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It is more of being "crucified with Christ "
Then being "buried with Christ "
For" they that are Christs have crucified the flesh with the lusts thereof"
"If then the same Spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell IN you he shall quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit "
It is then a question of "let not sin reign in your mortal bodies that ye obey in the lusts thereof"
Then the logic is let Christ reign in your moral body or in you . Not you .

Very different .

in Christ
gerald

Scripture says in 3 places to walk in the Spirit (spirit) and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
That is something we do.

So, the body can be subject to the spirit (Spirit) if we subject ourselves to the Holy Spirit.

So, they that are in "Christ" they have to crucify the body using "Christ"

So what is Christ?

The Logic is Let the Anointed one and His anointing reign in you.

Eph 2:18 kjva For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

So it's not very different, it says the same thing. Christ is from the Hebrew Messiah which both mean anointing. Or the power of the Holy Spirit.

I can do all things though............ The anointed one and His anointing. Whom we have access to One Spirit and unto the Father through the Holy Spirit.
 
This is one reasons I don't like doctrines. They get in the way and make things Absoutes.

Heb 10:26-29 kjva 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Read this carefully Major..............

1) One sin

2) Can only be commited once a persons has the knowledge of the truth. Unsaved have zero knowledge.

3) Only judgement and fire from God is the result of this one sin.

4) The sin was counting the blood covenant by which that person was santified by a unhoy thing. The Person was saved, but left Jesus for another god. IN Hebrews going back to Judiasm was a issue.

1Jn 5:16-17 kjva 16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Throwing rocks at Stephan is bad and acts of unrighteousness. There is ONE SIN though that is not to be prayed for. Same one mentioned in Hebrews.

John Mentions it at the end. He does not warn not to throw rocks, or commit adultery. He does not mention lying or drinking. He does not mention muder, or coveting. He Mentions One warning.

1Jn 5:21 kjva Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

There is a sin unto death, a sin under judgement and fire, a sin that is mentioned 3 times in scriptures. A sin we can't do anything to bring them back, John said don't even pray for that.
Scripture says in 3 places to walk in the Spirit (spirit) and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
That is something we do.

So, the body can be subject to the spirit (Spirit) if we subject ourselves to the Holy Spirit.

So, they that are in "Christ" they have to crucify the body using "Christ"

So what is Christ?

The Logic is Let the Anointed one and His anointing reign in you.

Eph 2:18 kjva For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

So it's not very different, it says the same thing. Christ is from the Hebrew Messiah which both mean anointing. Or the power of the Holy Spirit.

I can do all things though............ The anointed one and His anointing. Whom we have access to One Spirit and unto the Father through the Holy Spirit.

To crucify the flesh and to be buried with Christ is quite different than having the flesh locked and bound in a box.
You cnat be buried until your dead and your not buried until you are and the only way to you will EVER rise again is if God raises you from the dead.
But it is not the old man that is risen but it is A new man IN Christ as well.

Paul spoke about being made conformable to his death and knowing the power of his resurrection,
I suggest that you cannot know the power of a resurrection unless you are dead.
In as much then and by the same measure you are made conformable to His death. Then by the same measure we may know the power of his resurrection.
He also spoke in Ephesians "that the eyes of our understanding may be opened that we may see and comprehend what is the exceeding greatness of His power that is towards us who believe even the same might power that raise up Jesus form the dead...."
A new BORN child of God does indeed know in some measure the power of His resurrection .
But I suggest that no child of God does any work of God till they then cross Jordan .
For they who came out of Egypt did none till they had .
The servant of Elijah did none till he had .
and the Lord Himself did no work till he had .
Jordan speaks of descending or death.

