Doctrinal Authority

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Major, Dec 19, 2014.

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  1. From my observations in life and recently right here on the website I have seen the Christian Community take a step away from Biblical authority. Sometimes it is consciously and sometimes it is subconsciously, but always tragically.

    A great number of people have slowly moved away from the historic positions concerning the nature of the Scriptures. Big or small, deliberate or not, when anyone takes such a step they court disaster in their lives.
    That kind of step will result in a loss of mission, loss of evangelistic zeal, theological defection leading to more of an emphasis on the material and temporary rather than the eternal.

    The basic problem IMO that we face today has nothing to do with knowledge and truth. It is not the quantity of truth that is being debated, but the SOURCE of that truth.

    Philosophically, what I am referring to is called the study of "Epistemology". That means how we know what we know and how do we now what is true. That seems to be the basic contention between people on ALL Christian web site. EVERYBODY is right!!!!

    Just follow any thread on a Bible subject and every single person that contributes to is RIGHT in his own mind. One person says.....we must keep the Law to stay saved. Another person say that we do not have to keep the Law to stay saved. One person says that we MUST BE BAPTIZED in order to be saved. The other person says no, water baptism does not save. The list goes on and on and I am sure that if you are reading these words you are agreeing with what I just said.

    Now, how can everyone be right????? How can we analyze competing claims to the truth?

    There are 3 basic possibilities to explain this situation:

    1. Human Reason or "Rationalism".
    2. Ecclesiastical Authority.
    3. Divine revelation.

    #1...Rationalism is the idea that truth can be determined by experimentation, by our senses, by our observation of phenomena and what we want to happen. What happens in this understanding is classic.
    Whether we believe that REAL truth is a product of what goes on in our OWN minds instinctively or whether it is something placed into our minds by what someone else tells us or what we see , it still comes down to a matter of one's own personal mind, reason and experiences as being the ultimate determination of what the truth is.

    #2....Ecclesiastical Authority, is not as confusing and is easier to handle. This in effect says that my church is the ultimate authority. No matter what I think is right or wrong, if the church says it is right then it is right for me. There are several examples of this with us today and I see no reason to list any as there are many.
    The faithful within the church are supposed to receive the dogma of the church as being of God. That leads to the position of the Scriptures becoming subservient to the denomination teaching of any given doctrine.

    So, ultimately, what is truth, or what is right or wrong is determined by man or men who the church has officially determined through it pronouncements and guidelines.

    #3.....Divine Revelation. This means specifically the Word of God as we find written in the Scriptures.

    Martin Luther said......"My conscience is captive to the Word of God".
    That means that when I think one thing but the Bible says something else, the Bible is right and I am wrong and I am the one who needs to change my thinking.

    Anytime a person says, "I do not believe the Bible is correct on this point", that person is operating from the basis of RATIONALISM or ECCESIASTICAL AUTHORITY.

    Folks......we cannot correct something unless we have something which is more accurate, more true, more authoritative than the thing which we are trying to correct. So then........from now on, when you see anyone that says he finds any flaw or untruth in Scripture, or when he is shown by that same Scripture his error and he rejects it........that person is then by his own statement saying that HE has a higher basis for the truth than the Scriptures, and presumably it is HIM/HER.

    This all means simply this: The mind of modern man has convinced himself that his thoughts and ways are better than those of God's Word.

    I am interested in what you think and I hope you will respond.
    Waggles, Teepee, KingJ and 2 others say Amen and like this.
  2. I think there are between 35000 and 55000 Christian denonoinations that all think they are right. And that means that not one of them agree with any other group. If they did agree then there would be one less. But theres not. I picked my forum name for a reason. SO I am not interested in what anyone thinks. I want the pure word or nothing. Any thing I speak on is backed up with scripture. And I expect the same or disregaurd it. Nice post btw.
  3. Luther also wanted to throw away several books of the Bible, so I wouldn't show him as an example of virtue or intellect.
  4. BIBLE =

    Jesus did not tell us He was sending us a book to teach us, but rather, He was sending the Holy Spirit. If we get real still and quiet and listen to that small voice, which is the Holy Spirit, He will guide us, more often than not to the exact Scripture we need to handle the situation at hand.

    This is my experience, anyway. (y)
    LanceA likes this.
  5. I agree with you that Holy Spirit is our teacher, but you still run across a group of people saying Holy Spirit lead them to this interpretation and then another group saying the same thing and the interpretation is different. So we can conclude only one interpretation is correct so if that is the case is Holy Spirit speaking to both or is someone just thinking they are hearing HS or is there a demonic influence that is speaking to the wrong person?

    My thought on hearing HS is most people don't know when HS is speaking to them. If we don't listen to HS daily then how are we going to know His voice? To know the voice of HS we need to take a chance from time to time and do what HS says and with trial and error we will figure out if it is HS or our own thoughts. Just my two cents.
    KingJ and Preachers-Wife say Amen and like this.
  6. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    First things first Does it tie up with the word? If not.
    satan came to steal kill and destroy. he steals the word as is clear from the denomination figures. They are all mixed up.
    Preachers-Wife likes this.

  7. In my own personal experience, if I am unsure as to whom I am listening to, I go to the Bible first, if I can't find my answer there, then it's to my pastor. In my case it's my husband, together we work it out. Sometimes it is me or satan that I am listening to, but as my faith grows and I further my journey down the narrow path, I find I have more questions, but less and less it is me or satan talking and more and more the Holy Spirit.
    Ravindran, Major and LanceA says Amen and like this.
  8. I thought the Cathloic Church was the final authority. That is what the sign says at least.

