Tongues And Prophecy - Benefit For Whom?

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TalkJesus said:
I am not sure why you think you can read the historical context into the scripture as being the reason for public interpretation when Paul explained why and it was other than that.



I agree. Believers need to not only test the spirits but the tongues they bring because there are familiar spirits in the world that just bring babbling nonsense; tongues that comes with no interpretation. Isaiah 8:19

It is a snare of the devil when believers think God's gift of tongues can be used as a prayer lnaguage when God wants US to pray so that we knew what we had prayed for so that when God answers our prayers, we can do the will of God and give the Father our heartfelt genuine thanks in Jesus's name for answered prayers.

Romans 8:26-27 in the KJV is about how the intercessions of the Spirit's are made known when the Holy Spirit cannot utter them Himself and that is by the Son knowing the mind of the Spirit. That reference was not about speaking in tongues at all.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

Other Bible versions does change the meaning of the words to imply that sounds are being made by the Holy Spirit "Himself" and some switch out the "he" to "the Spirit" in committing a grammatical error.

Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. NIV

This is one reason why many believers think God is using the gift of tongues as a prayer language. Wordless groans imply sound being made and switching out itself with himself, how can they not think the Holy Spirit is doing this? And with the grammatical error in verse 27, they might as well change the he out in all of the verse to "the Spirit" if they wish to commit that nonsense in keeping with that changed message as "the Spirit searching our hearts & knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God".

Like it or not, believers need to rely on the KJV for the meaning of His words because modern Bibles have declined from the testimonies of the Son to support false teachings and obliterate discernment of what is good and evil in these latter days.
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Agreed. Tongues were valid but that day is long past. When the Bible was finished being written, we then had the Word of God.

I have said and say again that tongues and miracles by performed by men are emotional reactions that are more lead by adrenaline than the Holy Spirit. Someone gets excited, wants to be close to God and they begin to babble or utter sounds. Others seeing this that place must then copy what they have seen so as NOT to be left out of the emotional and they think "Spiritual" event that will allow them to be closer to God.

What they are getting close to however is not God but the one who copies God.

I for one am amazed at those who reject the Biblical doctrine of the Rapture because it is a recent revelation from God to Dr. John Darby and validated by Dr. Spuergeon in the 1850's, BUT will accept the non- Biblical teachings of "tongues, miracles and slain in the spirit" when those things were only begun in the early 1920's.
 
Major said:
Agreed. Tongues were valid but that day is long past. When the Bible was finished being written, we then had the Word of God.
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Since tongues with interpretation was for our edification; then having the KJV available does render tongues as circumspect & vanity, especially when every one in the church speaks the same language.

I have said and say again that tongues and miracles by performed by men are emotional reactions that are more lead by adrenaline than the Holy Spirit. Someone gets excited, wants to be close to God and they begin to babble or utter sounds. Others seeing this that place must then copy what they have seen so as NOT to be left out of the emotional and they think "Spiritual" event that will allow them to be closer to God.

What they are getting close to however is not God but the one who copies God.
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There are familiar spirits that bring babbling togues that comes with no interpretations which is one of the reason and line of discernments in testing the spirits as that kind of supernatural tongues can be found in the world, and why many believers are easily misled because it is happening to them.

I for one am amazed at those who reject the Biblical doctrine of the Rapture because it is a recent revelation from God to Dr. John Darby and validated by Dr. Spuergeon in the 1850's, BUT will accept the non- Biblical teachings of "tongues, miracles and slain in the spirit" when those things were only begun in the early 1920's.
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The rapture knowledge is hid; and thus believers are not finding anything in scripture until they lean on the Lord to see it plainly of how three harvests makes up the whole of the finished kingdom of God before Jesus hands it over to the Father.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

As for the crowd following after tongues for a sign, that is what happens when they are not rooted in His words in the KJV.
 
Did Jesus ever speak in tongues?

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Joh 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,

Joh 11:38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

Mar 8:11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.
Mar 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
 
CCW95A said:
Did Jesus ever speak in tongues?

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
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http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B45C008.htm

At the link above, scroll down to verse 26 and click on the last Greek text mirroring that verse and you will find this:

from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of lalew - laleo 2980; unspeakable:--unutterable, which cannot be uttered.
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Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

That means no sound is being uttered at all because the intercessions of the Spirit's are unspeakable; they cannot be uttered. This is why the "he" Whom is the Son of God being testified in verse 27 is the One that searches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit because the man Christ Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man, to present our intercessions as well as the intercessions of the Spirit's so that when the Father says "yes", the Son answers our prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answered prayers. John 14:13-14

Joh 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,

Joh 11:38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

Mar 8:11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.
Mar 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
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When we groan or sigh, we can hear that because it is being uttered; therefore groanings which cannot be uttered means no sound at all.

