Agreed!
Daniel 9
- Thread starter AllieWi
- Start date
Agreed!
Yeah I also do not ascribe to the popular idea of the"10 lost tribes" (as with the British Israelite doctrine)...there are remnants of every tribe among us today (some do not practice Judaism and some are thought of as gentiles). But as for acculturated people (totally blended in to another culture) see the Lemba for an example.
It seems that we have had a lot of time to kick around verses 7-9, what say we consider 10-14 of Daniel 9.
Daniel 9:10-14
English Standard Version (ESV)
10" and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God by walking in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned aside, refusing to obey your voice. And the curse and oath that are written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out upon us, because we have sinned against him. 12 He has confirmed his words, which he spoke against us and against our rulers who ruled us,[a] by bringing upon us a great calamity. For under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what has been done against Jerusalem. 13 As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this calamity has come upon us; yet we have not entreated the favor of the Lord our God, turning from our iniquities and gaining insight by your truth. 14 Therefore the Lord has kept ready the calamity and has brought it upon us, for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works that he has done, and we have not obeyed his voice."
WHY??? What was the reason for the judgment that fell on Israel???
Nehemiah 9:26
English Standard Version (ESV)
26 “Nevertheless, they were disobedient and rebelled against you and cast your law behind their back and killed your prophets, who had warned them in order to turn them back to you, and they committed great blasphemies".
Nehemiah 9:27
English Standard Version (ESV)
27 Therefore you gave them into the hand of their enemies, who made them suffer. And in the time of their suffering they cried out to you and you heard them from heaven, and according to your great mercies you gave them saviors who saved them from the hand of their enemies.
Jeremiah 11:8
English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but everyone walked in the stubbornness of his evil heart. Therefore I brought upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do, but they did not.”
As a result of neglecting God's law, judgment and persecution came upon them just as God had promised them that it would.
The judgment of God is not always fast and swift but it is always going to take place exactly as He tells us.
A child in a candy store puts a piece of candy in his pocket and walks out of the door. No one saw him and he says to himself....
That was really easy. Next day he does the same thing except it is not a piece of candy but a bag of candy. Same thing, nothing happens. Then the 3rd day he does the same thing except he takes a whole carton of candy and walks out of the door.
This time however the police are standing there waiting on him and BOOM! Judgment falls. Judgment is not always fast, but it is always SURE.
But, even in the middle of all that, as Daniel says, the people refused to pray or to turn from their iniquities and understand the truth of God's Word.(vs 13).
That is the same problem we have today. There is a Bible in every hotel and motel and in every home. The problem is that no one read it to find the truth of What God has in store for all of us. We tend to believe what some tells us or what we see on TV instead of reading the Word of God for ourselves.
The contrast was that God is righteous but as Daniel had to confess, the people had disobeyed God's voice which always brings judgment.
The least read best seller ever printed....
Ok I seeOk guys what scripture are we on? Kind of help me get focused ..if you can?
What relation to idol worship was related to their disobedience?
Seems to me, I heard they are no longer putting Gideon's bible in hotel/motel rooms. Last time I stayed in one, there wasn't a bible. (a year ago?). Great post Major! Can you give me a timeline for Israel constantly disobeying with what Daniel is saying? It seems to me they did tthat alot for a long time.
Excellent question. Jeremiah seems to sum it up.
Jeremiah 10:1-5
Hear the word that the Lord speaks to you, O house of Israel. 2 Thus says the Lord: “Learn not the way of the nations,
nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them,3 for the customs of the peoples are vanity.
A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman.4 They decorate it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move. 5 Their idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field,
and they cannot speak; they have to be carried, for they cannot walk. Do not be afraid of them,for they cannot do evil,
neither is it in them to do good.”
Jeremiah charges them with the fallacy of worshiping idols. They manufactured gods out of the trees of the woods and then covered them with silver and gold. Sounds a lot like Christmas trees to me.
These man made gods were speechless and impotent like scarecrows in a field.
Another great question. I sure hope we have some people out there who can respond to these questions.
I just read a little and according to 2 Kgs. 24:12-16, after they arrived in Babylon, the prophet Jeremiah wrote them a letter telling them to build houses and plant gardens. In other words, you are going to be here for awhile. He prophesied, "For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place" (Jer. 29:10).
