the believer.

Please explain Romans 7:14-18............
"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out."

When Paul wrote that he was an apostle responsible for over half of the New Test. Do you thin that he was a saved man??
Do you think that he was saying that we can not sin after being saved???

There are many people in the Word of Faith especially who teache that this state of sinless perfection is not only possible, but it is necessary for the new birth. It is required for salvation. This goes against so much clear teaching in scripture that It just can not be properly spoken to here. Please just Just understand that this is a heresy so serious that it can keep people from getting saved and IMO should be avoided at all costs.

Now please take the next step and explain to us what Paul meant in 1 Timothy 1:15...........
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief ."

This verse is quoted to prove that no matter how much grace one has received from the Lord yet he can never get beyond the place where he is reckoned a sinner. “If Paul said he was the chief of sinners, then how dare we, with so much less grace and salvation, lay claim to anything higher?"???????

We should always seek to live the life of Christ in our own bodies. We should desire the victorious Christian life. But more than all, we should seek to know Him, the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings.

 

[GBzone]

.
Gerald, may I say in response to your comment of............ "I suggest that you can not know the power of a resurrection unless you are dead":
that we consider the actions of Jesus as he acted as our representative, if he our head be risen, then must we also, who are his members, rise with him. And as in the first Adam we all died, even so in him our second Adam we must all, in this sense, be made alive. That is called FEDERAL HEADSHIP.

So then HOW do we "know" the power of Christ's resurrection? I submit to you that knowledge is based on whether or not we have received the Holy Ghost, and by his powerful operations on our hearts have been raised from the death of sin, to a life of righteousness and true holiness or in other words.........
A CHANGED LIFE!

I believe without a doubt that was what Paul was chiefly trying to know and tell all of us. The resurrection of Christ's body said to him that he was satisfied and would avail him nothing, unless he experienced the power of it in raising his dead soul.

A man is satisfied with Christ as soon as he is BORN again. as he will be fully satisfied when he knows as he is known.
But Paul who clearly knew the power of HIS (the Lords) resurrection in his life and who can doubt it .
But he was also aware that even Christians and thus born again needed "the eyes of their understanding opened to see and understand what was the exceeding greatness of His power towards us who believe ............" eph .
For I would argue that every true minister of God as listed in Ephesians is meant to lead the flock or the church as each was so led till we all come to a unity of the faith and so where as he knew far more than most the power of the Lords resurection in his own life . He was well aware as any good pastor should that the flock under him were blind as it were to the vast recourses at their disposal even up to his own experience and as he said that even he desired to know the power of his resurrection he was aware there was far more than even he had yet received as it were .
That power increases with obedience .We receive it because if obedience to the gospel.
But it also increases with our obedience and closer walk with the Lord or decreases also in disobedience .

It therefore fluctuates even as our experience may do so .
The initial baptism into HIS church is a once and fro all .
The filling and continued filling which is needful for our walk and ministry or ministrations to others will be as we require it .
But if our hunger and desire for the power of his resurrection is but a little or deferred to some future date ., Then we will not lay a hold of that which is ours in Christ and MOST needful in these days of great deception and the onward march of the enemy of mens souls.
"My people shall be willing in the day of His power"
in Christ
gerald

 

[Major]

Thank you for helping. How can we see the same things, and yet others can't? Below is not for you, but read I just don't want to repost, and why others don't see this, line upon line. we compare scriptures. Could that be the issue?

Clearing up Depart from me you workers of Iniquity:

Mat 7:21-22 kjva 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Do the unsaved cast out devils? NO
Do they speak prophecy? NO

What are these folks in trouble for? Not doing the will of God.

Do the unsaved care about the will of God? NO

Is commiting sins of not doing God's will (iniquity Life without law) going to get a unsaved person being told to depart from Jesus?
NO!!!! Jesus came to save those that oppose themselves.......

What sin is it the unsaved commits?

Joh 16:9 kjva Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Mar 16:16 kjva He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Joh 3:18 kjva He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So, is Jesus telling the Workers of iniquity (Failing God's will) to depart because they are not saved? NO

What would Jesus say to someone who never knew Him as Lord, and lived a sinful life away from God.........

You think He tell them to depart..............

What would Jesus tell a servant who did know him, did operate in the gifts but would never get in the plan and will of God. They come to him trying to pass in because they did some works in His name..

