Tongues And Prophecy - Benefit For Whom?

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CCW95A said:
Scriptural proof of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Out of the mouth of two or witness let every Word be established. Matt 18:16

(1) Witness

Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
Act 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Act 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)


Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

120 men and women were all baptist in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.

(2)Witness

The entire house hold of Cornelius, A gentile.


Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

(3) witness

The Ephesian Disciples
This account happened years after the day of Pentecost while Paul was ministering to the diciples in Ephesus.

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

(4) Witness

Samaritan Believers. Though it does not say directly they spoke in tongues, yet Simon who witness the whole event wanted to give money so he could do the same. He had to have heard them speak in tongues as the Holy is invisible, and that would have been the only way he could known they were filled with the Holy Spirit.

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

(5) Witness

Ananias being sent to Paul by Jesus that he might be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

It does not say Paul spoke in tongues by we know he did because Paul said this of himself....

1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
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#1 thru #4 are not witnesses validating tongues to be used as a prayer language.

#5 & #6 are not testifying to tongues being made present at that time.

#5 is an event where they were all Samaritans and therefore no need to speak in another language. That was why it was not mentioned because it did not happen.

#6 is a private affair between two Jews that speak Hebrew so there is no need for tongues there.

Yes, Paul spoke in tongues, but he testified what tongues were for; to profit the body withal as it must come with interpretation unless otherwise understood by a foreignor because God's gift of tongues are of other men's lips to speak unto the people.

Nowhere did he say that if the tongue he spoke did not come with interpretation, then it must be a prayer language. If that was so, how could he tell anyone to be silent in the church when it does not come with interpretation but yet if the Holy Spirit is bothering to manifest tongues, then if He is praying, who is Paul to instruct any one to be silent? That would be like quenching the Spirit.

So no. Paul meant what he had said about what God's gift of tongues were for: to speak unto the people.
 
TalkJesus said:
Because there are familiar spirits in the world that brings supernatural tongues of babbling nonsense, meaning it comes with no interpretation, Isaiah 8:19 and this was present before God's gift of tongues which was of other men's lips to speak unto the people had come at Pentecost.... believers should not believe every spirit but test them and the tongues they bring.

Because we are to prove all things and abstain from all apearances of evil, therefore God is not going to copycat the devil's tongue which is why God's gift of tongues IS ONLY of other men's lips to speak unto the people.

Otherwise, using tongues as a prayer language because it comes with no interpretation is hardly abstaining from all appearances of evil.

Problems will arise when those coming out of the occult that had those kinds of tongues, it will be hard to discern if they had truly repented or not. And then if they try to witness to their former friends in the occult, they will not be convinced that he has changed at all.

That's me saying God will never use the gift of tongue as a prayer language if He wishes to call sinners out of the world and away from their familiar spirits to His Son in relting to God the Father by which is why all invitations points to the Son and none to the Holy Spirit.... even afterwards so as to avoid the spirit fo the antichrist that would come inbetween us & the Son like a thief.
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This is why you don't speak or pray in tongues because you don't see it in the scriptures. I do. All tongues magnifies God and speaks of His mysteries he has hid for his Church. All believers born again have the witness in them, not the spirit of this world, so there is no deception happening, as Christ who is our life can never be deceived. You have it wrong, God does not copy the Devil, the Devil copies what God does. He has no truth in him. You still do not understand that there is ministry of speaking in tongues in which all do not participate in, and then there is praying in tongues in which every is suppose to do.

1Co 12:7 = But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8= For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 = To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10= To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Divers kinds of tongues and interpretation is for ministry, and given by the Holy Spirit of God as he wills.
Speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of the infilling of the Spirit is for all Saints.
 
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TalkJesus said:
#1 thru #4 are not witnesses validating tongues to be used as a prayer language.

So no. Paul meant what he had said about what God's gift of tongues were for: to speak unto the people.
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1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
 
TezriLi said:
Thank you, Talk. :) ..
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You are welcome, TezriLi, but I do thank the Lord Jesus Christ for helping you to understand me in regards to this matter as He is enabling me to serve Him. He is helping me to trust Him and leave Him to do the ministry as only God can cause the increase.
 
