What Is God?
- Thread starter workmx
- Start date
Can't help you then.
Because sin causes death? Animals die because we do, too. The world is in disarray.
Yes. From you.
Yep.
There is no evidence for gods. That's all.
Sure there is. You just will not accept empirical evidence as valid…
Now consider what is empirical evidence…Empirical = based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic; originating in or based on observation or experience; relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory ; capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment.
Now no one can “prove” there is a God, gods, or anything outside of the natural order by merely natural means, again THAT”S ABSURD to even imagine such a thing….
So no one can “prove” by your limited definition of proof that there is a God but that however does not mean there is not evidence for such a being…
All we absolutely know for sure (scientifically speaking) is NO ONE can “prove” by any means (empirical or purely material) that there IS NO GOD…I am sure you agree with that (I hope)
Now listen carefully…because millions throughout the ages have personally experienced God (as well as other phenomena outside of what YOU would call the natural order), observed the effects of such a being, tested what He has claimed and found it to be true…(regardless of whether or not you have)! This historically verifiable fact alone (not even considering other things like the purely prescient nature of Biblical prophecy, and other matters) IS empirical evidence that there is a God…
Any open minded objective person with a shred of intellectual integrity cannot dismiss the mountain of empirical evidence and then accept and live by premises for which there is none and truly be a rational person…
I know you can rationalize, that’s not what I am saying, I am saying you accept a number of premises without a single shred of evidence they are true yet reject many for which there is evidence they are true…
Let me pose a scenario to you (all this by the way is to help you learn to actually use critical thinking not ever thinking up new criticisms, there is a stark difference)
All of science (and I KNOW this is a fact) and ALL scientists only experience, have ONLY observed, can ONLY demonstrate, and ALL tests done or devised ONLY show that life comes from previous life…
Evolutionary Biologists, Vance and Miller, in their book, Biology for You (Philadelphia, Lippincott, l963), admit that, “All the forms of plants and animals that we have studied in biology, produce their young from their own bodies, and in no other way“. Did you hear that? They said, “in no other way“!
The contemporary Encyclopedia Americana (Grolier, Scholastic, 2000) says, “Biologists are now not only in virtual unanimous agreement that all life derives from preceding life, but that the parent organism and it’s offspring are of the same kind“.
From this smattering of scientific testimony, a definite conclusion comes to light! Contrary to the popularized, politicized, neo-Darwinian dogma… within a given phyla, members only reproduce other members of the same phyla from relations with members of their own phyla! There simply are no biological examples of Darwin’s poly-phyletic morphism anywhere in the world after almost 200 years of alleged scientific consideration and 100 years of collecting fossilized examples. Never experienced, never observed, never demonstrated, and ALL tests refuting it…yet sold and imposed on innocently inquiring minds through drill and repetition that it is an established fact…
When Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s propaganda Minister, once said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State (or in this case the educational neo-Darwinian pedagogues) can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the (these power mongers) to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy …”
This is the case here…for if life ONLY comes from previous life then there was a life (a force; a quality of reality) that precedes what we know of as bios/life here on earth. In is an undeniable conclusion which MUST BE repressed and disallowed from the public awareness or else the whole neo-Darwinian house of cards falls…if life did not eventually evolve from non-living matter, then there is no basis for the neo-Darwinian concept of life (as a purely randomly occurring chemical accident).
Now I have presented a logical, scientifically supportable, argument here…
Therefore, it IS REASONABLE to assume (if one has not had the pleasure of the experienced observeable and testable premise) there may be a God(s) because empirical evidence is in fact the #1 BEST quality of evidence one can obtain…all else is only commentary. And it is equally NOT REASONABLE to assume something to be true that utterly lacks empirical evidence and all tests fail to demonstrate (in fact outright negate)…
Re-read this and think on it a bit. Use your reasoning capability because true critical thinking skills must take into account ALL data, not rejecting the inconvenient or contrary, and shape the hypothesis or “theory” (even by scientific definition) according to the data we actually know or can demonstrate.
Ever thinking up new criticisms in response to something we do not want to believe is not being honest with the evidence (thus closed minded as one who does not agree could rightly accuse YECs)
Sure there is. You just will not accept empirical evidence as valid…
Now consider what is empirical evidence…Empirical = based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic; originating in or based on observation or experience; relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory ; capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment.
Now no one can “prove” there is a God, gods, or anything outside of the natural order by merely natural means, again THAT”S ABSURD to even imagine such a thing….
