Ah, that is what happens to you. It's not automatic then. I figured all those scriptures I posted meant that, but now I am sure.
Doctrinal Authority
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Ah, that is what happens to you. It's not automatic then. I figured all those scriptures I posted meant that, but now I am sure.
OK! IMO, it says
We cannot loose what God gives and protects, and no power in this world or eternity can take from us what GOD gave. BUT, We are and were created free moral agents. Only by our free will can WE REJECT GOD. And thus reject salvation. It was our choice to accept Grace and can be our choice to turn from it.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Not SINLESS PERFECTION but JUSTIFIED INNOCENT IN CHRIST!
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
We cannot loose what God gives and protects, and no power in this world or eternity can take from us what GOD gave. BUT, We are and were created free moral agents. Only by our free will can WE REJECT GOD. And thus reject salvation. It was our choice to accept Grace and can be our choice to turn from it.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Not SINLESS PERFECTION but JUSTIFIED INNOCENT IN CHRIST!
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
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[What happens if you don't abide?]
The parable of the sower is the perfect example of "abiding". But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: (1 John 2:5)
The word, "perfected" means "has come to maturity, it has reached its full end, to make perfect, to become complete"
When someone hears the Word of God they are responsible to protect it from things that would cause it to fail from reaching its full end. To protect from the things of this world, protect it from the cares of this world, and the lusts of other things that would stop it from producing it's fruit. We are told to protect the garden in which the Word is sown, just like God told Adam to keep, and protect the garden from intruders which he failed to do. Only one person produced fruit in the parable of the sower, all the others failed because of the lusts of other things. No fruit no salvation. You will find these four kinds of people in the Church today. One out of four is saved, and the others have never brought forth any fruit, and they will eventually fall away. The very first fruit that is brought forth in any person who has kept (abided) in the truth is the "new birth"
1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Once that seed produces it's first fruit, it will always produce good fruit. You can not stop it as it is God himself who produces it not man!
[What happens to those that are not led by the Spirit or walk in the Spirit?]
Learning to walk in the Spirit is a life long process. Growing spiritually is equal to physical growth. It takes time to learn from our mistakes, just like any young child does in learning how to walk without falling. The only person who can hinder this growth is we our self's. It will happen, to some sooner, some later, depending on how much they want it. The Lord God puts no limit on how far, and how close we want to near him!
All Children of God's will be lead by the Spirit of God. Who are the children of God?, all those who are led by the Spirit of God.
[What about those that don't learn to maintain good works. What happens to the fruit]
"Faith without works is dead" Faith always has works connected to it, but we are not saved by works, neither are we saved by faith. We are only save by "grace", but this grace can only be "accessed" by faith! We have access by faith into this grace in which we now stand and rejoice in the hope of Glory God.(Romans 5:2) The works that faith produces is not done by man. but by God alone as faith works by love!!! God alone is love, and he is the only one who can do the "works" of faith. The only thing the Lord God needs from us is a believing heart!!! Jesus said the "works" of God that man is required to is believe in whom God has sent, which is Jesus Christ (the Word)
Joh 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Mans work is to believe, God's work is to do!!!!
It is God who is working in us both, to will, and to do of his good will......
Well, the thread turned into a OSAS thread, but ya, I agree with what you just said, and have been saying it through the thread.
A free Gift can't be taken away........ Job said God gives and takes....... but Job was out of his mind with grief and wrong. Hence God not so happy with him in the end.
The gifts and callings are without repentence!!!
It still does not mean we can refuse the free stuff. Millions on their way to hell, for not accepting something that is FREE and easy to obtain.
The parable sows the Word......... some produce 30, 60 and 100 fold. the scriptures I gave are examples of saved folk not producing fruit or stopped producing fruit.........
So the sower sows the Word is not really about being saved, it's what the Word produces in your life.
In fact, fruit or producing fruit has nothing to do eternal salvation. Some believers produce lots of fruit, others stop, some little. Nobody said they are not saved though (Eternal life)
We go round and round on forums.