I say this in love, tho I recognize it won't be popular, or change any minds. If you look for quotes to back what you already want to believe, you will find them. You will twist and push and stretch 'til you have some fit. Tongues do not prove or disprove that any one person is filled with the HS, nor is it the "only" way to show others that you are filled. And why do you need to show others? When I am experiencing the HS - I know it because I have tested it and it leads me to truth and Christ. I am unafraid of testing what comes to me - I don't assume because I know how dangerous that is. I don't see anyone who claims Tongues saying they tested. The scriptures, as a whole, seems quite clear to me, is human language. And I don't want to argue the point. It does nothing to me if someone else speaks in tongues and it is of God. I accept the possibility for whoever claims it and hope they are right. How to word this? Personally, I am not impressed, nor do I think the speaker is holier, closer to God, or their prayers are more powerful than the non speaker. To push these ideas to other believers is wrong. Tongues is not a salvation issue. If you want to use it as your own private prayer language - just do it and stop defending your practice. I advise testing but you have to do what's right for you.
 
CCW95A said:
This is why you don't speak or pray in tongues because you don't see it in the scriptures. I do.
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I see God's gift of tongues used for speaking unto the people; not for praying. Now that we have His words in the KJV, when every one speaks the same language in church, we can receive our edification from the written word.

All tongues magnifies God and speaks of His mysteries he has hid for his Church. All believers born again have the witness in them, not the spirit of this world, so there is no deception happening, as Christ who is our life can never be deceived. You have it wrong, God does not copy the Devil, the Devil copies what God does. He has no truth in him. You still do not understand that there is ministry of speaking in tongues in all do not participate in, and then there is praying in tongues in which every is suppose to do.
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The devil had this kind of tongues of babbling nonsense BEFORE God's gift of tongues had come at Pentecost. See Isaiah 8:19

For you to say God's gift of tongues is not always of other men's lips to speak unto the people, but can come with no interpretation to be used as a prayer language, then you are testifying that God is copycatting Satan's tongues. So your line of reasoning is a poor witness for God's gift of tongues to be used as a prayer language.

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Divers kinds of tongues and interpretation is for ministry, and given by the Holy Spirit of God as he wills.
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Paul was talking about the manifestations of the Spirit in the assembly in how they were to profit the body withal; that means tongues will follow interpretation of those tongues to benefit the body withal.

Speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of the infilling of the Spirit is for all Saints.
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If that was true, Paul could not have written this;

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

So not every one speaks in tongues and not every account in Acts has new believers speaking in tongues.

We are to defend the faith in Jesus Christ; and one cannot do that by testifying that tongues are necessary for the assurance of salvation. That is preaching another gospel and going against what Jesus said about how one is born again; you cannot know which way the wind is blowing, reproving the notion that one can tell when they are born again by their speaking in tongues.

Nicodemus asks further again how they are born again and Jesus said by believing in Him is how one is born again.

We have received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ therefore tongues serves as a sign towards the unbelievers; tongues were never meant to serve as a sign for believers to know that they have been saved.
 
Silk said:
I say this in love, tho I recognize it won't be popular, or change any minds. If you look for quotes to back what you already want to believe, you will find them. You will twist and push and stretch 'til you have some fit. Tongues do not prove or disprove that any one person is filled with the HS, nor is it the "only" way to show others that you are filled. And why do you need to show others? When I am experiencing the HS - I know it because I have tested it and it leads me to truth and Christ. I am unafraid of testing what comes to me - I don't assume because I know how dangerous that is. I don't see anyone who claims Tongues saying they tested. The scriptures, as a whole, seems quite clear to me, is human language. And I don't want to argue the point. It does nothing to me if someone else speaks in tongues and it is of God. I accept the possibility for whoever claims it and hope they are right. How to word this? Personally, I am not impressed, nor do I think the speaker is holier, closer to God, or their prayers are more powerful than the non speaker. To push these ideas to other believers is wrong. Tongues is not a salvation issue. If you want to use it as your own private prayer language - just do it and stop defending your practice. I advise testing but you have to do what's right for you.
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If the Bible describes something that is supposed to be experienced by the body of Christ is it not good to discuss its benefits to those who do not believe it? Even though it does not jeopardize ones salvation at all, would it not be right to share with others this blessing. Is it right to just shut up about it and just let people continue in their own ways, or should we be obedient to the Holy Spirit?
 