Therefore Jesus did not speak in God's gift of tongues in those verses you are ascribing to Him as doing.
 
TalkJesus said:
http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B45C008.htm

At the link above, scroll down to verse 26 and click on the last Greek text mirroring that verse and you will find this:



Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

That means no sound is being uttered at all because the intercessions of the Spirit's are unspeakable; they cannot be uttered. This is why the "he" Whom is the Son of God being testified in verse 27 is the One that searches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit because the man Christ Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man, to present our intercessions as well as the intercessions of the Spirit's so that when the Father says "yes", the Son answers our prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answered prayers. John 14:13-14



When we groan or sigh, we can hear that because it is being uttered; therefore groanings which cannot be uttered means no sound at all.

Therefore Jesus did not speak in God's gift of tongues in those verses you are ascribing to Him as doing.
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Ever hear of a guy named "P. C. Nelson? A Greek scholar who is the founder of the "Southwestern Bible Institute", he said the Greek word in Romans 8:26 literally reads, "...the Holy Ghost maketh intercession for us in groaning that cannot be uttered in articulate speech"

Articulate means, "in your normal regular kind of speech" I have never heard anyone groan without some kind of noise, have you?
If there is no noise then there in no groaning. Besides, the Holy Spirit does not pray for us, he only helps us pray, that is why he is called our helper. Also Paul said, "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth...." The Amplified Bible says....

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive [it bears no fruit and helps nobody].
 
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Major said:
Agreed. Tongues were valid but that day is long past. When the Bible was finished being written, we then had the Word of God.

I have said and say again that tongues and miracles by performed by men are emotional reactions that are more lead by adrenaline than the Holy Spirit..
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Brother... With all kindness and respect....
You are wrong.

The Word of John Calvin is NOT scripture.

Be VERY careful about what you declare to be a sham.... You start walking very near to "Blasphemy of the Spirit" ... This is why we are given strict direction to TEST the spirits.... Not simply to reject all out of hand.

My wife was HEALED of epilepsy in a church service when they laid hands on her. This was witnessed by over 50 people. It was subsequently verified by brain scans and she was taken completely off the meds for it. Are you saying that she just randomly happened to get well the INSTANT they laid hands on her? Are you going to claim it is a deception fostered by the Devil?

I agree that there are MANY shysters and deceivers out there... There are far too many searching out ecstatic experiences rather than God himself. Too many churches lining up for the show... Too many leaders completely unwilling or unable to run off Wolves and false teachers....

But that does NOT mean that God has stopped working.
 
Warnings are sometimes mere self-protection and self-validation. I will not write that this is why you wrote the post above, @JohnC , but this was how my old church kept us silent and scared. This is how I automatically see such warnings. Our G-d also tells us to stand up for what is right. Faking tongues, for example, is a solid slap in the face of the H Spirit, Who is G-d. ANYONE who does this or, in my opinion, works it up, should shake in their boots, because they are standing before The Holy G-d, using Him for their own glory, satisfaction, and entertainment. The second commandment is don't take His Name in vain, and faking it is taking His Name in vain, attributing to Him something that is false. They should fall down in horror and repentance before Him.
 
Here is an easy test to use.... Very simple...
Its the test that Moses commanded in Deuteronomy, Paul commanded in many of his Epistles, and Jesus himself commanded....

The MESSAGE validates the Miracle.....
The Miracle does NOT validate the Message.....

The Word of God is true because it's the Word of God... NOT because it is accompanied by a fancy show....
This is where people get sucked in by False Prophets, False Teachers, etc..... They see the MIRACLE - and believe the MESSAGE because of it...... That's the hallmark of the "False Prophet" in Revelation - Everybody believes him BECAUSE of the Miracles.... They are willing to swallow all sorts of garbage because of an AMAZING SHOW....

No.. TOTALLY backwards... According to Moses - When one working MIRACLES teaches a Message DIFFERENT than the Scripture - you STONE him to death!