So, these workers were saved, were producing fruit at one time and just like King Saul, whom God anointed to be king and choose, would not obey God.

I don't know of any other way to explain this. I have taken many different approaches, because I understand what it says with no doctrine in my way.

Matthew 7:21 that you are speaking to simply does not apply because those that Jesus was speaking to were never saved. Not all who profess to be born agaib are in fact born again and that was the focus of Jesus's teaching. It IS just that simple.

Now to a another point, you are very vocal to admit that you do not follow any doctrines in your understanding of God's Word.

May I say to you that that is one of the real dangers of Christianity today. When you do not accept Bible doctrines you open the door to those false teachers who will come along and say to you exactly what you want to hear and then you are hooked because proper doctrine was ignored or rejected. I encourage you to re-think your position on this.

 

[Leemg]

Thank you for helping. How can we see the same things, and yet others can't? Below is not for you, but read I just don't want to repost, and why others don't see this, line upon line. we compare scriptures. Could that be the issue?

Clearing up Depart from me you workers of Iniquity:

Mat 7:21-22 kjva 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Do the unsaved cast out devils? NO
Do they speak prophecy? NO

What are these folks in trouble for? Not doing the will of God.

Do the unsaved care about the will of God? NO

Is commiting sins of not doing God's will (iniquity Life without law) going to get a unsaved person being told to depart from Jesus?
NO!!!! Jesus came to save those that oppose themselves.......

What sin is it the unsaved commits?

Joh 16:9 kjva Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Mar 16:16 kjva He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Joh 3:18 kjva He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So, is Jesus telling the Workers of iniquity (Failing God's will) to depart because they are not saved? NO

What would Jesus say to someone who never knew Him as Lord, and lived a sinful life away from God.........

You think He tell them to depart..............

What would Jesus tell a servant who did know him, did operate in the gifts but would never get in the plan and will of God. They come to him trying to pass in because they did some works in His name..

So, these workers were saved, were producing fruit at one time and just like King Saul, whom God anointed to be king and choose, would not obey God.

I don't know of any other way to explain this. I have taken many different approaches, because I understand what it says with no doctrine in my way.

I believe you explained it quite well Faith. I do believe much of the problem with people not seeing the truth is tradition. Tradition makes the Word of God of none effect in saved and unsaved lives. The doctrines of men keep the truth from being revealed to them. In addition, after the death of the last apostle we know the church went into the dark ages. And in doing so apostolic order was discarded. The church no longer followed the apostles’ doctrine and so many other doctrines were added to the faith. Thus we have the birth of denominationalism. Denominationalism divided the body of Christ and opened it up for heresy and every evil thing. False teachings and false doctrines have done horrific damage to the church and has kept the saints ignorant and powerless. Unfortunately the truth about SALVATION and the Mystery of Godliness has been trampled on and discarded. Jude had the same problem. Re-Read the Book of Jude and its warnings about the great apostasy.

 

[Leemg]

I believe you explained it quite well Faith. I do believe much of the problem with people not seeing the truth is tradition and doctrines of men. Tradition makes the Word of God of none effect in saved and unsaved lives. The doctrines of men keep the truth from being revealed to them. In addition, after the death of the last apostle we know the church went into the dark ages. And in doing so apostolic order was discarded. The church no longer followed the apostles’ doctrine and so many other doctrines were added to the faith. Thus we have the birth of denominationalism. Denominationalism divided the body of Christ and opened it up for heresy and every evil thing. False teachings and false doctrines have done horrific damage to the church and has kept the saints ignorant and powerless. Unfortunately the truth about SALVATION and the Mystery of Godliness has been trampled on and discarded. Jude had the same problem. Re-Read the Book of Jude and its warnings about the great apostasy.

 

[Leemg]

"FALSE DOCTRINE????

I continue to be amazed by those who teach this "sinless perfection" theology.

The fact is.....there is NO SUCH thing taught in the Scriptures. The Christian is a forgiven SINNER but is still a sinner. The sin nature WAS NOT destroyed by Christ completed work. The major error in the teaching of sinless perfection is that it thought to be a state that can be entered into by some sort of experience and maintained from that time without sin; or, as many teach, without conscious sin. There is no Bible doctrine of a state of sinless perfection for the believer.