TalkJesus said:
I see God's gift of tongues used for speaking unto the people; not for praying. Now that we have His words in the KJV, when every one speaks the same language in church, we can receive our edification from the written word.



The devil had this kind of tongues of babbling nonsense BEFORE God's gift of tongues had come at Pentecost. See Isaiah 8:19

For you to say God's gift of tongues is not always of other men's lips to speak unto the people, but can come with no interpretation to be used as a prayer language, then you are testifying that God is copycatting Satan's tongues. So your line of reasoning is a poor witness for God's gift of tongues to be used as a prayer language.


Paul was talking about the manifestations of the Spirit in the assembly in how they were to profit the body withal; that means tongues will follow interpretation of those tongues to benefit the body withal.



If that was true, Paul could not have written this;

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

So not every one speaks in tongues and not every account in Acts has new believers speaking in tongues.

We are to defend the faith in Jesus Christ; and one cannot do that by testifying that tongues are necessary for the assurance of salvation. That is preaching another gospel and going against what Jesus said about how one is born again; you cannot know which way the wind is blowing, reproving the notion that one can tell when they are born again by their speaking in tongues.

Nicodemus asks further again how they are born again and Jesus said by believing in Him is how one is born again.

We have received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ therefore tongues serves as a sign towards the unbelievers; tongues were never meant to serve as a sign for believers to know that they have been saved.
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God copies nobody, and you still can not see the difference between ministry tongues and praying in tongues why is that? Why can't you see the Word of God in what it is saying? Did you read the scripture I posted?

1 Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Can you see this? what is it saying?
 
CW - you speak of not understanding God but I'm certain God understands Himself and does not need to pray to Himself. God knows what's in my heart - my prayers let Him know I know. If I speak it in words I don't understand, I merely am confirming I don't know. Scripture, as a whole, tells us how to understand God. If you are speaking mysteries of God - mysteries is exactly what they remain. God wants to be known to all - not a secret.
 
CCW95A said:
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
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Then explain verse 28.

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

In verse 2, Paul was explaining why the gift of prophesy was better gift to seek after than tongues are because by itself, tongues is only understood by God; not that he is speaking to God, but that God understands him which is why tongues needs interpretation.

Verse 28 is about how if any one speaks in tongues but it comes with no interpretation, that was not the manifestation of the Spirit, but a foreignor speaking out of turn which is why Paul was free to instruct for him to be silent because he understands what he is saying as God does because he speaks to himself and to God.

If you say the guy in verse 28 was speaking in tongues, then how can Paul tell him to be silent if the Holy Spirit wants to pray?

Then you also have to explain how he can speak to himself as if he is not crazy and speak unto God also and be silent in the church? Be kind of hard to be silent if he was still speaking in tongues. It would bother those around him in trying to hear.
 
TalkJesus said:
Then explain verse 28.

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

In verse 2, Paul was explaining why the gift of prophesy was better gift to seek after than tongues are because by itself, tongues is only understood by God; not that he is speaking to God, but that God understands him which is why tongues needs interpretation.

Verse 28 is about how if any one speaks in tongues but it comes with no interpretation, that was not the manifestation of the Spirit, but a foreignor speaking out of turn which is why Paul was free to instruct for him to be silent because he understands what he is saying as God does because he speaks to himself and to God.

If you say the guy in verse 28 was speaking in tongues, then how can Paul tell him to be silent if the Holy Spirit wants to pray?

Then you also have to explain how he can speak to himself as if he is not crazy and speak unto God also and be silent in the church? Be kind of hard to be silent if he was still speaking in tongues. It would bother those around him in trying to hear.
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Now you are talking about the ministry of tongues in the Church. not everybody does that as it is only given as the Spirit wills. Why do you think there is an interpretation of tongues also given by the Spirit, because it is not always in a language anyone knows! If there is no interpreter in the Church than they should keep silent. Praying in tongues is different as it is spoken directly to God, not to any person.
 
So... You ask why I responded the way I did... so I will quote you again....

Major said:
Agreed. Tongues were valid but that day is long past. When the Bible was finished being written, we then had the Word of God.