The church has justified its unbelief and its wandering in the wilderness for 40 years as the NORM of a Christian life.
It actually only took them 40 DAYS to get from Egypt to the banks of the river Jordan.
I think we /the church in general do not realise how radical this Gospel of Jesus Christ is .
and have again reduced it to being but BORNagain for peace sake . For that radical gospel is as a sword and the world is too well and comfortable in the church thank you very much .
Even as the unclean spirit was in the synagogue at Capernium.

in Christ
gerald
 
Um I agree with Major cos this happened to a friend of mine.
She was saved five days before she passed and she did sin after she was saved and that sin was unto death. She was drinking and the consequences of that were severe. However her spirit was saved and I know she is with the Lord.
I found out cos her sister told me..some neighbours came to their door as heard some fighting and they told her and her sister the gospel and they repented and believed there and then. five days later my friend went missing, it is presumed she drowned though nobody really knows for sure, but she was at a party and quite scared and she knew she shouldnt have gone cos she didnt trust the ppl,and even tried to ring the police but they wouldnt believe her. Anyway her behaviour was quite erratic but I know she was trying the best she could to have faith while knee deep in sin after being saved. I dont think she ever got time to even go to any church.

Glad to know we agree. May I also give you a testimony of a friend of mine that speaks to this "sin unto death" thing.

John was the store manager of a JC Penny department store. He was about 45 years old and was a wonderful preacher. He confessed to me that God was calling him to preach ......HOWEVER, he was making so much money at his present job he just could not give in to Gods calling and so he rejected that call of God on his life. Within the next year he died of cancer. Unto the day he died, he and his parents were convinced that because he refused Gods call, God then took him on home.

IMO.....that is exactly what the "Sin unto death" is.
 
Scripture says in 3 places to walk in the Spirit (spirit) and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
That is something we do.

So, the body can be subject to the spirit (Spirit) if we subject ourselves to the Holy Spirit.

So, they that are in "Christ" they have to crucify the body using "Christ"

So what is Christ?

The Logic is Let the Anointed one and His anointing reign in you.

Eph 2:18 kjva For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

So it's not very different, it says the same thing. Christ is from the Hebrew Messiah which both mean anointing. Or the power of the Holy Spirit.

I can do all things though............ The anointed one and His anointing. Whom we have access to One Spirit and unto the Father through the Holy Spirit.

You asked.......
"So WHAT is Christ?"

Christ is not a WHAT?
 
Well, we met part of the way I guess. The first effects of sin are those things mentioned in the curse of the law Deut 28. Physicaly problems, money problems, and it's a long list.

I can't agree with your thought on Hebrews 10. The "ONE" sin is specific and that is counting the blood covenant by which you where sanctified a unholy thing.
Folks that take up keeping parts of the law or even making sacrifices again like they did in Galatia does not mean they look forward to God's judgement and fire.

Someone that actually counted the blood covenant worthless is a heart condition. It says nothing about keeping the law.

John said there was a sin unto death. To say that means physically dead would mean that believer would have to die sick or something and God would not heal them.
Even Paul turning one over to Satan for his death (Destruction of the Flesh) so the spirit might be saved, reprented and got better as Paul said recieve him that he have no overmuch sorrow.

So even blatant sin and getting close to death is recoverable.

Not wanting Jesus anymore, counting the blood covenant a unholy thing despite the Holy Spirit of Grace is not good. Someone can be in sin and make it back. Someone that wants nothing more to do with Jesus and Salvation after knowing the truth, We can't bring them back.

Scripture never mentioned they can't repent, but two places say we can't do anything for them.

You said................
"So even blatant sin and getting close to death is recoverable."

Of course it is my brother. Why would you even think otherwise???? YOU have sinned since becoming a Christian and so have I and everyone else.
Because we sin does not make us unsaved or in danger of hell.


The point that you continue to miss is the act of KNOWN sin. A Christian who stays in sin is the point, not sinning.

Then you said..........
"Not wanting Jesus anymore, counting the blood covenant a unholy thing despite the Holy Spirit of Grace is not good. Someone can be in sin and make it back. Someone that wants nothing more to do with Jesus and Salvation after knowing the truth, We can't bring them back."

Make it back???? See! There is a difference between sin and staying in KNOWN sin. When a believer sins, he is still a child of God and is saved and will be in heaven.

A believer who STAYS in known sin is still a child of God and is saved and will go to heaven HOWEVER, there is a real good chance that he will leave here a lot quicker than he needed to because he did not confess and repent, and he will lose a reward when he gets there.