So no one can “prove” by your limited definition of proof that there is a God but that however does not mean there is not evidence for such a being…
All we absolutely know for sure (scientifically speaking) is NO ONE can “prove” by any means (empirical or purely material) that there IS NO GOD…I am sure you agree with that (I hope)
Now listen carefully…because millions throughout the ages have personally experienced God (as well as other phenomena outside of what YOU would call the natural order), observed the effects of such a being, tested what He has claimed and found it to be true…(regardless of whether or not you have)! This historically verifiable fact alone (not even considering other things like the purely prescient nature of Biblical prophecy, and other matters) IS empirical evidence that there is a God…
Any open minded objective person with a shred of intellectual integrity cannot dismiss the mountain of empirical evidence and then accept and live by premises for which there is none and truly be a rational person…
I know you can rationalize, that’s not what I am saying, I am saying you accept a number of premises without a single shred of evidence they are true yet reject many for which there is evidence they are true…
Let me pose a scenario to you (all this by the way is to help you learn to actually use critical thinking not ever thinking up new criticisms, there is a stark difference)
All of science (and I KNOW this is a fact) and ALL scientists only experience, have ONLY observed, can ONLY demonstrate, and ALL tests done or devised ONLY show that life comes from previous life…
Evolutionary Biologists, Vance and Miller, in their book, Biology for You (Philadelphia, Lippincott, l963), admit that, “All the forms of plants and animals that we have studied in biology, produce their young from their own bodies, and in no other way“. Did you hear that? They said, “in no other way“!
The contemporary Encyclopedia Americana (Grolier, Scholastic, 2000) says, “Biologists are now not only in virtual unanimous agreement that all life derives from preceding life, but that the parent organism and it’s offspring are of the same kind“.
From this smattering of scientific testimony, a definite conclusion comes to light! Contrary to the popularized, politicized, neo-Darwinian dogma… within a given phyla, members only reproduce other members of the same phyla from relations with members of their own phyla! There simply are no biological examples of Darwin’s poly-phyletic morphism anywhere in the world after almost 200 years of alleged scientific consideration and 100 years of collecting fossilized examples. Never experienced, never observed, never demonstrated, and ALL tests refuting it…yet sold and imposed on innocently inquiring minds through drill and repetition that it is an established fact…
When Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s propaganda Minister, once said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State (or in this case the educational neo-Darwinian pedagogues) can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the (these power mongers) to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy …”
This is the case here…for if life ONLY comes from previous life then there was a life (a force; a quality of reality) that precedes what we know of as bios/life here on earth. In is an undeniable conclusion which MUST BE repressed and disallowed from the public awareness or else the whole neo-Darwinian house of cards falls…if life did not eventually evolve from non-living matter, then there is no basis for the neo-Darwinian concept of life (as a purely randomly occurring chemical accident).
Now I have presented a logical, scientifically supportable, argument here…
Therefore, it IS REASONABLE to assume (if one has not had the pleasure of the experienced observeable and testable premise) there may be a God(s) because empirical evidence is in fact the #1 BEST quality of evidence one can obtain…all else is only commentary. And it is equally NOT REASONABLE to assume something to be true that utterly lacks empirical evidence and all tests fail to demonstrate (in fact outright negate)…
Re-read this and think on it a bit. Use your reasoning capability because true critical thinking skills must take into account ALL data, not rejecting the inconvenient or contrary, and shape the hypothesis or “theory” (even by scientific definition) according to the data we actually know or can demonstrate.
Ever thinking up new criticisms in response to something we do not want to believe is not being honest with the evidence (thus closed minded as one who does not agree could rightly accuse YECs)
It is clear worm that you do not understand the difference between "murder" and killing...so let me help (again to teach you to think clearly regarding what the Bible is talking about)...I will give you the teaching in 2 parts
Part 1
First off, regarding who has a right to kill? Only God, whom He allows or appoints, and who He so commands has a right to end someone’s life. However, for the most part, He reserves that right only to Himself. Why? What gives Him this right? Because He is the creator and giver of “bios” life (temporal life) and without Him there is no life, therefore, only He has the ultimate right or authority to take that life and do with it as He pleases just as you have right over a project or object you have made. But as we have seen in the above mentioned passage from Ezekiel, it actually grieves Him when this must take place.
