Tongues And Prophecy - Benefit For Whom?

[JustPassingThru]

Heh, heh, it's always the same thing, every time we discuss this topic, side A claims they have the Holy Spirit, side B says the same Holy Spirit says to test all spirits, side A claims a unknown to man language, side B uses the Word to show tongues is a known language, finally when side B uses the Word to test side A's claim (like the same Holy Spirit of both side A & B tells us, then side A says side B is blaspheming the Holy Spirit! LOL LOL LOL

Good night.

Blessings,

Gene

 

[CCW95A]

I think you are assuming things not written. The Apostles spoke in their own native language, and the hearer's heard in their own native language. With them all speaking at once, not in unison, it sounded strange, perhaps, to those who didn't have ears to hear. Maybe even joyous, it sounded.

1Co 14:2= For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The 120 in the upper room were not speaking in a learned language of their own because "no man understands him", even themselves!!
The language is not determined by the speaker, but by the Spirit of God.

 

[Major]

So... You ask why I responded the way I did... so I will quote you again....



Those are your words... Not mine. You are the one who declared Miracles and Tongues done. You declared them to be simply man made emotional reactions... That they are simply some sort of ecstatic reaction of people trying to fabricate some sort of form of religiosity but without the actual Spirit of God.....

Or... Perhaps worse depending on Who you define as the one "who Copies God but is not God"

So.. If that's not what you really meant... Fine.. but it seems pretty clear here what you were saying....
Which means at best - my Wife was simply deceived.... That she really wasn't healed at all... And if she Was - it wasn't by God....

and you can imagine how I might take offense at such a position - where someone would happily condemn my wife without ever even meeting her....

Thanks

Already responded to you in comment #133 on this matter. GOD DOES HEAL! I am glad your wife was healed!

But if you do not believe that Satan can copy what God does then you need to do some more Bible study my brother.

1 Peter 5:8 says..........
"8: Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world"

2 Cor. 11:13-15
"The servants or ministers of the devil appear righteous and true, adding to the devil's ability to deceive the naïve."

 

[Major]

Well there is no changing minds. But I see no relation to scripture and tongues as used today in some churches. Edifying is to clarify - to understand - and I see none of that here. I'm against pressuring believers to this as it can and will be faked and imitated - not to clarify but confuse. The emperor has no clothes on.

My dear, when one is committed to a certain denominational theology, it is very difficult for them to then see the truth of Scriptures.
That is called "RELIGION".

 

[KingJ]

There is no doubt speaking in a UNKNOWN tongue is a mystery to the one speaking it. It is even more amazing that someone is understanding what you are saying when you don't, unless he prays that he may interpret.

I don't believe we can ever 'not understand' if we have the gift. We may not be able to interpret it properly for others, but understand it we can.

 

[KingJ]

Heh, heh, it's always the same thing, every time we discuss this topic, side A claims they have the Holy Spirit, side B says the same Holy Spirit says to test all spirits, side A claims a unknown to man language, side B uses the Word to show tongues is a known language, finally when side B uses the Word to test side A's claim (like the same Holy Spirit of both side A & B tells us, then side A says side B is blaspheming the Holy Spirit! LOL LOL LOL

Good night.

Blessings,

Gene

All I see is half truths being quoted. Tongues = foreign 'human' language + Tongues = unknown to man language .

How many times must 1 Cor 14:2 be posted and underlined?

 

[TalkJesus]

Now you are talking about the ministry of tongues in the Church. not everybody does that as it is only given as the Spirit wills. Why do you think there is an interpretation of tongues also given by the Spirit, because it is not always in a language anyone knows! If there is no interpreter in the Church than they should keep silent. Praying in tongues is different as it is spoken directly to God, not to any person.

You quoted verse 2 out of context of what Paul was explaining to any believers that seek any spiritual gift, to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gift including tongues, and Paul began to show why by comparing the gift of tongues with the gift of prophesy. That same tongue in verse 2 is the same tongue Paul was talking about for the rest of that chapter that needs to come with interpretation as a ministry in the Church. Verse 2 is Paul way of saying in context that tongues was not a stand alone gift, and he has been repeating that point thru out that chapter.

 

[KingJ]

My dear, when one is committed to a certain denominational theology, it is very difficult for them to then see the truth of Scriptures.
That is called "RELIGION".

Hey Major.

Whilst I agree with Silk in not pressuring anyone. Don't you think its throwing the baby out with the bath water?