Bottom line though, there is a Sin unto death. John said don't pray for that and warned about idols. Heb 10 says someone that has been santified but later decides the blood coveant is not a worthy thing gets judged and fire.
However we talk about the fruit of the believer, it does not remove mans free choice and we are warned about making jesus Lord, then changing (g)od's after we come to the knowledge of the truth.
It's just so easy for OSAS folks to say............ Well, they never were saved to start, never produce fruited really............ummm
I met one, worked for Billy Ghram in the 1970's. Could quote scripture chapter by chapter........ (though I think he had help and not from God's side) He changed God's, because of something that happened with his wife..........
Now we can say He never was saved really, but he spent 15 years with his wife being a wittness and always studying the Word to prepare.
The enemy is subtil, and Good believers can be dragged away captured by the devil. Call it lack of understanding something, who knows. Man has a choice though.
Brother, without fruit in a persons life they do not belong to God. Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits, not by their faith or works. (Matt 7:15)
Only a born again person is a Christian, and that person is born again by the seed of the Word of God in which the sower sowed, it is the very first fruit that is produced. There was only ONE person in that parable that produced any fruit, all others fell away because of worldly things. The only person who produced 30-60-100 fold return was just one person.
Jesus said that if you did not fully understand this parable, you how will now any parable in all of scripture? This is why he tells us exactly what the meaning was, so there would no chance of getting it wrong.
How could you say the parable of the sower has nothing to do with salvation, when it has everything to with salvation?
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
The sower soweth seeds!!!! Seeds produce fruit. Jesus said my Words are Spirit and they are life! Seeds of life produces a tree of life in us which we are able to partake from. What happens when you eat from the tree of life?
There are thousands of people who are in the ministry proclaiming the Gospel, but that does not make them Born again, or even a Christian! Works does nothing for salvation. It is only by their fruit we shall know them.
Remember Jesus said many will say to me on that day, have we not prophesied in your name and in thy name cast out devils, and done many wonderful works. These things are done inside Churchs today. Jesus said and I will say them I never knew you!!!!
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Amen to that my brother!
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Gerald, may I say in response to your comment of............ "I suggest that you can not know the power of a resurrection unless you are dead":
that we consider the actions of Jesus as he acted as our representative, if he our head be risen, then must we also, who are his members, rise with him. And as in the first Adam we all died, even so in him our second Adam we must all, in this sense, be made alive. That is called FEDERAL HEADSHIP.
So then HOW do we "know" the power of Christ's resurrection? I submit to you that knowledge is based on whether or not we have received the Holy Ghost, and by his powerful operations on our hearts have been raised from the death of sin, to a life of righteousness and true holiness or in other words.........
A CHANGED LIFE!
I believe without a doubt that was what Paul was chiefly trying to know and tell all of us. The resurrection of Christ's body said to him that he was satisfied and would avail him nothing, unless he experienced the power of it in raising his dead soul.
Good stuff! Keep up the good work.
By Faith...........the thread is "Biblical Authority". I submit to you that as a Bible doctrine the OSAV doctrine should be able to be discussed as such by us.
For each "Billy Graham's worker" that you can site as an example I can site 12 more. And I stand on the Bible as the authority by saying.........
YOU ARE CORRECT......they were never saved in the 1st place!!!
1 John 2:18-19.........
Children, as it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
It just can not be any clearer than that my brother. Some people get caught up in "emotions" and "feelings along with excitement" without ever believing upon the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus that they might be saved. Once the "Feelings" wear off and real life sets in............and we have to get down in the blood and guts of life, that is when you see the people who are truly saved.
The ones who were in it for their own personal reason, what ever they might have been are the ones who memorize Bible verses, study lessons, visit and witness. BUT where are they when reality set in??????
That my friend is the difference.
May I say to you my brother that the largest missionary field in the world is the Christian Church! That is right.......the CHURCH!
2 Timothy 3:5 says................
"Those "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.".
