Daniel 9

[Major]

I think I mention this was another topic for another day? But you seemed to want to continue on the issue?

Agreed...........what say we continue with Daniel 9:7 fro our sister who asked to study the 9th chapter od Daniel.

Daniel 9:7-9 would then be the next set of verses to study, comment on and pray about.

"O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day--to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You. 8 O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him."

Daniel is acknowledging God's righteous activities in scattering His people of Israel. They got exactly what they deserved. All the classes of Israel were involved in wickedness, but Daniel reminded God of His attributes of mercies and forgivenesses.

I love the fact that Daniel doesn't put even a hint of blame on the Lord. He knows that God is righteous, and they had been unrighteous. He knows that God is faithful, and they have been unfaithful. They were driven from the land because of their behavior.
Many people look at bad circumstances and immediately blame God.

How many of us have talked to others and listened to others and encouraged them to come to Christ and they refused. Then when tragedy strikes, who is they blame first by saying.........."O God, why have you done this?"

How many times have we all heard the phrase, "How could a God of love allow that little child to die or all of those perish in an earthquake...?" But the fact is, there are consequences for sin. There are too many times that people have blamed God for a bad situation, when in reality, it was their own sin that took them there.

Daniel acknowledges that their captivity was their fault, not God's. The shame for this terrible predicament was upon Israel's face, not the Lord's.

What say all of you?????????????????

 

[Major]

No I was just giving her information...and then it started a spiral off the OP...and yes this would be an interesting topic but we probably would agree much more than we differ...though we both hold scripture as the truth and the final authority in all matter of faith and doctrine, we might have some differences because I sense as a witness you would trust the opinions (by consensus) of the modernist Critical School, where I would trust as a witness the history passed down and found recorded in the earliest church writings (regarding the history of events that is).

But Paul.......I assume you mean the Word of God since it is the only "inspired record of history"...... the Bible?

Bro. Paul.....are you suggesting that the Talmud and Targums be placed on the same level as the Bible?

Maybe I am not understanding your point here. I did vote for Richard Nixon some time ago, so it could be me.

 

[Brother Paul]

Thank you Paul.....that was going to be my point to you as well as my friend Mitspa.

Fair! Love you guys. Hope it was helpful Allie...

 

[Brother Paul]

But Paul.......I assume you mean the Word of God since it is the only "inspired record of history"...... the Bible?

Bro. Paul.....are you suggesting that the Talmud and Targums be placed on the same level as the Bible?

Maybe I am not understanding your point here. I did vote for Richard Nixon some time ago, so it could be me.

Nixon...yes that explains it (LOL only kidding...what was your alternative McGovern?)...I have no idea what you were getting at on the first line, but no I was not suggesting any parallel...

I made it quite clear the scriptures are the final authority in ALL matters of faith and doctrine and I said the rabbinical school (of Judaism) holds the Targums and Talmud as Oral Torah...I do not.

But their commentary is still of interest and should be viewed when one has asked how the Jews view these things (since they after all are the Jews) wouldn't you say?

Her question in the OP was not for a Christian exegesis of the chapter...or "maybe I am not understanding your point here." Nixon...really? Don't feel bad I voted for him also, but only because he promised to end the Vietnam war...

brother Paul

 

[Silk]

Nixon...yes that explains it (LOL only kidding...what was your alternative McGovern?)...I have no idea what you were getting at on the first line, but no I was not suggesting any parallel...

I made it quite clear the scriptures are the final authority in ALL matters of faith and doctrine and I said the rabbinical school (of Judaism) holds the Targums and Talmud as Oral Torah...I do not.

But their commentary is still of interest and should be viewed when one has asked how the Jews view these things (since they after all are the Jews) wouldn't you say?

Her question in the OP was not for a Christian exegesis of the chapter...or "maybe I am not understanding your point here." Nixon...really? Don't feel bad I voted for him also, but only because he promised to end the Vietnam war...

brother Paul

ROFL My Mother voted for Nixon as well. We never let her forget it! I agree with you BroPaul - it is of interest. Still I want to discuss all of Daniel.

 

[AllieWi]

Scion of David is a phrase I myself coined. Scion is an old term used for a member of a most notable family. It also refers to a young plant (offshoot) or something chosen to graft (or root) and He is the root and the offshoot of Jesse. I was referring to "the son of David", Moschiach ben Dav-ed, the end time Messiah. (For us He is the same one who comes twice, for them two who come at different times)...