1 Cor 14 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

This is not referring to another language and this is not suggesting we not pursue tongues or keep quiet if there is no interpreter.

Personally I believe only those really close to God / or really young, can speak in tongues. I don't speak often, but I respect those that do at my church. If you were there you would see it is not a sham .

 

[CCW95A]

I don't believe we can ever 'not understand' if we have the gift. We may not be able to interpret it properly for others, but understand it we can.

Obviously, Wisdom, and understanding from God concerning His Word does not always come through the speaking in tongues, as the Holy can and does give "a word of Wisdom" or a "word of knowledge" as He wills. It is just another avenue he so chooses to give by His Spirit.

 

[TalkJesus]

If the Bible describes something that is supposed to be experienced by the body of Christ is it not good to discuss its benefits to those who do not believe it? Even though it does not jeopardize ones salvation at all, would it not be right to share with others this blessing. Is it right to just shut up about it and just let people continue in their own ways, or should we be obedient to the Holy Spirit?

You had been testifying that tongues is evidence of the initial infilling for all believers. That is the same thing as saying all believers need tongues to know that they are saved.

That is preaching another gospel. Instead of being saved by faith in Jesus Christ; you are saying we are saved by a sign of tongues.

 

[TalkJesus]

On the day of pentecost when 120 people filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, Peter stands up and says this......

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Being filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues is a promise to everybody whom God calls, even to all of our children!!!!

Here it is again: you are preaching that all saved believers can know they are saved by speaking in tongues as it is evidence of the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost.

I point out to you that the tongue they were speaking that day of Pentecost was of other men's lips to speak unto those Jews that were native of foreign countries and not of Israel.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

No where in Acts did any one preaching the gospel prep the hearers up to receive the Holy Ghost after a sign of tongues so that they know they had received the Holy Ghost and thus saved.

 

[CCW95A]

You quoted verse 2 out of context of what Paul was explaining to any believers that seek any spiritual gift, to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gift including tongues, and Paul began to show why by comparing the gift of tongues with the gift of prophesy. That same tongue in verse 2 is the same tongue Paul was talking about for the rest of that chapter that needs to come with interpretation as a ministry in the Church. Verse 2 is Paul way of saying in context that tongues was not a stand alone gift, and he has been repeating that point thru out that chapter.

You are not correct, he said prophecy is greater than tongues UNLESS their is an interpretation. then they are the same.

1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

 

[CCW95A]

You had been testifying that tongues is evidence of the initial infilling for all believers. That is the same thing as saying all believers need tongues to know that they are saved.

That is preaching another gospel. Instead of being saved by faith in Jesus Christ; you are saying we are saved by a sign of tongues.

Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Does this sound like being saved to you?

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Can you tell the difference between a "spring" to a "river"? You can step over a stream, but a river you would have to try swim across, if you could battle its current.

Being born of the Spirit is not the same as being filled with the Spirit.

 

[TalkJesus]

NO ONE is saying that miracles have stopped. Or that God stopped healing. When man wants to claim he does what God is responsible for, something is wrong with your theology. If I lay my hands on you and you are healed - that's God - He doesn't need my hands. Self proclaimed healers have zero medically documented, verified healings. Don't you find that odd? And yet daily, God heals and it is medically certified that the doctors don't know how it was done. I am joyous for your wife - but it was God who healed her - not man.

A major point for those laying hands to reconsider since it is the fervent prayer of a righteous man that availeth much when prayers are being submitted to God for Him to answer.

At one event in the NT, Jesus had explained why His disciples could not cast out the demons for that kind cannot come out except thru prayer and fasting; prayer is making a submission to God and fasting is denying having any part in it. Jesus was lifting the sights of every one alot higher as to Whom was really casting out that devil.

So I agree with you about the laying on of hands has no part in His ministry; otherwise, believers would be thinking like Simon the scorceror did in seeking to have power to impart the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands.

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

A believer could abuse that reference by saying it is the anointing of oil that saves the sick or that it was the laying on of hands, but James pointed out that it was the prayer; submitting that request to God and thus it is God that saves the sick.

Matthew 7:21-23 can very well be applied to saved believers losing sight of Him when taking credit for His ministry even though there is more involved with that iniquity than just vanity.

 

[TalkJesus]

You are not correct, he said prophecy is greater than tongues UNLESS their is an interpretation. then they are the same.