The books of 2 Chronicles and 2 Kings deal with much of the time leading up to fall of both the Northern Kingdom and Judah. They also cover the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar and the beginning of the Babylonian captivity. Jeremiah was one of the prophets during the time leading up to the fall of Jerusalem and the exile, and Ezekiel and Daniel were written while the Jews were in exile. Ezra deals with the return of the Jews as promised over 70 years before by God through the prophets Jeremiah and Isaiah. The book of Nehemiah also covers the return and rebuilding of Jerusalem after the exile was over.
The Babylonian captivity had one very significant impact on the nation of Israel when it returned to the land—it would never again be corrupted by the idolatry and false gods of the surrounding nations. A revival among Jews took place after the return of the Jews to Israel and the rebuilding of the temple. We see those accounts in Ezra and Nehemiah as the nation would once again return to the God who had delivered them from their enemies. The 70 years of captivity was the judgment from God because they also broke the Sabbath law for 490 years. They failed to keep the Sabbath for 490 years. 490 divided by 7 is 490. (7 days to a week includes 1 Sabbath per week.)
Just as God had promised through the prophet Jeremiah, God judged the Babylonians for their sins, and the Babylonian Empire fell to the armies of Persia in 539 B.C., once again proving God’s promises to be true.
The seventy-year period of the Babylonian captivity is an important part of Israel’s history, and Christians should be familiar with it. Like many other Old Testament events, this historical account demonstrates God’s faithfulness to His people, His judgment of sin, and the surety of His promises. There is a lot more at: http://www.gotquestions.org/Babylonian-captivity-exile.html#ixzz2xrE4gQdg
In the Hebrew, Jeremiah 25:11 refers to “nations” (plural) and does not specify Israel at all. This is because the actual captivity of Jews in Babylon did not begin in 586 B.C., it began with the historically and archaeologically validated battle of Carchemish during the time of King Jehoiakim (also Jeconiah). Josephus, Antiquities, 10.11.1 quotes from the records of the Babylonian historian Berossus where he tells us of the battle in which Nebuchadnezzar defeated Egypt in 605 B.C. (when he was co-regent) and took captives of the Egyptians, the Syrians, the Phoenicians, and the Jews.
It was during this first phase of the Captivity that Daniel and his friends were captured and carried away from Jerusalem (Daniel 1:1). King Jehoiakim (Jehoiachin’s father) became a puppet king and servant of Nebuchadnezzar for three years before he plotted against him and was found out (2 Kings 24), it then followed that Jehoiachin became King in his father’s stead and reigned about eight years when Jerusalem was then besieged and the treasures of the Holy City were claimed as booty and taken with about 10,000 more people, including the King Jehoiachin and all his officers and family, back to Babylon. But this was not the end of the matter for Nebuchadnezzar then appointed Zedekiah the King (around 597 B.C.) and he reigned for 11 years (2 Kings 24:17-18). This fact is also historically confirmed archaeologically in “The Babylonian Chronicles” which say:
“He camped against the city of Judah and on the second day of the Month of Adar he captured the city and seized its King. A King of his own choice he appointed in the city and taking the vast tribute brought it back to Babylon.”
These final events of 586 B.C. indicated in Jeremiah 34, are confirmed historically and archaeologically by “the Lachish Letters”.
Now as to the time element of the alleged discrepancy, the error was purposely imposed by the self-professed Higher Critics knowing full well that most modern and western lay-scholars who inquire will judge the time thing according to our sense of reckoning time. The problem is that different peoples have different cultural ways of thinking about time, not every culture is minute/hour ridden in such a literal and obsessive/compulsive way we westerners have. These self-professed “Higher” Critics rely on the “ignorance of the masses” principle to fool people.
Their argument then continues when they declare, "I understand your reasoning but it seems to me that that explanation then, is inconsistent with 2 chronicles 36:20-21 which says: he (Nebuchadnezzar) took into exile in Babylon those who had escaped the sword, and they became servants to him and his sons until the establishment of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfill the word of the lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years". Chronicles establishes specific boundaries of the seventy years and those boundaries fly in the face of historical fact....isn't 2 chronicles relevant or do you persist in the argument that the captivity started earlier?