The Hebrew word “rasah” or “rashah”, as it is used here in the 6th Commandment refers most specifically to premeditated murder without just cause. However, it can also be used in the sense of manslaughter, as when one kills by mistake, or without intent, like in the case of Numbers 25:11; Deuteronomy 4:42, 19:4, Joshua 20:3-5, and elsewhere! Thus in Hebrew the specific meaning of this word must always be determined by its’ context. We must always see it in relation to the surrounding statements. In the commandments it is absolute and the law is conditional…
Sin is a transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4) and there are actually 613 commandments…the soul that sins it must die is called the curse of the law but actually goes all the way back to the garden and what is really being said is that sin brings forth sickness and death (spiritual death).
Next, we have the word “hemit”, which carries no sense of guilt or iniquity and is used in the case of righteous capital punishment, or when the killing is the result of an attack from a wild beast, and so on! The root of this word is related to the word “emet” or truth. We see this usage in Leviticus 20:4; Numbers 35:19-21; Deuteronomy 13:10 (your passage) and Deuteronomy 17:7!
Finally, when God orders the execution or destruction of an individual or group (like when He commands Joshua at the five cities of Canaan), the word “haraq” is used (See Genesis 20:4; Exodus 4:23, etc.). This form of killing is used specifically in the prevention of foreseen evils beyond our comprehension. By eliminating these people, God is actually sparing millions of people the pain, disease, suffering, and death that they would have caused. It would be used for example in eliminating an Adolph Hitler. There is absolutely nothing evil in this, in fact it is very good. Therefore, this form of killing is always just, whether or not we finite humans can see the full implications of His doing it.
The question has also been asked, “Why couldn’t God just make the devils repent and then save them rather than condemn them all to eternal death in Gehenna? I mean, didn’t Jesus die for all sins? Can’t He save them as well?”
And the answer is, “Yes, He could, but He won’t, because these are free-will beings who not only have made this choice, but God has foreseen that, even if given many opportunities, they still will not repent.”
Part 1
First off, regarding who has a right to kill? Only God, whom He allows or appoints, and who He so commands has a right to end someone’s life. However, for the most part, He reserves that right only to Himself. Why? What gives Him this right? Because He is the creator and giver of “bios” life (temporal life) and without Him there is no life, therefore, only He has the ultimate right or authority to take that life and do with it as He pleases just as you have right over a project or object you have made. But as we have seen in the above mentioned passage from Ezekiel, it actually grieves Him when this must take place.
The Hebrew word “rasah” or “rashah”, as it is used here in the 6th Commandment refers most specifically to premeditated murder without just cause. However, it can also be used in the sense of manslaughter, as when one kills by mistake, or without intent, like in the case of Numbers 25:11; Deuteronomy 4:42, 19:4, Joshua 20:3-5, and elsewhere! Thus in Hebrew the specific meaning of this word must always be determined by its’ context. We must always see it in relation to the surrounding statements. In the commandments it is absolute and the law is conditional…
Sin is a transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4) and there are actually 613 commandments…the soul that sins it must die is called the curse of the law but actually goes all the way back to the garden and what is really being said is that sin brings forth sickness and death (spiritual death).
Next, we have the word “hemit”, which carries no sense of guilt or iniquity and is used in the case of righteous capital punishment, or when the killing is the result of an attack from a wild beast, and so on! The root of this word is related to the word “emet” or truth. We see this usage in Leviticus 20:4; Numbers 35:19-21; Deuteronomy 13:10 (your passage) and Deuteronomy 17:7!
Finally, when God orders the execution or destruction of an individual or group (like when He commands Joshua at the five cities of Canaan), the word “haraq” is used (See Genesis 20:4; Exodus 4:23, etc.). This form of killing is used specifically in the prevention of foreseen evils beyond our comprehension. By eliminating these people, God is actually sparing millions of people the pain, disease, suffering, and death that they would have caused. It would be used for example in eliminating an Adolph Hitler. There is absolutely nothing evil in this, in fact it is very good. Therefore, this form of killing is always just, whether or not we finite humans can see the full implications of His doing it.
The question has also been asked, “Why couldn’t God just make the devils repent and then save them rather than condemn them all to eternal death in Gehenna? I mean, didn’t Jesus die for all sins? Can’t He save them as well?”
And the answer is, “Yes, He could, but He won’t, because these are free-will beings who not only have made this choice, but God has foreseen that, even if given many opportunities, they still will not repent.”
Part 2...explanation by analogy...