1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

Which was why Paul exhorted the gift of prophesy over the gift of tongues because it was not a stand alone gift which needs to come with interpretation. That has been his message thru out that chapter that if any believer sought one spiritual gift among all spiritual gift, they were to seek the gift of prophesy because the gift of tongues has to have interpretation for tongues was never a stand alone gift.

 

[KingJ]

NO ONE is saying that miracles have stopped. Or that God stopped healing. When man wants to claim he does what God is responsible for, something is wrong with your theology. If I lay my hands on you and you are healed - that's God - He doesn't need my hands. Self proclaimed healers have zero medically documented, verified healings. Don't you find that odd? And yet daily, God heals and it is medically certified that the doctors don't know how it was done. I am joyous for your wife - but it was God who healed her - not man..

Amen Silk!

 

[CCW95A]

Here it is again: you are preaching that all saved believers can know they are saved by speaking in tongues as it is evidence of the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost.

I point out to you that the tongue they were speaking that day of Pentecost was of other men's lips to speak unto those Jews that were native of foreign countries and not of Israel.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

No where in Acts did any one preaching the gospel prep the hearers up to receive the Holy Ghost after a sign of tongues so that they know they had received the Holy Ghost and thus saved.

Speaking in tongues does not precede salvation. Salvation first then speaking in tongues.

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

 

[CCW95A]

Which was why Paul exhorted the gift of prophesy over the gift of tongues because it was not a stand alone gift which needs to come with interpretation. That has been his message thru out that chapter that if any believer sought one spiritual gift among all spiritual gift, they were to seek the gift of prophesy because the gift of tongues has to have interpretation for tongues was never a stand alone gift.

Wrong again, Paul, " wanted everyone to speak in tongues"

1Co 14:5 = I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Speaking in tongues carries the same weight as prophesying, they are the same when there is a interpreter.

 

[TalkJesus]

TJ, I'm with you on almost everything you say, especially about Isa 8:19, but the elders in Antioch laid hands on Barnabas and Saul for ministry Acts 13:2, 3, notice they were so doing in obeying the command of the Holy Spirit for the particular ministry He had chosen for them in the Body of Christ and later Paul would exhort young Timothy to not neglect the gift the Holy Spirit had given him through prophecy and by the laying on of hands of the elders 1 Tim 4:14, Paul also instructed Timothy to not lay hands on a novice 1 Tim 5:22.

So it seems the Holy Spirit does tell us there is something more than the indwelling we receive when born again, personally, I look at it this way, ...when I was born again, I received the Holy Spirit, ...when it was clear to the elders in my church the call of the Holy Spirit on my life, they laid hands on me and the Holy Spirit received me, ...what did I receive from this filling, baptism or whatever anyone wants to call it, faith, I was filled with faith, ...the Lord called me here and I was to come on a one way ticket (impossible for a non-French citizen), without any documents that would allow me to stay longer than three months as a tourist and without any financial aid from my church or friends, when the Lord gave me these conditions I was filled with wonder as to how it could happen and believe me I tried my best to help Him, all to no avail, there were some in my church that doubted His call on my life and sometimes I allowed their doubt to settle on me, this went on for almost a year from when He called me to the day before I left, ...the day the elders laid hands on me for this missionary trip, all doubt and wonder instantly vanished and I was sure, I knew deep in my soul the Father would accomplish what He had told me to do, all that was required of me was to step out in faith and trust Him with the rest, I was stopped at the SFO check-in counter, but He opened the door, I was detained at the FAA'A Airport French Immigration, but He opened the door, I hit the shores without a penny in my pocket, but He fed me and housed me (unlike His son I have always had a place to lay my head, even if it was only a bench in the employees lunch room), and I lived here for 3 1/2 years without any official papers, questioned twice by French Immigration during that time and then He told me to go to a particular church on the sister island of where I was living and that day He introduced me to His Eve for me, ...incidentally, she had been praying for 12 years for an American husband that played an instrument and loved working with children, ...that's me and with this marriage I became a Naturalized French citizen, they can't deport me now.

You see bro, I did receive something from the Holy Spirit that day hands were laid on me, ...because I have lived a daily life of faith in Father providing for me, I'm considered a freak, or a monster by most of the church, ...because of my faith, like James says,

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Jas 2:18

Like I said, the day I was born again I got the Holy Spirit, the day hands were laid on me the Holy Spirit got me!