So my brethren, do not be fooled, Chronicles is relevant, and I persist in my position, and here is why:
It appears to me that this understanding comes by the following misconceptions. First that to fulfill the prophecy of Leviticus,
Then the land will enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies’ land; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it (Lev. 26:34-35).
For the land shall be abandoned by them, and shall make up for its sabbaths while it is made desolate without them. They, meanwhile, shall be making amends for their iniquity, because they rejected My ordinances and their soul abhorred My statutes (Lev. 26:43).
…it appears these critics either think God must, or is stating that He will, make up for every one of the Sabbatical years they missed in a wooden literal sense. Now indeed they violated 490 years of Sabbatical years (70 in all), neither did they free their slaves at those times (Jeremiah 34:13-17) as the ordinance of God dictated. It should not be assumed, by the same type of reasoning, that the land itself would have to have laid fallow and unused for an entire 70 years to fulfill the 2 Chronicles 36 reference (which it does not). Neither of these two most common assumptions are correct!
Nebuchadnezzar did in fact unknowingly finally carry them away in retribution for these violations, and that by these years the 70 years were fulfilled, but it wasn’t necessary to have the land lay fallow and unused for the full 70 years (which would be 10 sabbatical years, or a fallow unused year for each of the violated sabbatical years), only that there would be 1 year of captivity as punishment for each of the violated Sabbatical years (70 in all), which began with the captivity of the people in the time of Daniel…and that “…all the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath” was still true, only the cycle of renewal of the land regarding Sabbatical years, based on the Law of Jubilees, beginning the first year (year 50) following a cycle of 7 Sabbatical cycles (49 years), only requires 50 of the total number of years. So after what could represent an unobserved violated grand Jubilee (490 years), God not only freed the slaves of Israel, and in just exchange enslaved their unjust masters, but also restored a full Jubilee cycle (50 years within the 70) to renew the land. Each of the 70 years being 1 year of punishment on the people for each of the Sabbatical years that they had violated, and for not obeying His ordinances and statutes
It was during this first phase of the Captivity that Daniel and his friends were captured and carried away from Jerusalem (Daniel 1:1). King Jehoiakim (Jehoiachin’s father) became a puppet king and servant of Nebuchadnezzar for three years before he plotted against him and was found out (2 Kings 24), it then followed that Jehoiachin became King in his father’s stead and reigned about eight years when Jerusalem was then besieged and the treasures of the Holy City were claimed as booty and taken with about 10,000 more people, including the King Jehoiachin and all his officers and family, back to Babylon. But this was not the end of the matter for Nebuchadnezzar then appointed Zedekiah the King (around 597 B.C.) and he reigned for 11 years (2 Kings 24:17-18). This fact is also historically confirmed archaeologically in “The Babylonian Chronicles” which say:
“He camped against the city of Judah and on the second day of the Month of Adar he captured the city and seized its King. A King of his own choice he appointed in the city and taking the vast tribute brought it back to Babylon.”
These final events of 586 B.C. indicated in Jeremiah 34, are confirmed historically and archaeologically by “the Lachish Letters”.
Now as to the time element of the alleged discrepancy, the error was purposely imposed by the self-professed Higher Critics knowing full well that most modern and western lay-scholars who inquire will judge the time thing according to our sense of reckoning time. The problem is that different peoples have different cultural ways of thinking about time, not every culture is minute/hour ridden in such a literal and obsessive/compulsive way we westerners have. These self-professed “Higher” Critics rely on the “ignorance of the masses” principle to fool people.
Their argument then continues when they declare, "I understand your reasoning but it seems to me that that explanation then, is inconsistent with 2 chronicles 36:20-21 which says: he (Nebuchadnezzar) took into exile in Babylon those who had escaped the sword, and they became servants to him and his sons until the establishment of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfill the word of the lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years". Chronicles establishes specific boundaries of the seventy years and those boundaries fly in the face of historical fact....isn't 2 chronicles relevant or do you persist in the argument that the captivity started earlier?
So my brethren, do not be fooled, Chronicles is relevant, and I persist in my position, and here is why:
It appears to me that this understanding comes by the following misconceptions. First that to fulfill the prophecy of Leviticus,
Then the land will enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies’ land; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it (Lev. 26:34-35).