Please explain Romans 7:14-18............
"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out."

When Paul wrote that he was an apostle responsible for over half of the New Test. Do you thin that he was a saved man??
Do you think that he was saying that we can not sin after being saved???

There are many people in the Word of Faith especially who teache that this state of sinless perfection is not only possible, but it is necessary for the new birth. It is required for salvation. This goes against so much clear teaching in scripture that It just can not be properly spoken to here. Please just Just understand that this is a heresy so serious that it can keep people from getting saved and IMO should be avoided at all costs.

Now please take the next step and explain to us what Paul meant in 1 Timothy 1:15...........
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief ."

This verse is quoted to prove that no matter how much grace one has received from the Lord yet he can never get beyond the place where he is reckoned a sinner. “If Paul said he was the chief of sinners, then how dare we, with so much less grace and salvation, lay claim to anything higher?"???????

We should always seek to live the life of Christ in our own bodies. We should desire the victorious Christian life. But more than all, we should seek to know Him, the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings.

I do not wish to get into an argument over perfection. But one thing I will point out, in order to maintain the false teaching of "dual nature" and that a saint is still a sinner with a sin nature, it must be taught that Paul is speaking about his present state in Romans 7 as a saved man but still bound. This is a grave error that has been taught to many in the church and which therefore takes them on a trail throughout the bible with the wrong perspective of the New Man, Salvation and the Mystery of Godliness.

If you truly rightly divide Romans 7, it is clear that Paul was referring to his past and his condition before salvation. Paul moves back and forth in Romans 7 in his explanation of the unsaved and saved states. It is also very important to understand the previous chapters in Romans (especially 3 - 6) in order to understand chapter 7. In chapter 7, Paul is clearly talking about his wretched state under the Law. Paul only considered himself wretched and a sinner when he was unsaved and under the bondage of the Law. He NEVER refers to himself as under bondage or a sinner anyplace in scripture unless you take Romans 7 and come up with a private interpretation. Paul is very explicit all over the New Testament as to the power of the resurrection in him and his continual admonishment to the churches to be holy and preserve themselves blameless. Paul's teachings are not that of one who sees himself as a sinner. Quite the contrary!!!!

 

[CCW95A]

Thank you for helping. How can we see the same things, and yet others can't? Below is not for you, but read I just don't want to repost, and why others don't see this, line upon line. we compare scriptures. Could that be the issue?

Clearing up Depart from me you workers of Iniquity:

Mat 7:21-22 kjva 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Do the unsaved cast out devils? NO
Do they speak prophecy? NO

What are these folks in trouble for? Not doing the will of God.

Do the unsaved care about the will of God? NO

Is commiting sins of not doing God's will (iniquity Life without law) going to get a unsaved person being told to depart from Jesus?
NO!!!! Jesus came to save those that oppose themselves.......

What sin is it the unsaved commits?

Joh 16:9 kjva Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Mar 16:16 kjva He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Joh 3:18 kjva He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So, is Jesus telling the Workers of iniquity (Failing God's will) to depart because they are not saved? NO

What would Jesus say to someone who never knew Him as Lord, and lived a sinful life away from God.........

You think He tell them to depart..............

What would Jesus tell a servant who did know him, did operate in the gifts but would never get in the plan and will of God. They come to him trying to pass in because they did some works in His name..

So, these workers were saved, were producing fruit at one time and just like King Saul, whom God anointed to be king and choose, would not obey God.

I don't know of any other way to explain this. I have taken many different approaches, because I understand what it says with no doctrine in my way.

The reason you are not getting this right is because you are not getting the parable of the sower right. Many so called Christians are in the ministry today. They masquerade as a sheep in wolfs clothing. They think they are saved, but are not. They prophesy falsely, they go through all the motions of laying hands on the sick, and do all the same things as a true minster of God. Paul warned the Church of these men. Jesus condemned them, but somehow you seem to think they are really OK, just need a little correction. If Jesus said "I NEVER knew you" he meant what he said. That is a pretty good indicator they were never his at any time. Ever hear of deception? This is why Jesus said, "you will know them by their fruits", not works or faith! Works and faith can easily be faked, deceiving many, which is what these people were doing, but the fruit of the Spirit can never be faked. The Holy Spirit living in one person can very easily detect that same Spirit in another. Never judge things according to their appearance or works.