Blessings,

Gene

I do not doubt God has been and is working in your life and just because some believers in here erroneously believe that tongues can be used as a prayyer language, it does not mean Christ is not in them nor working at all in their lives. The church at Thyatira in Revelations can have "faith" and "works" and "charity" and so forth, but still the Lord can have a few "serious" offenses that the church needs to address in preparing with repentance by His grace & by His help to meet the Bridegroom or risk being cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation.

I do doubt you giving credit to the laying on of hands when it was your prayers to God and thus God answering your prayers that you are where you are today.

I do doubt your preaching the experience of another infilling as something God wants you to do, because you were warned not to believe every spirit when He is in you by faith. 1 John 4:1 1 John 4:4 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 2 Corinthians 13:5

The fact that you had testified to an infilling by the laying on of hands for the ministry is why I doubt that portion of your testimony of God working in your life because that had nothing to do with it, but by testifying to it, you gave the credit for any difference in your life by that infilling moment instead of by your faith in Jesus Christ. When you testify like that, that makes other believers seek that same experience for them to know that God is working in their lives. See?

A neighbor across the street from where I live testified that she was reading her Bible one day when she felt the Holy Spirit come over her and began to speak in tongues. She said that was the moment she was saved because she got it all at once. I ahd asked her what she was reading in the Bible that led her to believe in Jesus Christ. She did not know what I had meant, but went on to explain that she had asked her pastor why that had happened because she was a believer long before that moment. She testified that the pastor pointed to the Book of Acts which I assumed was Acts 2nd chapter when the disciples were waiting around doing every day thing when they had received the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost to be officially saved.

See what I mean? By her changed testimony as to when she was saved, other believers may be misled into thinking they need tongues to know that they are saved and so some do seek an infilling that does come with evidence of tongues but it was never of other men's lips to speak unto the people.

They can have that expereince and add weight to the lie that one must speak in tongues to know that they had the initial infilling of the Holy Spirit to know that they are saved.

And so I doubt that portion of your testimony because that infilling expereince that you had, had nothing to do with God working in your life than it did for those that had the similar expereince but with the sign of tongues to testify to it in chnaging their testimony as to when they were saved so that others may be misled into bcoming an adulterous generation in departing from faith in Jesus Chrsit in seeking to receive the "Holy Spirit" "again" and after a sign, even the sensational sign of feeling this infilling in the flesh.

So like in the church at Thyatira, God can be working in that church, but when they commit spiritual fornication by chasing after seducing spirits to receive them after a sign, then they are no longer serving the faith in Jesus Christ, but a departure from that faith. They too can be testified of as knowing the depth of Satan for which they speak; which I see it as tongues that comes with no interpretation.

It is the prayer that God answers; not the laying on of hands; not the oil that they are anointed by; and not this second infilling that is the work of seducing spirits in misleading other saved believers into chasing after to receive after a sign. That is why we are not to believe every spirit but test them; see what they are misleading us to believe; does it take our eyes off of the Son in changing our testimony as to when we were filled so as to mislead others in chasing after them for a sign? Then it is not of Him.

This is not saying God was not working in their lives or in your life still, but we were warned not to believe every spirit as they would love to steal the spotlight away from the Son so that they be given credit for the good in God's working in their lives. or for Jesus Christ having saved them earlier by faith alone in Him.

 

[TalkJesus]

I disagree, but then only those that have it do it... so no sweat off my nose

No harm in asking Jesus before that throne of grace for discernment on this matter, right brother?

If they got that tongue by another infilling of the Holy Ghost when He was already within them by faith in Jesus Christ when we had been warned not to believe every spirit, 1 John 4:1 and we can test them by knowing He is in us ( 1 John 4:2 is the same thing as saying 2 Corinthians 13:5 ) then that spirit that is not in us but coming over us; that is the spirit of the antichrist; 1 John 4:3-4 and they will cause errant believers to speak as the world speaks in tongues; in babbling nonsense; 1 John 4:5-6

If they got that tongue by seeking another filling of the Holy Ghost when 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 reproves that, then you should doubt the tongue that comes with no interpretation.

If they got tongues asking the Holy Spirit for them and thus going around the Son in dishonouring Him John 10:1 as the only way we can come to God the Father by in prayer ( John 14:6 ) because only the Son can answer prayers ( John 14:13-14 ) then it is no wonder that they are following the voice of stranger's ( tongues without interpretation ) as a result. ( John 10:5 )

These are the three witnesses in scripture that can enable a believer to discern by His grace & by His help how any tongue gained by iniquity of believing every spirit being of God, by seeking another infilling, and going around the Son to get them is not of Him.