So.. If someone speaking in Tongues blasphemes in Tongues - CAST HIM OUT....
If a Healer Heals - and then preaches something OTHER than The Gospel - CAST HIM OUT....
If a "Prophet" does all sorts of cool miracles - then brings a message CONTRARY to the Scriptures - CAST HIM OUT...

And... If ANYONE is practicing ANY "Gift" at all as a way to accumulate Wealth, Power, or Following - be extremely suspicious of them..... God gave us gifts to serve OTHERS - not to serve ourselves.

Thanks
 
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Tezrili
I totally understand where you are coming from....
Your example is a perfect example of the abuse that is going on within churches today in the name of "Spiritual Gifts" - and we have to put a stop to it.

Let's take for example - Prophecy....
You will see so called "Prophets" using their "Gifts" as a Hammer - to condemn those who want to investigate their record or who would "Out" them for their deception.... where a TRUE prophet - gifted by God would be PROUD to provide a long list of references for you to check into.... There are "Prophecy teachers" out there who claim 80% is doing REALLY GOOD.... What? That means God intentionally deceives 20% of the people? I don't think so! While God may well harden someone's heart - God himself does not deceive ANYONE..... He has no need to - there's enough madness, hatred, and envy inside Man's heart to deceive himself....

But... it concerns me that folks will get burned and swing 100% the opposite way - claiming that TRUE works of God were not..... It's just as severe an error....

Test the spirits... REJECT those in error....
 
JustPassingThru said:
Hey Rav, good question, the word tongues is glōssa in the New Testament and is used 27 times and all 27 times is it used as know language spoken somewhere on the planet, the only exception, that could by implied, is where he says, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels....," and that is where the confusion begins, is Paul saying he speaks the language of angels or is a comparison for the point he is trying to make that any gift without love is vanity and useless?

Truthfully we just don't know, however, we do know he went to the third Heaven and quite possibly heard angels speaking, but if that were so he also says it would be unlawful to say what he heard, so that kind of tips the scales to where it was a comparison rather than instruction about the language of angels, if we couple that with Isa 8:19,

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

We are informed of the language of the demons, which makes sense that they lost their heavenly language along with their other angelic qualities when they fell, ...personally, that is all I have ever heard from meetings that claim to be speaking in tongues, ...peeping and muttering.

Now let me tell you of an experience I am familiar with that might help you with your question, a church rented a meeting hall in a large hotel for a men's conference, the only hall available at the time had a bar and if they rented the bar they had to pay the bartender. They naturally didn't need the bar but they rented the hall, during the conference on the last day there was a manifestation of tongues, the pastor stopped the meeting and asked for an interpretation, no interpretation came and that started a lot of discussion, some of it favorable and some of it not so favorable, time came to close the meeting and dismiss the men, after everyone had left and they were cleaning up the hall the pastor noticed the bartender pacing back and forth, he assumed he was waiting to be paid, finally when he was alone with just the bartender, the bartender came to him and asked Him about Jesus, curious as to his sudden interest he asked the bartender why, his reply, "I'm Iranian, and I wasn't interested in your conference so I wasn't paying any attention, until today, when that man spoke of the wonderful things of your God in perfect Farsi!" ...The pastor spent some time with him, gave him the Gospel and he believed and received Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

You're smart, I think you can plug in and understand what Paul is telling us in 1 Cor 14 from this incident.

Blessings my brother,

Gene
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Wow farsi..amazing
 
JohnC said:
Brother... With all kindness and respect....
You are wrong.

The Word of John Calvin is NOT scripture.

Be VERY careful about what you declare to be a sham.... You start walking very near to "Blasphemy of the Spirit" ... This is why we are given strict direction to TEST the spirits.... Not simply to reject all out of hand.

My wife was HEALED of epilepsy in a church service when they laid hands on her. This was witnessed by over 50 people. It was subsequently verified by brain scans and she was taken completely off the meds for it. Are you saying that she just randomly happened to get well the INSTANT they laid hands on her? Are you going to claim it is a deception fostered by the Devil?

I agree that there are MANY shysters and deceivers out there... There are far too many searching out ecstatic experiences rather than God himself. Too many churches lining up for the show... Too many leaders completely unwilling or unable to run off Wolves and false teachers....

But that does NOT mean that God has stopped working.
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As you just said.....with all kindness and respect to as well, but I do not agree with your opinion.

I have no idea where John Calvin came from in your comment. No one has mentioned that name until you just did so that is on you not me.