In other words, pews are filled with those who practice "religion" only on Sundays but when they leave church, revert back to their old ways of living, the ways of the world. Church to them has become a ritual.
I know you will not agree with what I am going to say but here it is anyway.............
I do not believe that there are any Bible verses at all which speak to or teach that a truly born again person can lose his salvation!!!!!
All the Scriptures which are used by those who reject OSAS are used out of context. Lets consider the passage you used from Hebrews 6:4-6 shall we???
There are many people who teach today that this passage clearly shows that a Christian can lose their salvation. And in a cursory reading, it does seem that this interpretation is correct. Now, here is the key to that......IF we approach that passage with the agenda already in our minds to reject OSAS, then we will read into that Scripture what we want to believe without digging any deeper to be rightly dividing the Word of God.
It is the same with all the other verses if we would consider them and we must be aware of the danger of "the first glance.”
So let’s dig in here and see what we can determine from those Scriptures you quoted.
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NKJV):............
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
This passage begs the question, “How can one be ‘enlightened’ and fall away?” "AT FIRST GLACE" It does seem to be speaking of someone losing his salvation.
But when we dig in we must identify who is the “they,” and from what have they “fallen away”?
I an sure that we all know know that this section of Hebrews is about apostates/heretics and Jews -- those who may have, to some degree, embraced the truth, but have now abandoned it. It’s also important to know how the believers who originally read this message of “those who were once enlightened” would understand it. Today, we might think it means that they were enlightened about the truth, or that they were regenerated. But what was the intent of the original author, and how would his readers have understood it? Enlightened does not always mean "Regenerated/Saved".
For correct context, in this verse, it is speaking of people who were involved, perhaps heavily involved, in a church. It is likely they would have joined a congregation, heard the Gospel, and saw the Spirit working in the life of Believers. They doing what they saw real believers doing but they never had a saving knowledge of Christ.
Another key word in understanding who is being described here is the word “tasted.” That word alone should be a clue for us to understand.
They only “tasted” or “sampled” Christ. They were never truly converted to faith in Him. That would be like comparing several dates with someone as being married to them. Two very different contexts because there is a lake of commitment in dating someone as opposed to being married to them.
This is seen in the not uncommon situation people who have been in a church for many years, been involved in many things, never missed a service, yet are not saved. IT would also speak to the actions of the person you spoke of who was involved in the Billy Graham program. They’ve been “enlightened” by seeing God at work, but only just “tasted” what was going on, never really being a part of it. They most likely would have even partaken of the Lord’s Supper, as the wording in the passage suggests. But they were never really saved. To sort of paraphrase Scripture, they were “in the church, but not of the Church.”
Listen folks....being a member of a church only does one thing. It gives you the right to vote at business meetings!!!
So to be a member of a church, and be “enlightened” by the life of the Church and seeing God at work, doesn’t guarantee salvation. Neither does being baptized, for that matter. “Enlightened” does not necessarily mean “saved.”
Without a doubt we need doctrine for salvation (we can’t have faith in just anything, can we?), we aren’t saved by a doctrinal understanding or doctrinal authority
.
Now the question is, “If the ‘they’ is someone who has ‘tasted’ of the Church, has seen what has been going on and seen God at work, has been ‘in the church, but not of the Church,’ what exactly have they ‘fallen away’ from that they can’t be 'renew[ed] again to repentance’? And doesn’t that imply that they were originally brought to repentance?
As for “crucify again the Son of God” and putting Him to an open shame, this is similar to the warning given in Hebrews 10:26-29 :.........
26" For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?"
If someone leaves the Church because they don’t feel that Jesus is the Christ or that He is the only Way, it is as if they “trample the Son of God underfoot,” and count Christ’s sacrifice a “common thing.” What those who fall away have done, after having received the knowledge of the truth (being “enlightened”) and have gone beyond the point of repentance by rejecting God’s Son, is they have joined the ranks of those who rejected Him and sentenced Him to death; in effect, “they crucify again for themselves the Son of God.” They would, if they were there, have joined the crowd who chanted, “Give us Barabbas!” “Give me something else!” is what the person is saying in abandoning Christ.