For the land shall be abandoned by them, and shall make up for its sabbaths while it is made desolate without them. They, meanwhile, shall be making amends for their iniquity, because they rejected My ordinances and their soul abhorred My statutes (Lev. 26:43).
…it appears these critics either think God must, or is stating that He will, make up for every one of the Sabbatical years they missed in a wooden literal sense. Now indeed they violated 490 years of Sabbatical years (70 in all), neither did they free their slaves at those times (Jeremiah 34:13-17) as the ordinance of God dictated. It should not be assumed, by the same type of reasoning, that the land itself would have to have laid fallow and unused for an entire 70 years to fulfill the 2 Chronicles 36 reference (which it does not). Neither of these two most common assumptions are correct!
Nebuchadnezzar did in fact unknowingly finally carry them away in retribution for these violations, and that by these years the 70 years were fulfilled, but it wasn’t necessary to have the land lay fallow and unused for the full 70 years (which would be 10 sabbatical years, or a fallow unused year for each of the violated sabbatical years), only that there would be 1 year of captivity as punishment for each of the violated Sabbatical years (70 in all), which began with the captivity of the people in the time of Daniel…and that “…all the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath” was still true, only the cycle of renewal of the land regarding Sabbatical years, based on the Law of Jubilees, beginning the first year (year 50) following a cycle of 7 Sabbatical cycles (49 years), only requires 50 of the total number of years. So after what could represent an unobserved violated grand Jubilee (490 years), God not only freed the slaves of Israel, and in just exchange enslaved their unjust masters, but also restored a full Jubilee cycle (50 years within the 70) to renew the land. Each of the 70 years being 1 year of punishment on the people for each of the Sabbatical years that they had violated, and for not obeying His ordinances and statutes
Brother Paul - you continue to awe me. I could just read you all day (you too Major!)
Weez just OLD...I've been in the Spirit (and He in me) over 30 years...how about you?
Thought I would post the KJV to get a little different reading?
Jer 10:1 ¶ Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
You know the New Testament teaches that covetousness is Idolatry? Its hard to see sometimes but when we understand its Gods will to give us every good thing..we are able to overcome our desire to have and begin to trust that He is always willing to give. I think James is speaking to this? "you have not because you ask not, you ask and receive not because you would spend it on your own lust" Its a hard thing to judge the thoughts and intentions of our own hearts.. The truth of the Word is our only hope.
I think the point of Daniel's repentant confession before the Lord was because he was painfully aware of the Lord's just decision to let this happen. When we read Kings and Chronicles it is a continuous testimony of God keeping His end of the cobe=venant and every time He would bring them back and forgive them, as soon as they became fat in His mercy they would cease giving Him the glory and go back to doing what is right in their own eyes (doing all sorts of evil in the sight of the Lord)...idolatry of course (spiritual adultery) being the worst expression of that, The one He could least tolerate. Doing what was right in their own eyes is the House of Israel deciding what was good and evil for themselves disregarding His warnings of consequence (His words)...it is so for our example.
Daniel has read "the books" (like Isaiah and Jeremiah) he knew there was still a time to go but that the Lord would restore them...once again but in the end they would also once again go their own way (as there own gods - Genesis 2:5)
Daniel has read "the books" (like Isaiah and Jeremiah) he knew there was still a time to go but that the Lord would restore them...once again but in the end they would also once again go their own way (as there own gods - Genesis 2:5)
"fat in His mercy" is that a quote Brother Paul or your understanding from the overall reading?
Neither...its just that when all is going really well and people are getting their own way they tend to forget (like Hosea's wife) that it is God who supplies the basis of the blessings (all good and perfect gifts come from the Father of lights)....
I know this is kinda off topic, but here is the USA I see this today...
We are living in the time when God has not done the apparent to most people in the world, since CHrist, and people are reaping much they have not sown and say like Peter tells us (paraphrasing) "Where is this God and His alleged coming? Things continue as they always have. People marry and are given in marriage, they buy and sell, and so on..."! The lack of God's abrupt and immediate interventions has them thinking
a) God is tolerant (or approving) of our sin
b) there is no real consequence of our sin, or
c) there is no God
And so evil and sin, in such periods becomes more and more common...even our leaders chuckle at sin and our priests poo poo sin and get in bed with the political leaders and scratch at itching ears...woe unto us....for one day when we are not expecting it judgment shall come. And when it comes do people blame themselves? NO! They blame others and sometimes shake their fists at the God they never listened to.
brother Paul
I know this is kinda off topic, but here is the USA I see this today...