Imagine in the human body, each cell as an individual life form, which actually it is. They each likewise function as part of a specific local community (the heart, the lungs, the blood stream, etc.,). Different cells, and groups of cells, display differences in structure, appearance, life-span, function, etc., just like different humans and groups of humans! Each cell in relation to the other cells, and as a member of their particular cellular community, knowingly or unknowingly works as an intricate part of a whole which is greater than the sum of its parts. The human host, of which it is but a tiny almost insignificant part, is as the Lord is to us, in relation to the members of His body. The individual cell’s instinctual purpose, like our own, is to work to maintain and protect its self life, as well as the goals of its community life.
One of the ways they assure the survival of their type is through self-replication or offspring. Their higher purpose is actually to achieve our will and our good purpose though they are most probably totally unaware, or only vaguely, that we, as their human host, even exists. They understand little if anything about us, and our ways are higher than their ways, our thoughts are higher than their thoughts, if indeed it can be said that they even have any. They go about more or less doing the right thing in relation to one another unaware of the part they are playing in working within our overall purpose and will. Beyond their circumstantial perceptions they are working and interacting to optimize our quality of life and helping to fulfill our long term plans.
Now then, each individual cell is created in our image. They contain the image of their host within each of them (called DNA). They probably can sense an order and function interactively to enhance their mutually dependable existence. The span of their existence may be miniscule in relation to their human host, but to them it is a lifetime.
Sad as this truth is, every once in a while, a cell or some group of cells, decides they are going to do their own thing. They’re going to be their own lord if you will. They seemingly become self-willed and rebellious toward the established order. They begin to gain new converts so to speak, in great numbers, and nothing is going to stop them from their plan to take over. We call this actual biological phenomena is what we call “Cancer”! These terrorist or barbarous cells literally go into attack mode and start sapping the life out of the surrounding cells, killing as many as necessary in pursuit of their self-willed agenda. At first the effect of their violence upon their community of cells is slight and almost unnoticeable, causing some alarm, discomfort, and intermittent disturbance here and there. Regulatory norms are enforced by the greater community, and often these perverted or violent (sometimes murderous) outbreaks are remedied without bringing much attention or alarm to the neighboring cellular communities. However, on occasion these cells reject these corrective measures and rebel even further extending there influence outward, and begin to influence their surroundings in such a way that the immune system is alerted, and the local community has to call in specialists to eliminate these criminal cells in an attempt to protect the near by individuals, and the society at large. These are usually in the form of “anti-bodies” and white blood cells, that specialize in response to the types of violent rebellion these particular cellular individuals impose. Why try to eliminate them? Because of the inevitable threat they cause to individuals and to the greater society. The literally bring a sort of chaos into the order of things destroying the work being done there. If left on their own without being stopped they will continue to maliciously destroy and entirely take over. The forces alerted to remedy the problem will stop at nothing to prevent more or foreseen mayhem and if necessary will even kill them. They even try surrounding them and trapping them as a first attempt by encapsulating them in a membrane or prison if you will but when this fails there is no other logical choice.
If they get too powerful, or for some non-sensible reason are released, or break out of their captivity, or get away with their self-lordship too long, the cell’s lord, the human host, begins to take notice and likewise goes on alert. It likewise then takes any steps necessary to overcome or even kill the Cancer before it gets too powerful. It will irradiate, cut out, laser roast, or even chop off a limb in order to preserve the greater good and sometimes the life of the whole. Often times a number of good healthy citizen cells are called on to make the sacrifice of self for the greater good. Sometimes just the act of chasing down these devils and getting at them causes the sacrifice of good, innocent, healthy, cellular individuals. As tragic as this may seem it is the necessary price that must be paid to protect and save the most lives in the community.
So it is with God! Occasionally, God sees the development of a human cancer growing stronger and stronger. The appropriate members of the human community at large are being intimidated, persuaded, abused, and even eliminated. Sometimes He sees that resistance attempts have been, or will continue to be futile, and so He must step in and take action to save the many, to work the greater overall good, even though we may not fully comprehend the extent of this benefit at the time.
Think on these things...Lord I have planted the seed so I ask that despite the coming attempts to reject it let it be planted so that later it may grow and produce fruit...I ask this by the authority (on the name of) the Lord Jesus Christ for I know it is your will that all should come to repentance (but alas many like being the lord too much)...
In His love
brother Paul
Imagine in the human body, each cell as an individual life form, which actually it is. They each likewise function as part of a specific local community (the heart, the lungs, the blood stream, etc.,). Different cells, and groups of cells, display differences in structure, appearance, life-span, function, etc., just like different humans and groups of humans! Each cell in relation to the other cells, and as a member of their particular cellular community, knowingly or unknowingly works as an intricate part of a whole which is greater than the sum of its parts. The human host, of which it is but a tiny almost insignificant part, is as the Lord is to us, in relation to the members of His body. The individual cell’s instinctual purpose, like our own, is to work to maintain and protect its self life, as well as the goals of its community life.