Even the leaders in Jesus’ day knew He was from God, but declared Him otherwise when they strived to put Him on the Cross. Those who fall away after experiencing the truth of Christ join the religious leaders of Christ’s day, in their crucifying again for themselves the Son of God.
Yet, as Hebrews 10:29 says, the punishment will be much worse for those who abandon their confession.
How do we know those who belong to God?
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every Christian shall be known by their fruits that they bear. No fruit no child of God. A good tree can
NEVER produce bad fruit, because their life comes from Christ not them selfs. Their fruit is the
product of the seed of the Word of God, not man.
There are four different types of people that are found in the Church today. Only one of them are true
Christians, the rest are false brothers who only imitate the real. Fruit that these people bring forth is
the key to recognizing them. Jesus said that the parable of the sower is the most important parable of
any others, and if we do not understand this one we will not understand any others. The entire new
testament is based on this one parable. Miss this one we will not understand most of the New
Testament. The letters and epistles of the New Testament were written to the Churches, yet with in
these Churches there are four different types of people in which they were written to. If we don't
recognize these people we will think all the letters and epistles were written to only the born again
saints. If we will do not understand who these people are we will come up all kinds of crazy ideas about
our salvation. Here is Jesus's interpretation of this parable.
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
(Person #1 They hear the Word, the Devil steals the Word. Never gets saved, No fruit)
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
(Person #2 Receives the Word. Never produces any fruit because they have no roots to bear fruit. )
Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
(Person #3 Hear the Word, but is choked by the things of this world. Never produces fruit)
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
(Person #4 hears the Word, understands it, keeps the Word, and brings forth fruit. A true Christian.)
When we read the Bible these four different types of people can be spotted in the letters and epistles written by the Apostles. The Lord knew there would be those who call themselves Brothers, or Saints in the Churches, but are not. These people fall away all the time, because they never produced any fruit in their life's. These letters and epistles were written in an attempt to get them to commit to Christ, and do what is right. Even in the Book of Revelations, Jesus was warning them about these people, and that they needed to do somethings to become real Saints, not in name only. Those who belong to Christ have no worries about their salvation. They are secure in Christ, because Christ can not fail as he is our life.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every Christian shall be known by their fruits that they bear. No fruit no child of God. A good tree can
NEVER produce bad fruit, because their life comes from Christ not them selfs. Their fruit is the
product of the seed of the Word of God, not man.
There are four different types of people that are found in the Church today. Only one of them are true
Christians, the rest are false brothers who only imitate the real. Fruit that these people bring forth is
the key to recognizing them. Jesus said that the parable of the sower is the most important parable of
any others, and if we do not understand this one we will not understand any others. The entire new
testament is based on this one parable. Miss this one we will not understand most of the New
Testament. The letters and epistles of the New Testament were written to the Churches, yet with in
these Churches there are four different types of people in which they were written to. If we don't
recognize these people we will think all the letters and epistles were written to only the born again
saints. If we will do not understand who these people are we will come up all kinds of crazy ideas about
our salvation. Here is Jesus's interpretation of this parable.
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
(Person #1 They hear the Word, the Devil steals the Word. Never gets saved, No fruit)
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
(Person #2 Receives the Word. Never produces any fruit because they have no roots to bear fruit. )
Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
(Person #3 Hear the Word, but is choked by the things of this world. Never produces fruit)
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
(Person #4 hears the Word, understands it, keeps the Word, and brings forth fruit. A true Christian.)
When we read the Bible these four different types of people can be spotted in the letters and epistles written by the Apostles. The Lord knew there would be those who call themselves Brothers, or Saints in the Churches, but are not. These people fall away all the time, because they never produced any fruit in their life's. These letters and epistles were written in an attempt to get them to commit to Christ, and do what is right. Even in the Book of Revelations, Jesus was warning them about these people, and that they needed to do somethings to become real Saints, not in name only. Those who belong to Christ have no worries about their salvation. They are secure in Christ, because Christ can not fail as he is our life.