We are living in the time when God has not done the apparent to most people in the world, since CHrist, and people are reaping much they have not sown and say like Peter tells us (paraphrasing) "Where is this God and His alleged coming? Things continue as they always have. People marry and are given in marriage, they buy and sell, and so on..."! The lack of God's abrupt and immediate interventions has them thinking
a) God is tolerant (or approving) of our sin
b) there is no real consequence of our sin, or
c) there is no God
And so evil and sin, in such periods becomes more and more common...even our leaders chuckle at sin and our priests poo poo sin and get in bed with the political leaders and scratch at itching ears...woe unto us....for one day when we are not expecting it judgment shall come. And when it comes do people blame themselves? NO! They blame others and sometimes shake their fists at the God they never listened to.
brother Paul
NOT off topic in any way IMHO!
IT is the focus of study when we dig into Daniel, especially chapter #9 my friend.
I agree with you completely! I am reminded of the words of Isaiah in 30:9..........
"That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the Law of the Lord.
Which say to the seers, SEE NOT, and to the prophets, PROPHESY NOT UNTO US RIGHT THINGS, SPEAK UNTO US SMOOTH THINGS, PROPHESY DECEITS".
We are Americans are just like the people of Isaiah's day. The congregations in every single church in America when the preacher preaches on SIN, the people in the pews are convinced that he is talking to every one else in the room, certainly not them.
To them.....preaching on abortion is great..............until their daughter has one then it is SHUT UP PREACHER.
To them.....preaching on murder is great................until their son is put in jail for murder and then it is SHUT UP PREACHER.
To them.....preaching on pornography is great.......until it is found on their computer and then it is SHUT UP PREACHER.
To them.....preaching on homosexuality is great....until their son comes out of the closet and then it is SHUT UP PREACHER.
These people then stop giving to the church or stop coming altogether. These people then apply so much pressure on the Pastors of churches to preach "smooth" things" and to lie that the men become disenchanted and seek employment else wares to get away from the stress.
That is NOT my opinion my dear forum friends so PLEASE do not try to disagree and make some condescending comment. This is not open for disagreement. That is straight from some of my dearest friends who are and were Pastors of churches all over this great land of America who I have personal communicated with, counseled with and prayed for.
Their choice was to keep hammering the truth of God's Word or alter it into things like the "Word of Faith" or" Gospel of wealth, name it and claim it........or leave the ministry. The great majority left. That is a fact!!!
In the state of Florida, every year.....1500 Church Pastors are either fired or resign from their church. 1500 a year!!!!
That again is a fact not my opinion. It comes directly from the records of the Southern Baptist Convention of America.
So Paul.........Instead of being off focus or target, I say to you that it is right on target for our discussion!!
I would agree in large part Bro Paul...and no doubt one could look at the example of the condition of Gods people in the time of the Prophets and in our time and make some reasonable conclusions. I like to consider the scripture that declares that the heart is deceptive above all things? Now this is very true for those who do not have a "new" heart and have not had the stony heart replaced by that heart that has the law of God written upon it...which is the Spirit of God that cries Abba and sheds Gods love abroad in our heart. What we also know that much that is called by His Name is really not of Him..but is very much of the old order and of the flesh of man. I don't want to beat this point up too much but just to say as a witness to the truth, that I did not know "goodness" until Gods Mercy taught me goodness, I did not know holiness until Gods Spirit made me holy. True grace is not a doctrine it is a Spirit and those who are taught by true grace are empowered unto godliness. There is much darkness in the world and much in what is called by His Name, but the only hope is in the sons of Light and they are in fact taught by Gods mercy. So yes, for those who walk in darkness your point should bring fear and a consideration, but to those who love truth and light "all the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth"
I honestly don't remember a time I didn't know God existed, that Christ was God in the flesh. I don't think I really understood the Holy Spirit (growing up we called it the Holy Ghost). I think I misidentified it in myself as the "good me" giving myself credit I didn't deserve.