Do you remember the story of the prodigal son? When he was in the far country, in sin, was he still the fathers son?
When he confessed and repented, was he restored????
Was he still his fathers son???
 
Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. (ESV)

Walking in the Spirit is done by keeping your mind set on the things of the Spirit. Walking in the flesh is done by keeping your mind set on the things of the flesh.
Someone asked me one time "how long can a person walk in the Spirit?" I said, "How long can you keep your mind set on the things of God?, that's how long"
 
You said................
"So even blatant sin and getting close to death is recoverable."

Of course it is my brother. Why would you even think otherwise???? YOU have sinned since becoming a Christian and so have I and everyone else.
Because we sin does not make us unsaved or in danger of hell.


The point that you continue to miss is the act of KNOWN sin. A Christian who stays in sin is the point, not sinning.

Then you said..........
"Not wanting Jesus anymore, counting the blood covenant a unholy thing despite the Holy Spirit of Grace is not good. Someone can be in sin and make it back. Someone that wants nothing more to do with Jesus and Salvation after knowing the truth, We can't bring them back."

Make it back???? See! There is a difference between sin and staying in KNOWN sin. When a believer sins, he is still a child of God and is saved and will be in heaven.

A believer who STAYS in known sin is still a child of God and is saved and will go to heaven HOWEVER, there is a real good chance that he will leave here a lot quicker than he needed to because he did not confess and repent, and he will lose a reward when he gets there.

Do you remember the story of the prodigal son? When he was in the far country, in sin, was he still the fathers son?
When he confessed and repented, was he restored????
Was he still his fathers son???

I agree with you Major. All sin leads to death, the curse of the Law will see to that and it's not some "spiritual" death we don't understand. It's physical death of things in life, even your own life as the effects of the curse are listed in Deut 28.

The curse causless shall not come.

So anyone seeing the effects of the Curse for long periods of time, there is a reason behind it. Something they are allowing or doing that needs to be changed.

That still leaves us with Heb 6, 10 and What John said though.
There is "A" Sin unto death and being warned to stay away from Idols is the same exact thing Hebrews was talking about. That is not some physical death or someone continueing to sin. It's someone who has trashed the blood covenant by which they were santified and there is no more santification left as they now serve an idol and not God.

We also have Paul turning someone over to Satan, so that their "spirit" may be saved.

Not a whole lot to compare with that scripture but Paul said judge yourselve that you be not condemned with the World.

1Co 11:31-32 kjva 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Jesus said, whoever overcomes, I will not blot their name out of the book of Life.

We have a few scriptures that do not fit the OSAS model.

You asked.......
"So WHAT is Christ?"

Christ is not a WHAT?

Major, if I say something, there is a very good chance the reason or thing I say is valid.

When I asked What Christ is, I meant what does Christ mean.

If Christ where a Person, it would be a Male Greek Noun. It's a Greek Adjective that is part of speech, defined in the article. IN the case of Jesus Christ many believe this is a proper Greek Title of someone.

Christ means anointed. More specifically His Anointing.

Because it comes from the Hebrew Word Messiah then it would be understood as Jesus the Messiah (Anointed one and His anointing)

So a Greek Adjective is a what, as in what does it mean.
 
To crucify the flesh and to be buried with Christ is quite different than having the flesh locked and bound in a box.
You cnat be buried until your dead and your not buried until you are and the only way to you will EVER rise again is if God raises you from the dead.
But it is not the old man that is risen but it is A new man IN Christ as well.

Paul spoke about being made conformable to his death and knowing the power of his resurrection,
I suggest that you cannot know the power of a resurrection unless you are dead.

in Christ
gerald

Eph 4:22 kjva That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

We put off the Old man. The Old man still wants to walk around and cause problems.

Rom 6:3-6 kjva 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Know you not that we are buried with him "BY BAPTISM"??
Not by dying and being ressurected again, having a new body.

Eph 1:18-20 kjva 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

If we could not know the power of the ressurection until we died, the n Paul would not pray that we have our eyes opened and know the greatness of His Power which He used to raise Jesus from the dead.
 