I should not say that Mark 4 has "NOTHING IN the World to do with aionios Zoe................ Lots to do with Salvation (healed delivered)
The Parable is........... The Sower sows the Word.
It goes through how Satan can make the Word of God inefective in our life.
Those that produced fruit, but their own things (Greek for Lust) entered in and chocked the Word. Satan could not jsut steal it, Could not just show them an evil report for the Word sake and they gave up (Offended) but could introduce what looked like good things, and pull them away form the Word.
Some though produced 30,60, 100 fold........... According the measure they gave. The Word produced faith and it starts by planting the seed, like a small mustard seed. By giving measure to what you hear, more is given, God gives the increase and that mustard seed grows into a big tree that provides protection....... (The birds can hang out in)
ya, it could be for eternal life, but Jesu said these things are done in parable and only those who have ears to hear will understand. there are lots of parables that cover lots of things.
The sower that sows the Word is the master Parable, for Jesus said if you don't know this, how will you know "ALL" parables.
This is why I don't care for OSAS type doctrines, Trinity Doctrins, the suffering for Jesus doctrines, and the list is long.
These doctines make folks think all the scriptures refer to "THEIR" doctrine they are stuck in.
Like the guy who tried to tell us to keep the Sabbath.......... Everything in scripture looked like it was telling us to keep the Sabbath to him. Poor soul........... confused.
What did Jesus say to those that cast out devils and performed mighty works in his name but did not have good fruit...........
I don't have a doctrine that we can just "loose" our salvation........ So I never mentioned that scripture to make my point as many do who try to combat the OSAS doctrine.
It looks like a good one for those who don't believe in OSAS, but it has nothing to do with Eternal Life in God.
We have some folks that operated in the Holhy Spirit, they did might works based on a free gift. It's clear they had been saved, a only folks who can call God father can ask for the Holy Spirit to do such works. They did their own thing and worked iniquity.
Anomia means to work without law, or ignorant of.......... Violation of law.
They operated in the Holy Spirit, without any thought to the plan of God and did their own thing without direction. It could be evil things, or it could be good without considering what God wanted.
Jesus said these folks will not rule in Heaven or have a place to rule. Depart from me, I don't know you.
Jesus never said anything about not being Born again, or having to go to Hell.
Now we can comapre I don't know you to Jesus not confessing us before His father and angels in Rev, and blotting out our name from the book of Life, or we can compare that their works were burned up by fire but they were saved as if by fire.
This is why there is so much contention about the OSAS doctrine, because I can counter it or defend it depending on which way you want to go.
What is clear though. Those that have tasted the good things to come have been santified by the Holy Spirit and decided to walk away from that after knowing the truth. There is no more sacrifice remaining for them. Man has a choice to not want the free gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus, to sever another god.
Be blessed...........
I agree Major, that having an agenda does cloud the Word and makes it hard to see what is there.
One reason I don't have a doctrine on this subject and most subjects.
I did not use the many scriptures others use to prove the OSAS model as being wrong, simply because all those scriptures they use don't mean what they think.
A child of God can't just stop being a child of God. Nobody can take us out of the Fathers hand.
It would appear only the most mentally unstabe would later decide not to want Jesus. How can they be faulted for such mental sickness? I personaly can't concieve of walking out my door knowing the Lord is not with me that day......... Who in their right mind would want that?
However, John warns about Idols, saying there is "A" sin unto death. Hebrews says there is "A" sin of counting the blood coveant by which a person was santified a unholy thing once they know and come to the knowledge of the truth.
This is where I have the issue.........
You listed good reasons and specualted that possibly a person never really got saved, but just ran through the motions.
I submit to you that the person was santified by that truth they heard, and later walked away to serve another god. This is why John warned to stay away from Idols because John said all sin is unrighteousness, but there is "A" Sin unto death, don't even pray for someone that did that.