The OT does not really use the phrase "in the clouds" (which means from heaven) but Micah 5:2,3 (where He actually has been coming forth since eternity) along with Daniel 7 (where He is sent from the Ancient of Days) and Zechariah 12:10 (when they look upon Me who they have pierced and mourn for him...for NT see also Matt. 24:30, and Rev 1:7) all are passages they use to say Messiah, son of David comes at the end time and is sent from God (He is the one they are waiting for)...some thought as a human political warrior (like Hyracannus) other Rabbis as a god-like being...

What I found fascinating is the different Rabbinical views of their first Messiah...for example

Very early on (1st century), Rabbi Jonathan ben-Uzziel interprets, ‘ Behold the man Messiah’ (of Zechariah 6:12) and so it is said ‘ A man of pains and known to sickness (Isaiah 53).” He ties the two passages together as referring to the same messiah.

While at the beginning of the 2nd century, diaspora Rabbi Jose the Galilean, speaking of Messiah (called ben-Yosef), declared that “the Lord has made the iniquity of us all to meet on him“!

In the Talmud Sanhedrin 98b it is asked of “messiah,“…what is his shem? (name) The section goes on to say, that the Rabbis called him “the leperous one”. Some used the term “Cholaya”, because “Surely he has borne our sickness“! Note how this is a direct quotation from Isaiah 53? Please also note he is referring to an even earlier tradition. Rabbi Simeon speaking of Isaiah 53 took it even a step further when he said, “…whoever will not admit that Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities, must suffer them for himself…”. Yet after Rabbi Schlomo Yitzchaki (Raschi) came (11th century) all Rabbinical Jews say these things refer to the nation of Israel itself.

The ancient Jews always had three or four schools of thought going on, regarding what all these things mean (like the Schools of Shamai and Hiillel, the Saduccees, the Zadokites, etc.), who would debate the scriptures (much like Christians today) ... this "pilpul" (arguing or debate)...forms the basis of much of the Talmud.

brother Paul

Wow. How did you learn all this?

 

[Brother Paul]

I do not really know...the Spirit gave me a lot of material for prayer and then there was a lot of studying and asking a lot of questions, and digging for answers...I guess?!?

 

[Major]

Nixon...yes that explains it (LOL only kidding...what was your alternative McGovern?)...I have no idea what you were getting at on the first line, but no I was not suggesting any parallel...

I made it quite clear the scriptures are the final authority in ALL matters of faith and doctrine and I said the rabbinical school (of Judaism) holds the Targums and Talmud as Oral Torah...I do not.

But their commentary is still of interest and should be viewed when one has asked how the Jews view these things (since they after all are the Jews) wouldn't you say?

Her question in the OP was not for a Christian exegesis of the chapter...or "maybe I am not understanding your point here." Nixon...really? Don't feel bad I voted for him also, but only because he promised to end the Vietnam war...

brother Paul

Yes........I was right there in the middle of it and no there had a clue why we were there.

 

[Major]

Wow. How did you learn all this?

Today "goggle" is your friend. Many yeras ago before the internet, learning things and knowing stuff was through books, and teachers.

 

[AllieWi]

Today "goggle" is your friend. Many yeras ago before the internet, learning things and knowing stuff was through books, and teachers.

I should have been more specific. I know how to use google as a college grad and all..;-) I guess I wonder specifically where he gets his info because I trust you guys know which sites are reputable. There are a lot of conspiracy sites that I don't think are trustworthy.

 

[Major]

ROFL My Mother voted for Nixon as well. We never let her forget it! I agree with you BroPaul - it is of interest. Still I want to discuss all of Daniel.

It might help to realize that from Daniel 9:7 that there are no "lost tribes of Israel".

The People were scattered but not lost. Some were near Daniel there in Babylon and others were farther off but he knew where they were. Notice again that Daniel did not say "Lost", but scattered. That was again because of their tespasses against God.

 

[Major]

I should have been more specific. I know how to use google as a college grad and all..;-) I guess I wonder specifically where he gets his info because I trust you guys know which sites are reputable. There are a lot of conspiracy sites that I don't think are trustworthy.

That is of course the key.......knowing who is correct Biblically and who is just making opinions.

 

[Brother Paul]

I should have been more specific. I know how to use google as a college grad and all..;-) I guess I wonder specifically where he gets his info because I trust you guys know which sites are reputable. There are a lot of conspiracy sites that I don't think are trustworthy.

I never visit these...

 

[AllieWi]

Ps I'm still reading this thread and learning so thanks guys...sorry I'm not contributing but I don't know very much. I'm just soaking it all in

 

[Brother Paul]

It might help to realize that from Daniel 9:7 that there are no "lost tribes of Israel".