I agree with you Major. All sin leads to death, the curse of the Law will see to that and it's not some "spiritual" death we don't understand. It's physical death of things in life, even your own life as the effects of the curse are listed in Deut 28.

The curse causless shall not come.

So anyone seeing the effects of the Curse for long periods of time, there is a reason behind it. Something they are allowing or doing that needs to be changed.

That still leaves us with Heb 6, 10 and What John said though.
There is "A" Sin unto death and being warned to stay away from Idols is the same exact thing Hebrews was talking about. That is not some physical death or someone continueing to sin. It's someone who has trashed the blood covenant by which they were santified and there is no more santification left as they now serve an idol and not God.

We also have Paul turning someone over to Satan, so that their "spirit" may be saved.

Not a whole lot to compare with that scripture but Paul said judge yourselve that you be not condemned with the World.

1Co 11:31-32 kjva 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Jesus said, whoever overcomes, I will not blot their name out of the book of Life.

We have a few scriptures that do not fit the OSAS model.



Major, if I say something, there is a very good chance the reason or thing I say is valid.

When I asked What Christ is, I meant what does Christ mean.

If Christ where a Person, it would be a Male Greek Noun. It's a Greek Adjective that is part of speech, defined in the article. IN the case of Jesus Christ many believe this is a proper Greek Title of someone.

Christ means anointed. More specifically His Anointing.

Because it comes from the Hebrew Word Messiah then it would be understood as Jesus the Messiah (Anointed one and His anointing)

So a Greek Adjective is a what, as in what does it mean.

I understand.......just asked to clarify for anyone else who might have read the comment and did not grasp your thought.

Help me out.........

You said-
"That still leaves us with Heb 6, 10 and What John said though."

Who is the John and Are you referring to Hebrews 6:10 or Hebrews chapter 6 AND chapter 10?
 
I understand.......just asked to clarify for anyone else who might have read the comment and did not grasp your thought.

Help me out.........

You said-
"That still leaves us with Heb 6, 10 and What John said though."

Who is the John and Are you referring to Hebrews 6:10 or Hebrews chapter 6 AND chapter 10?

I just put the chapters in because switching to "mysword" on tablet back and forth is rough. PC's and E-Sword are quick and far more efficient.

All I am saying Major is we have scriptures that do not fit the OSAS mold. Why I said that I try to stay away from Doctrines of men, and lots of these Doctrines attempt to fit all scripture into the doctrine making them all absolutes.

Remember the thread about the Sabbath? All scriptures seem to point to keeping the Sabbath despite what the scripture said.

1) We judge ourslves or God Judges us that we be not condemned with the World. The World is on their way to Hell.

This verse would suggest that refusing to be corrected, ends badly.

2) Paul turned one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his "spirit" may be saved.

What happens if the man does not change (He did repent and was full of sorrow praise God) but was he in danger of hell?

3) Jesus said, Rev 3:5 kjva He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

What happens if you don't overcome? Some have made up a "lambs book of life and a seperate book of life to explain this away.

4) Heb 6:4-8 kjva 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

We could use what Paul said that if anyone works abide not (man produced thorns instead of fruit) the man will suffer loss but still saved as by fire.

We have to keep all scriptures in mind.......... He is Neigh unto cursing....... that means close to it.

We can do nothing to bring the person back, though we can't, it does not say he can't repent and start producing good fruit.

5) Heb 10:26-29 kjva 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

ONE SIN, because the ONE SIN is mentioned below.

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The sin was counting the blood covenant a unholy thing and not worthy enough to save. Going back to other gods

6) John wars there is a sin unto death........ All unrighteousness is sin, but there is ONE sin unto death........... Stay away from idols. Same sin someone could commit in Hebrews 10.

So instead of believing some blanket OSAS doctrine of man. We need to understand there are scriptures that point to the fact man is still responsible to do what they are told and not leave Jesus for some other god, like Allah.

We are to judge ourselves.
We are to trust in God and overcome.
We are to stick with God, being thankful for our Salvation (born again)
We need to be aware that continuing in sin, may end badly. As Paul turned one over to Satan to save the man's spirit.
 