I am extremely glad your wife was healed of epilepsy but I did not say any thing at all about such healing events. YOU have interjected that thought. I believe totally in the healing that God produces through His Spirit BUT not through a man who welds the Holy Spirit as some kind of force that he controles.

I actually am very confused by your comments.

You said..........
"Be VERY careful about what you declare to be a sham.... You start walking very near to "Blasphemy of the Spirit" .

That to me is an insult which you in fact harvested when I said no such thing.

Then in closing you said which agree exactly with my comment............
"I agree that there are MANY shysters and deceivers out there... There are far too many searching out ecstatic experiences rather than God himself. Too many churches lining up for the show... Too many leaders completely unwilling or unable to run off Wolves and false teachers...."

Isn't that exactly what I was doing and YOU in fact agreed with me!
 
CCW95A said:
Ever hear of a guy named "P. C. Nelson? A Greek scholar who is the founder of the "Southwestern Bible Institute", he said the Greek word in Romans 8:26 literally reads, "...the Holy Ghost maketh intercession for us in groaning that cannot be uttered in articulate speech"

Articulate means, "in your normal regular kind of speech" I have never heard anyone groan without some kind of noise, have you?
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P.C. Nelson is wrong.

If the Holy Spirit does actually groan; why mentioned that it cannot be uttered? I believe that is the reason why it was mentioned, otherwise it would be extraneous at best. Even moreso when explaining in the next verse 27 that the One that searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit and so that is why the Holy Spirit does not need to utter His groanings in making these intercessions of His because the One Mediator knows the mind of the Spirit to make the intercessions of the Spirit's for the Spirit. That was why "itself" was used in the KJV and not Himself in verse 26 because the Holy Spirit is no "directly" making His intercessions known.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

If there is no noise then there in no groaning. Besides, the Holy Spirit does not pray for us, he only helps us pray, that is why he is called our helper. Also Paul said, "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth...." The Amplified Bible says....
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive [it bears no fruit and helps nobody].
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The Amplified Bible is wrong; keep verse 13 in context with verse 14 & 15 to understand what Paul is actually saying.

1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. KJV

Paul is saying that whenever anyone speaks in tongues as manifested by the Holy Spirit, they should pray that someone else may interpret that tongue, because Paul admits that it is unfruitful even to himself and so he would pray for the interpretation to the tongue he is saying as manifested by the Holy Spirit so that he would understand it & thus the tongue he is uttering by the Holy Spirit would be fruitful to himself as well as the rest of the assembly.

I can understand why the message would be lost in the Amplified Bible as it is shown below.

1 Corinthians 14:13 Therefore, the person who speaks in an [unknown] tongue should pray [for the power] to interpret and explain what he says. 14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the [a]Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive [it bears no fruit and helps nobody]. 15 Then what am I to do? I will pray with my spirit [by the [b]Holy Spirit that is within me], but I will also pray [intelligently] with my mind and understanding; I will sing with my spirit [by the Holy Spirit that is within me], but I will sing [intelligently] with my mind and understanding also.

What is designated as "my spirit" actually means "my spirit" and not the Holy Spirit in any way, as it ties in with the person who speaks in an [unknown] tongues should be the one that prays, but only Christ can help you see that meaning in Paul's words since it was his desire to understand what was being manifested by the Holy Spirit in the tongues he was saying.
 
JohnC said:
Brother... With all kindness and respect....
You are wrong.

The Word of John Calvin is NOT scripture.
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Well, we are to prove all things and abstain from all appearances of evil, but that does not negate everything John Calvin has said for we prophesy in part & know in part.

Be VERY careful about what you declare to be a sham.... You start walking very near to "Blasphemy of the Spirit" ... This is why we are given strict direction to TEST the spirits.... Not simply to reject all out of hand.
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When scripture reproves the notion that we can never receive Christ Jesus again for He is with us always as filled with the Spirit to never hunger nor thirst any more and thus complete in Christ, then when anyone testifying to receiving tongues with another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, we can easily dismiss all those tongues out of hand.

My wife was HEALED of epilepsy in a church service when they laid hands on her. This was witnessed by over 50 people. It was subsequently verified by brain scans and she was taken completely off the meds for it. Are you saying that she just randomly happened to get well the INSTANT they laid hands on her? Are you going to claim it is a deception fostered by the Devil?
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Did they pray in tongues when they laid hands on her? You left that part out, but even if one or a few of them did pray in tongues, they had no part in that healing, because it is not referred to as a necessity per instruction in scripture.