The People were scattered but not lost. Some were near Daniel there in Babylon and others were farther off but he knew where they were. Notice again that Daniel did not say "Lost", but scattered. That was again because of their tespasses against God.

I have to question this one...during the first (Assyrian Captivity) they were dispersed and scattered to the ends of the empire...a hundred years + had already passed. Many of the Kingdom of Israel had been "lost" for all intents and purposes (there was no e-mail or facebook)....God even says He sowed them in among the gentiles. For just two examples see

Hosea 7:8a - Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people (the goyim)…

Hosea 8:8 - Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.

Daniel was only concerned with those of the Kingdom of Judah captured by Nebuchadnezzar (all of whom did not return...some became a strong Rabbinical center others were acculturated)

Just my understanding

brother Paul

 

[dorian37grey]

It might help to realize that from Daniel 9:7 that there are no "lost tribes of Israel".

The People were scattered but not lost. Some were near Daniel there in Babylon and others were farther off but he knew where they were. Notice again that Daniel did not say "Lost", but scattered. That was again because of their tespasses against God.

the subject of "LOST TRIBES" isn't about lost to God's knowing ; it is about the loss of
1- nationality
2- and in time the people's knowing who they are

remember there are 2 kingdoms ; the northern and southern
and the Jews are the southern kingdom
whereas for example ;
Joseph (was never a Jew) the one sold into slavery
yet thru his sons was given promises ( birth-rite) from God
that the Jews just don't have

a commonwealth of nations ; owning the waterways of their enemies
are two examples of this

and in the DAYS of JESUS we see the example of the Samaritan women
* note the she is waiting for the Messiah?

how is it that she knows and yet is not a Jew?
answer; she is Israel; she is lost tribe

 

[Major]

the subject of "LOST TRIBES" isn't about lost to God's knowing ; it is about the loss of
1- nationality
2- and in time the people's knowing who they are

remember there are 2 kingdoms ; the northern and southern
and the Jews are the southern kingdom
whereas for example ;
Joseph (was never a Jew) the one sold into slavery
yet thru his sons was given promises ( birth-rite) from God
that the Jews just don't have

a commonwealth of nations ; owning the waterways of their enemies
are two examples of this

and in the DAYS of JESUS we see the example of the Samaritan women
* note the she is waiting for the Messiah?

how is it that she knows and yet is not a Jew?
answer; she is Israel; she is lost tribe

The point was simply that the tribes were not lost.

 

[Major]

I have to question this one...during the first (Assyrian Captivity) they were dispersed and scattered to the ends of the empire...a hundred years + had already passed. Many of the Kingdom of Israel had been "lost" for all intents and purposes (there was no e-mail or facebook)....God even says He sowed them in among the gentiles. For just two examples see

Hosea 7:8a - Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people (the goyim)…

Hosea 8:8 - Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.

Daniel was only concerned with those of the Kingdom of Judah captured by Nebuchadnezzar (all of whom did not return...some became a strong Rabbinical center others were acculturated)

Just my understanding

brother Paul

No problem for me brother. That is the purpose of talking out a Scripture.

Seems as if the Nation in Hosea did as Gomer had done earlier.

My point is that God still knew where they were.

 

[Major]

I have to question this one...during the first (Assyrian Captivity) they were dispersed and scattered to the ends of the empire...a hundred years + had already passed. Many of the Kingdom of Israel had been "lost" for all intents and purposes (there was no e-mail or facebook)....God even says He sowed them in among the gentiles. For just two examples see

Hosea 7:8a - Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people (the goyim)…

Hosea 8:8 - Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.

Daniel was only concerned with those of the Kingdom of Judah captured by Nebuchadnezzar (all of whom did not return...some became a strong Rabbinical center others were acculturated)

Just my understanding

brother Paul

It is my understanding that ALL the classes in Israel were involved in wickedness and Daniel was asking God for ALL of them that His mercies and foregivenesses be on them.

 

[Panda]

The point was simply that the tribes were not lost.

In this, I imagine "lost keys". I get the image that somehow God "lost" the tribe, and told the Prophet to have everyone get on their hands and knees, look under the couch and see if you can find them. It is a silly image, but displays a bit of a quirk of language. A group of people who are separated may seem lost to others, but certainly God knows where they are. When Jesus was "lost", Mary and Joseph were nearly panicked as most parents would be. But, He was only lost from their perspective. He knew exactly where He was, and He was exactly where He was supposed to be.