Every single person born on planet earth is guilty of knowing the truth, and yet they still continue in sin before salvation For the Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL men.... Any one who does not believe the record (gospel) that God gave of his Son, God calls that person a liar, because God has shown it to them. The definition of a unbeliever is some one who knows the truth but has made a conscience decision not to believe. That is willful sinning.
 
If you're walking down the street and you spit, in some cities you've broken the law. You find out because now you get a fine of $100. So you make $0.12/year, what do you do? You cross the street and because you didn't use the cross-walk, you're fined $100. You have 30 days to pay. A man comes and pays your debt Who turns out to be the Son of the Judge. You go before the Judge and the Guy Who paid your debt is your lawyer.

You leave the courthouse debt free, and you spit on the sidewalk and cross the street not using the cross-walk out of habit. What happens?

Logic dictates that you get fined $200 of which you cannot pay. Now what? What does the scriptures say?
 
Every single person born on planet earth is guilty of knowing the truth, and yet they still continue in sin before salvation For the Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL men.... Any one who does not believe the record (gospel) that God gave of his Son, God calls that person a liar, because God has shown it to them. The definition of a unbeliever is some one who knows the truth but has made a conscience decision not to believe. That is willful sinning.

Yes, but I question knowing the Holy Spirit as in Heb 6, 10 and knowing by things seen.

The person without excuse would be judged by the seen. That is the basic understanding that there is a God, and there is a judge and creator of all things.

A far greater understanding would be someone walking in the unseen, and know's the Holy Spirit but decides they no longer want a part of that.

There has to be a difference, right?

We have two threads that have headed toward OSAS. It shows how bad that doctrine is as folks read all the word through that one doctrine and so it's formost on their mind.
 
If you're walking down the street and you spit, in some cities you've broken the law. You find out because now you get a fine of $100. So you make $0.12/year, what do you do? You cross the street and because you didn't use the cross-walk, you're fined $100. You have 30 days to pay. A man comes and pays your debt Who turns out to be the Son of the Judge. You go before the Judge and the Guy Who paid your debt is your lawyer.

You leave the courthouse debt free, and you spit on the sidewalk and cross the street not using the cross-walk out of habit. What happens?

Logic dictates that you get fined $200 of which you cannot pay. Now what? What does the scriptures say?

Scripture says move from the town and stay off that street?
 
Yes, but I question knowing the Holy Spirit as in Heb 6, 10 and knowing by things seen.

The person without excuse would be judged by the seen. That is the basic understanding that there is a God, and there is a judge and creator of all things.

A far greater understanding would be someone walking in the unseen, and know's the Holy Spirit but decides they no longer want a part of that.

There has to be a difference, right?

We have two threads that have headed toward OSAS. It shows how bad that doctrine is as folks read all the word through that one doctrine and so it's formost on their mind.

Before you were saved did you ever go to a Church service and feel the presence of God? You were being made partaker of the Holy Spirit, and you were tasting the powers of the world to come, even though you were still unsaved. A Christian can not loose his salvation because you can not kill Christ in you, because he is God. Physical death can come if a Christian knowingly abides in disobediance. But I think that is very rare, as the Lord knows exactly how to discipline those who go astray. As for bearing fruit, once a tree begins bearing it's fruit that same tree can not produce bad fruit. Jesus said a good tree can not produce bad fruit neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. Our fruit that Christian produces does not come from the person, it comes from the seed, which is the Word of God. seeds of life produces a tree of life which we partake of.
 
Before you were saved did you ever go to a Church service and feel the presence of God? You were being made partaker of the Holy Spirit, and you were tasting the powers of the world to come, even though you were still unsaved. A Christian can not loose his salvation because you can not kill Christ in you, because he is God. Physical death can come if a Christian knowingly abides in disobediance. But I think that is very rare, as the Lord knows exactly how to discipline those who go astray. As for bearing fruit, once a tree begins bearing it's fruit that same tree can not produce bad fruit. Jesus said a good tree can not produce bad fruit neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. Our fruit that Christian produces does not come from the person, it comes from the seed, which is the Word of God. seeds of life produces a tree of life which we partake of.