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

I agree that there are MANY shysters and deceivers out there... There are far too many searching out ecstatic experiences rather than God himself. Too many churches lining up for the show... Too many leaders completely unwilling or unable to run off Wolves and false teachers....

But that does NOT mean that God has stopped working.
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Unfortunately, some of those deceivers can make these claims.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

One has to wonder, are their claims legitimate? Is that why so many were led astray for believing they can receive the Holy Spirit "again" and by a sign, thus inviting believers to seek after this "second blessing" and not after Christ?

The problem here is that you are not defending the faith in Christ Jesus by that example you had given. You used that to defend tongues that comes with no interpretation as if it can be used as a prayer language. That is akin to giving credit to tongues over Jesus Christ for the healing of your wife, and yet scripture in James testify that tongues has nothing to do with it. The effectual fervent prayers of a righteous man is what availeth much; there is no mention of the prayers of the Holy Spirit is what it is that availeth much, but if you use the errant Amplified Bible also, I can understand why you would think so.
 
JohnC said:
Here is an easy test to use.... Very simple...
Its the test that Moses commanded in Deuteronomy, Paul commanded in many of his Epistles, and Jesus himself commanded....

The MESSAGE validates the Miracle.....
The Miracle does NOT validate the Message.....

The Word of God is true because it's the Word of God... NOT because it is accompanied by a fancy show....
This is where people get sucked in by False Prophets, False Teachers, etc..... They see the MIRACLE - and believe the MESSAGE because of it...... That's the hallmark of the "False Prophet" in Revelation - Everybody believes him BECAUSE of the Miracles.... They are willing to swallow all sorts of garbage because of an AMAZING SHOW....

No.. TOTALLY backwards... According to Moses - When one working MIRACLES teaches a Message DIFFERENT than the Scripture - you STONE him to death!

So.. If someone speaking in Tongues blasphemes in Tongues - CAST HIM OUT....
If a Healer Heals - and then preaches something OTHER than The Gospel - CAST HIM OUT....
If a "Prophet" does all sorts of cool miracles - then brings a message CONTRARY to the Scriptures - CAST HIM OUT...

And... If ANYONE is practicing ANY "Gift" at all as a way to accumulate Wealth, Power, or Following - be extremely suspicious of them..... God gave us gifts to serve OTHERS - not to serve ourselves.

Thanks
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Actually, we are to correct them by the scripture first and then if unrepentant before the whole congregation, then cast him or her out.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Now Jesus is not saying to condemn that "brother" but teaching us how to treat those that are excommunicated in the hopes that it will lead them to repentance since the whole point was to avoid having Him go after the lost sheep Himself.

Paul clarified that point when withdrawing from the unrepentant brother that he is still a brother to be admonished as a brother and not as an enemy. That was followi9ng the chapter on those people that God permitted a strong delusion to occur.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;.....14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

So Matthew 18:10-17 is Jesus testifying to His promise to get the lost sheep left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event after gathering the 99 sheep in His barn, but while there is time, lead as many to repentance as He enables us to.
 
TalkJesus said:
P.C. Nelson is wrong.

If the Holy Spirit does actually groan; why mentioned that it cannot be uttered? I believe that is the reason why it was mentioned, otherwise it would be extraneous at best. Even moreso when explaining in the next verse 27 that the One that searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit and so that is why the Holy Spirit does not need to utter His groaning in making these intercessions of His because the One Mediator knows the mind of the Spirit to make the intercessions of the Spirit's for the Spirit. That was why "itself" was used in the KJV and not Himself in verse 26 because the Holy Spirit is no "directly" making His intercessions known.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself machete intercession for us with groaning which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.



The Amplified Bible is wrong; keep verse 13 in context with verse 14 & 15 to understand what Paul is actually saying.

1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. KJV

Paul is saying that whenever anyone speaks in tongues as manifested by the Holy Spirit, they should pray that someone else may interpret that tongue, because Paul admits that it is unfruitful even to himself and so he would pray for the interpretation to the tongue he is saying as manifested by the Holy Spirit so that he would understand it & thus the tongue he is uttering by the Holy Spirit would be fruitful to himself as well as the rest of the assembly.

I can understand why the message would be lost in the Amplified Bible as it is shown below.