So I have to ask, does a man still have a free will once saved, and can the man decided later to reject the free gift for something else?
Not God's fault, but the mans choice?
If man has the ability to choose Jesus by the Hearing of faith, then would not the same man have the ability to walk away?
I think it's a insane idea, but can a person let in darkness so long that it leads them to make such a choice? We have lots of warnings about staying away from false doctrines and doctrines of devils. Holding fast to the faith, fighting the good fight of fath. Not to give place tot he devil.
Does my stance on man having free will cloud the way I am reading these passages?
There are two many "IF's" here Major and to much speculation not to keep our guard up.
he that overcomes, I will not blot their name out of the book of life..........
What's that mean? Are there two books, just life to rule later?
Sounds like a bad thing to have your name removed though.
I do agree, doctrines do cloud ones ability to read the Word. I believe though if we want the truth we can at least see there might be something to some of these scriptures telling us don't go that way.
Be blessed Major.
1st You said...........
"There are two many "IF's" here Major and to much speculation not to keep our guard up."
Absolutely correct!
Proverbs 4:23.........
“Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life”.
Just like your physical body, if your heart—your spiritual heart—dies, your leadership dies.
Then.....
"So I have to ask, does a man still have a free will once saved, and can the man decided later to reject the free gift for something else?"
Deut. 30:11-19 gives us a really good example I think...............
"Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live".
Doesn't that tell us that whether we are blessed or cursed depends on what we choose to do. God sets before us the possibilities of life and death, but we decide which possibilities we shall realize. But to equate FREE WILL with the ability to reject the gift of God is a very far reach IMO. It still goes back to the fact that IF that person had in fact been saved, why would he even want to consider a freedom of choice decision to reject that salvation. In other words, how could he reject something that he NEVER had and call that rejection "Freedom of Choice"????
IMO that would be more in line with the LOST condition of that person's soul. IF he had been truly saved, he would have not need nor desire to make that rejection at all.
Luke 6:45 goes on to teach us that..........
"The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart”.
No further explanation for the fruit is necessary. Jesus teaches that “out of the heart” all “evil thoughts,” as well as “murder, adultery, and sexual immorality” come and that is found in Matt. 15:19.
Yes sir! We are in agreement!
Comment was..............
"he that overcomes, I will not blot their name out of the book of life.........."!
I believe that you are referring to Rev. 3:5. CONTEXT!
I see again that you as well as many other Christians erroneously believe that everyone who was ever written in the Book of Life is saved, thus the question "how are names blotted out of the Book of Life?" But this is not the case. Since from God's Word we know that names obviously can be blotted out of the Book of Life, and that some names were never in the Book of Life, it is clear that this represents the Covenant congregation.
God's Word also clearly illustrates that salvation is eternal and cannot be lost, thus we are brought to the conclusion that the book cannot possibly be exclusive to God's elect. This being the case, the only other Biblical, rational and logical conclusion is that it is a list of all the congregation that represents the Kingdom of life. Which would follow since the Bible plainly teaches that every person that is brought into the Covenant Kingdom, is not truly saved.
1st Corinthians 3:11-13 ................
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."
OK, so you read as "Being Santified by the Coveant" Is not someone really "Saved" if they leave.
The other thought is that a person would have to be completly insane to want to leave, so could not have been in their right mind to start.
Then John warns about the same thing........ Leaving for another god (Idol)
ummm........... I don't know Major. One has to wonder if a person can start out with full open Heart for God, then can it be possible for the enemy to slowly lead them right out of the pen.
Even the younger son that left, God said they were dead, but now found. I know believers can leave off to do their own thing, that does not make them believers anymore, just disobedient children. Still, what does God mean by dead............ Can't be a good thing.
I'll just have to conclude that you see horse, and I see a zebra instead. They look alike, just differnt color.
If we both ministered together the message would be the same........ Don't leave God, don't look at Allah as He is no god. We know that doing so, does not end well. Just how bad it ends, will be different.
Be blessed.
- Status