    Anyway a wise man has things revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. The wise man knows it's only in part because of the vastness of God and His knowledge. No mans Doctrine is perfect.

    Jesus said what measure you give to the Word, it shall be measured back again. So a wise person does not teach on those things he himself has not taken years to study out and get personal revelation about.

    The confusion comes when someone reads something and suddenly becomes a expert in it. Then says God showed them.
    Major and Preachers-Wife say Amen and like this.
  9. "Jesus said what measure you give to the Word, it shall be measured back again. So a wise person does not teach on those things he himself has not taken years to study out and get personal revelation about."

    This verse is about Judgeing, not teaching.
    How do you know who is well versed and lead by God and who of there own opinion and expertise?

    And if we have the mind of Christ as the word says. where does it say it takes years?

    John 3:6 This is where its at.
  10. All of Mark 4 staring "The sower soweth the Word" is about how the Word operaates and what the enemy is able to do concerning the Word. There is nothing in there about judging.

    Well versed means little. Revelation given about the verses you do know is all important. FAith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God, the Greek phrase means over and over.

    Having the mind of Christ means are minds are fixed on the Word and God's things. It does not denote that we don't need to be continually transformed, faith to faith by renewing our minds with the Word of God.

    Now did I say take years? My fault. I meant lifetime. There is nothing in scripture that we can learn and understand 100% with the amount of years given here on Earth.

    If you believe you have reached full knowledge of something in God's Word, your in trouble.
  11. Lol...

    Once upon a time, there was ONE church.

    At some point (Early on) - people started interpreting the bible to maximize their own importance and personal clout instead of to maximize the understanding of the entire thing... They started hoarding and hiding knowledge.... They started writing "Doctrinal Statements" that sounded like scripture - but were not scripture... They started referring to doctrinal statements, commentaries, and teachers instead of the bible.

    And from then on, it was like the Tower of Babel... They tried to build the edifice to heaven and God confused their languages.... and we have over 41,000 denominations now...

    I think it's pretty ironic that Jesus said "A house divided against itself cannot stand"... and yet - the church no longer looks outside towards it's *Real* enemies, and has turned inward and spends it's time and resources trying to destroy is ITSELF....

    Of course, you could also notice the irony that every time WE try to take control of the Church - God rips it out of our hands... Almost as if to demonstrate that WE are not in control of His Church... HE is in charge of his church...

    Waggles and KingJ say Amen and like this.
  12. That's good. Never thought about it like the Tower of Babel.
  13. I never quoted mark 4. This is what I quoted and its is about judging.
    Do Not Judge

    (Matthew 7:1-6; Romans 14:1-12)

    37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: 38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

    39And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? 40The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. 41And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 42Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

    We all have the measure of faith and the measure of faith is as small as a mustard seed. And a mustered seed moves the mountian. Faith grows as we step out in faith in daily situations.

    Romans 12:1-2 1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    Your mind is renewed daily. but there is nothing that says it does can or should take a long time. You have the mind of Christ now. You are seated in heavenly places now.
    Major likes this.
  14. Interestingly - "Leaven" is a biblical idiom that's used consistently for the Doctrines of Man (It's also used for sin in general)...

    Here's the thing, though... Why is Doctrines of Man idiomatic of Leaven?

    You *Think* you are adding "Substance" but you are really adding Corruption. See... Normal "Sin" does not generally carry along the connotation that you are doing something constructive... Most people don't say "You know, this Adultry is going to help my marriage" or "This greed is going to bring me closer to my friends"... But... Adding doctrines DOES do that... We feel like we are doing something constructive when we write a formal statement or confession or creed or whatever...

    Then... These Doctrines of Man puff up with Vanity (Emptiness).... They make us feel Superior to others because Those Sinner/Heathens do NOT have the enlightenment that WE share!

    BUT... In every single case, the doctrines of man ALSO substitute Vanity for Substance.... How often do you see someone who is "Doctrinally Superior" STOP going back to the Bible as the ONLY single source for their Doctrine and they refer to their doctrinal statements, founding church fathers, important historical figures, Professor such and such, Saint such and such, and the like...

    It was a critically important to understand that if we really want to understand - we take God + Nothing! We do not have God + other religion... God + Doctrine statements, etc... We do not make our doctrines with the Bible + church fathers or the Bible + saints or the Bible + reformers... No... The Bible + Nothing!

    Waggles and The Word or nothing say Amen and like this.
  15. Good thoughts and well said!
  16. I agree 100%!!!!!!!!!!!
  17. Agreed!
  18. Weren't those 7 books...... 1 and 2 Maccabees, Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Sirach, and Wisdom, or better said The Apocrypha?

    But is was not just Luther was it? With the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem by the Romans in the year 70 A.D. and because the Christians were seen as a threat, the Jewish leaders saw a need to get their house in order. One thing that they did was to decide officially the list of books that were to compose their Scriptures in the Old Test. They did this at the Council of Jamnia (about 100 A.D.), at which they rejected the seven Deuterocanonical books because they believed that they were not written in Hebrew.
  19. No, he wanted to throw away Esther and James as well...
  20. What about the Revelation?
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