Mat 13:22 kjva He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Mar 4:19 kjva And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Luk 8:15 kjva But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
[and if you don't keep the word?]

Joh 15:5 kjva I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[What happens if you don't abide?]

Gal 5:17-22 kjva 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[What happens to those that are not led by the Spirit or walk in the Spirit?]

Tit 3:14 kjva And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

[What about those that don't learn to maintain good works. What happens to the fruit?]

We are born of the same seed, the Word of God....... Fruit is produced by walking in the Spirit, keeping the Word and Abiding in the Lord. It just does not automatically produce, and it produces good works if one will produce.
 
This is why a born again Christian can never stay in sin as it is completely against their new nature which is Jesus Christ.

1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

1Jn 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Unbelief is the only sin that is unforgivable. This sin is done by those who know the truth, but have decided not to believe because their deeds are evil.

True. It is against the nature of a true son of God to sin, as we have been made partakers at birth (our new birth) of God's holy nature. That is why Jesus could say, be ye holy for I am holy. He was prophesying about the coming salvation and the indwelling of His Spirit in those who would be born of and LED by His Spirit. Romans 8:14

Any truth that you know and then reject by not walking in that truth is unbelief and disobedience/sin. At salvation we are set free from the power of sin and therefore we sin by "choice". What? know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have of God, and you are not your own?
20For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
1 Cor. 6:19
The Lord could not tell us to be holy if we were not able to keep our temples holy, or if our flesh was bound or in captivity.
 
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To crucify the flesh and to be buried with Christ is quite different than having the flesh locked and bound in a box.
You cnat be buried until your dead and your not buried until you are and the only way to you will EVER rise again is if God raises you from the dead.
But it is not the old man that is risen but it is A new man IN Christ as well.

Paul spoke about being made conformable to his death and knowing the power of his resurrection,
I suggest that you cannot know the power of a resurrection unless you are dead.
In as much then and by the same measure you are made conformable to His death. Then by the same measure we may know the power of his resurrection.
He also spoke in Ephesians "that the eyes of our understanding may be opened that we may see and comprehend what is the exceeding greatness of His power that is towards us who believe even the same might power that raise up Jesus form the dead...."
A new BORN child of God does indeed know in some measure the power of His resurrection .
But I suggest that no child of God does any work of God till they then cross Jordan .
For they who came out of Egypt did none till they had .
The servant of Elijah did none till he had .
and the Lord Himself did no work till he had .
Jordan speaks of descending or death.

The church has justified its unbelief and its wandering in the wilderness for 40 years as the NORM of a Christian life.
It actually only took them 40 DAYS to get from Egypt to the banks of the river Jordan.
I think we /the church in general do not realise how radical this Gospel of Jesus Christ is .
and have again reduced it to being but BORNagain for peace sake . For that radical gospel is as a sword and the world is too well and comfortable in the church thank you very much .
Even as the unclean spirit was in the synagogue at Capernium.

in Christ
gerald

Ephesians 2:4-5
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,…

We were resurrected - raised up with Christ at salvation. Before that we were dead in His eyes and on our way to hell. It is the old man who is put to death (forever) and the New Man is raised in Christ. Colossians 2:10 -11 At salvation we are made complete in Christ. And in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;…

For we know that our old self (old man/body of sin) was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--
 
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Mat 13:22 kjva He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Mar 4:19 kjva And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Luk 8:15 kjva But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
[and if you don't keep the word?]

Joh 15:5 kjva I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[What happens if you don't abide?]

Gal 5:17-22 kjva 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[What happens to those that are not led by the Spirit or walk in the Spirit?]

Tit 3:14 kjva And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

[What about those that don't learn to maintain good works. What happens to the fruit?]

We are born of the same seed, the Word of God....... Fruit is produced by walking in the Spirit, keeping the Word and Abiding in the Lord. It just does not automatically produce, and it produces good works if one will produce.
You asked: [What happens to those that are not led by the Spirit or walk in the Spirit?]

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
 
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