1 Corinthians 14:13 Therefore, the person who speaks in an [unknown] tongue should pray [for the power] to interpret and explain what he says. 14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the [a]Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive [it bears no fruit and helps nobody]. 15 Then what am I to do? I will pray with my spirit [by the [b]Holy Spirit that is within me], but I will also pray [intelligently] with my mind and understanding; I will sing with my spirit [by the Holy Spirit that is within me], but I will sing [intelligently] with my mind and understanding also.

What is designated as "my spirit" actually means "my spirit" and not the Holy Spirit in any way, as it ties in with the person who speaks in an [unknown] tongues should be the one that prays, but only Christ can help you see that meaning in Paul's words since it was his desire to understand what was being manifested by the Holy Spirit in the tongues he was saying.
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The Holy Spirit does not pray for us on his own. We pray by the Holy Spirit, because we do not know what to pray for. We know how to pray, we just dont know what we are to for. Since we are not to worry about tomorrow, and don't know what will happen tomorrow but the Holy Spirit does. If the Spirit knows all these things it would very smart to allow him to give us this utterance. Jesus "groaned in spirit" by the Holy Spirit.

Joh 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,

If Jesus groaned in spirit, and he did, how then do we know he did if it is not heard? Someone had to hear it. John was there and he heard it.
 
CCW95A said:
The Holy Spirit does not pray for us on his own. We pray by the Holy Spirit, because we do not know what to pray for. We know how to pray, we just dont know what we are to for. Since we are not to worry about tomorrow, and don't know what will happen tomorrow but the Holy Spirit does. If the Spirit knows all these things it would very smart to allow him to give us this utterance. Jesus "groaned in spirit" by the Holy Spirit.

Joh 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,

If Jesus groaned in spirit, and he did, how then do we know he did if it is not heard? Someone had to hear it. John was there and he heard it.
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I believe you are allowing the errant assumptions of the Amplified Bible to keep adding to His words when it is not saying that.

Sinners groan and sigh. Does that mean they are praying in tongues by the Holy Spirit? Of course not. Then do not apply that to Jesus or to the believers as if groaning and sighing means praying in the tongues.

Now let's examine the necessity for something to be uttered as supposedly enabled by the Holy Spirit for us to pray;

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

So how can the Father know before we ask anything in prayer? Because the Son of God that searches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit has made our intercessions and the intercessions of the Spirit's for us before we ask anything in prayer. This is why the intercessions of the Spirit's are unspeakable; that means when we fail to know what to pray for, the Holy Spirit does due to His role as our Comforter, but He does not "pray" because He is not the One uttering them, the Son of God is by knowing the mind of the Spirit as there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus as what Paul was referring to when writing "in according to the will of God" at the end of verse 27 in Romans 8.

Therefore, believers are reading Romans 8:26-27 wrong and errant modern Bibles are the cause. The KJV has it right, but even then, believers need His wisdom in understanding Paul's words because of the mentality of seeing their errant teachings and false assumptions because of those errant teaching into the reading of His words and the words of His disciples.
 
TalkJesus said:
I believe you are allowing the errant assumptions of the Amplified Bible to keep adding to His words when it is not saying that.

Sinners groan and sigh. Does that mean they are praying in tongues by the Holy Spirit? Of course not. Then do not apply that to Jesus or to the believers as if groaning and sighing means praying in the tongues.

Now let's examine the necessity for something to be uttered as supposedly enabled by the Holy Spirit for us to pray;

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

So how can the Father know before we ask anything in prayer? Because the Son of God that searches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit has made our intercessions and the intercessions of the Spirit's for us before we ask anything in prayer. This is why the intercessions of the Spirit's are unspeakable; that means when we fail to know what to pray for, the Holy Spirit does due to His role as our Comforter, but He does not "pray" because He is not the One uttering them, the Son of God is by knowing the mind of the Spirit as there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus as what Paul was referring to when writing "in according to the will of God" at the end of verse 27 in Romans 8.

Therefore, believers are reading Romans 8:26-27 wrong and errant modern Bibles are the cause. The KJV has it right, but even then, believers need His wisdom in understanding Paul's words because of the mentality of seeing their errant teachings and false assumptions because of those errant teaching into the reading of His words and the words of His disciples.
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Did you not notice that even though the Father knows what we have need of before we ask, we still have to ask for it. We have not because we ask not. Since we do not know what it is we really need unless the Spirit God tells what to pray for. Someone has to pray, and Spirit of God does not to do it on his own. You are missing the fact that the father always knows what we have need of, but we don't unless we pray by help of the Spirit of God through us.
 
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