One of the ways they assure the survival of their type is through self-replication or offspring. Their higher purpose is actually to achieve our will and our good purpose though they are most probably totally unaware, or only vaguely, that we, as their human host, even exists. They understand little if anything about us, and our ways are higher than their ways, our thoughts are higher than their thoughts, if indeed it can be said that they even have any. They go about more or less doing the right thing in relation to one another unaware of the part they are playing in working within our overall purpose and will. Beyond their circumstantial perceptions they are working and interacting to optimize our quality of life and helping to fulfill our long term plans.
Now then, each individual cell is created in our image. They contain the image of their host within each of them (called DNA). They probably can sense an order and function interactively to enhance their mutually dependable existence. The span of their existence may be miniscule in relation to their human host, but to them it is a lifetime.
Sad as this truth is, every once in a while, a cell or some group of cells, decides they are going to do their own thing. They’re going to be their own lord if you will. They seemingly become self-willed and rebellious toward the established order. They begin to gain new converts so to speak, in great numbers, and nothing is going to stop them from their plan to take over. We call this actual biological phenomena is what we call “Cancer”! These terrorist or barbarous cells literally go into attack mode and start sapping the life out of the surrounding cells, killing as many as necessary in pursuit of their self-willed agenda. At first the effect of their violence upon their community of cells is slight and almost unnoticeable, causing some alarm, discomfort, and intermittent disturbance here and there. Regulatory norms are enforced by the greater community, and often these perverted or violent (sometimes murderous) outbreaks are remedied without bringing much attention or alarm to the neighboring cellular communities. However, on occasion these cells reject these corrective measures and rebel even further extending there influence outward, and begin to influence their surroundings in such a way that the immune system is alerted, and the local community has to call in specialists to eliminate these criminal cells in an attempt to protect the near by individuals, and the society at large. These are usually in the form of “anti-bodies” and white blood cells, that specialize in response to the types of violent rebellion these particular cellular individuals impose. Why try to eliminate them? Because of the inevitable threat they cause to individuals and to the greater society. The literally bring a sort of chaos into the order of things destroying the work being done there. If left on their own without being stopped they will continue to maliciously destroy and entirely take over. The forces alerted to remedy the problem will stop at nothing to prevent more or foreseen mayhem and if necessary will even kill them. They even try surrounding them and trapping them as a first attempt by encapsulating them in a membrane or prison if you will but when this fails there is no other logical choice.
If they get too powerful, or for some non-sensible reason are released, or break out of their captivity, or get away with their self-lordship too long, the cell’s lord, the human host, begins to take notice and likewise goes on alert. It likewise then takes any steps necessary to overcome or even kill the Cancer before it gets too powerful. It will irradiate, cut out, laser roast, or even chop off a limb in order to preserve the greater good and sometimes the life of the whole. Often times a number of good healthy citizen cells are called on to make the sacrifice of self for the greater good. Sometimes just the act of chasing down these devils and getting at them causes the sacrifice of good, innocent, healthy, cellular individuals. As tragic as this may seem it is the necessary price that must be paid to protect and save the most lives in the community.
So it is with God! Occasionally, God sees the development of a human cancer growing stronger and stronger. The appropriate members of the human community at large are being intimidated, persuaded, abused, and even eliminated. Sometimes He sees that resistance attempts have been, or will continue to be futile, and so He must step in and take action to save the many, to work the greater overall good, even though we may not fully comprehend the extent of this benefit at the time.
Think on these things...Lord I have planted the seed so I ask that despite the coming attempts to reject it let it be planted so that later it may grow and produce fruit...I ask this by the authority (on the name of) the Lord Jesus Christ for I know it is your will that all should come to repentance (but alas many like being the lord too much)...
In His love
brother Paul
Last edited:
Great post brother paul!! Agree 100%!
And Gods original creation of paradise where no creature preyed on another is less silly?
And you can make sense of all that Waffle?
Glomung
Account Closed
Where does it say that God had ever created any paradise without predators? That is an unbased assumption on your part.
Genesis (even if you take it seriously) says very little about the nature of Eden or the animals therein.
I have been told on this forum that no creature preyed on another before the fall of man. I made no assumptions.
Absolutely. It makes sense