I have said and say again that tongues and miracles by performed by men are emotional reactions that are more lead by adrenaline than the Holy Spirit. Someone gets excited, wants to be close to God and they begin to babble or utter sounds. Others seeing this that place must then copy what they have seen so as NOT to be left out of the emotional and they think "Spiritual" event that will allow them to be closer to God.

What they are getting close to however is not God but the one who copies God..
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Those are your words... Not mine. You are the one who declared Miracles and Tongues done. You declared them to be simply man made emotional reactions... That they are simply some sort of ecstatic reaction of people trying to fabricate some sort of form of religiosity but without the actual Spirit of God.....

Or... Perhaps worse depending on Who you define as the one "who Copies God but is not God"

So.. If that's not what you really meant... Fine.. but it seems pretty clear here what you were saying....
Which means at best - my Wife was simply deceived.... That she really wasn't healed at all... And if she Was - it wasn't by God....

and you can imagine how I might take offense at such a position - where someone would happily condemn my wife without ever even meeting her....

Thanks
 
On the day of pentecost when 120 people filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, Peter stands up and says this......

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Being filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues is a promise to everybody whom God calls, even to all of our children!!!!
 
JohnC said:
So... You ask why I responded the way I did... so I will quote you again....



Those are your words... Not mine. You are the one who declared Miracles and Tongues done. You declared them to be simply man made emotional reactions... That they are simply some sort of ecstatic reaction of people trying to fabricate some sort of form of religiosity but without the actual Spirit of God.....

Or... Perhaps worse depending on Who you define as the one "who Copies God but is not God"

So.. If that's not what you really meant... Fine.. but it seems pretty clear here what you were saying....
Which means at best - my Wife was simply deceived.... That she really wasn't healed at all... And if she Was - it wasn't by God....



and you can imagine how I might take offense at such a position - where someone would happily condemn my wife without ever even meeting her....

Thanks
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NO ONE is saying that miracles have stopped. Or that God stopped healing. When man wants to claim he does what God is responsible for, something is wrong with your theology. If I lay my hands on you and you are healed - that's God - He doesn't need my hands. Self proclaimed healers have zero medically documented, verified healings. Don't you find that odd? And yet daily, God heals and it is medically certified that the doctors don't know how it was done. I am joyous for your wife - but it was God who healed her - not man.

 
CCW95A said:
On the day of pentecost when 120 people filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, Peter stands up and says this......

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Being filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues is a promise to everybody whom God calls, even to all of our children!!!!
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On pentecost, all spoke in human languages. You know this CW.
 
Silk said:
On pentecost, all spoke in human languages. You know this CW.
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It makes no difference as the language which was spoken by the 120 was not a learned language to them. It was a language which the Holy Spirit gave which was why all they that heard them were surprised.
 
Rofl - we agree CW - but the language was human not a non language as you are trying to "prove" as a tongue no one understands and "edifies" no one including the speaker. In the case of then Apostles, they knew what they were saying - it was the crowd who heard in their native HUMAN languages.
 
Well there is no changing minds. But I see no relation to scripture and tongues as used today in some churches. Edifying is to clarify - to understand - and I see none of that here. I'm against pressuring believers to this as it can and will be faked and imitated - not to clarify but confuse. The emperor has no clothes on.
 
Silk said:
CW - you speak of not understanding God but I'm certain God understands Himself and does not need to pray to Himself. God knows what's in my heart - my prayers let Him know I know. If I speak it in words I don't understand, I merely am confirming I don't know. Scripture, as a whole, tells us how to understand God. If you are speaking mysteries of God - mysteries is exactly what they remain. God wants to be known to all - not a secret.
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He that speaketh in unknown tongue speaketh mysteries, and that is why it says to pray that you may interpret so you can know the mysteries.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

It is not about God not knowing as he knows all things we need before we ask him. It is about he needs to hear it from us before we can can have them. We simply do not know what we really need, but he does, so the Holy Spirit prays through us so we can receive those things God wants to give us. This is why is written, "you have not because you ask not." He have to ask according to his will or we will never get them.
The Holy Spirit knows exactly what the will of God is, and that is why need him desperately. The Lord will never give you something that is bad for you.
 
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