The Purpose Of Governments

[Great Fiction]

Actually, I believe our current president is God's choice for America. He is an instrument of judgment on our nation for walking away from God. There are multiple scriptures declaring that God himself puts governors, judges and kings in place.

Welcome Deborah

That is an interesting perspective and your admonition is received.

With our expanded covenant with Christ, I hope America surges toward liberty, virtue and integrity once more, then also embracing our Lord to the fullest.

I will pray for revival, and am encouraged that a plethora of good ministries still serve our Gracious Lord.

 

[R-C]

I haven't figured out how to post/paste without including both quotation by others of my entry as as well as theirs thus making my attempts to respond very cumbersome . I will continue to try as this is a pleasant and interesting exchange so far.

 

[R-C]

So then, by your comment of.............."As this is a Christian forum, we can easily assert that God created us with the ability and duty to govern ourselves, this being hampered by our sinful nature"....
wouldn't you say that forms of govt. are in place to control chaos even on this web site????

Lets see if this effort will prove successful in quoting only the response and not my own entry... Looks like I have some tapatalk chaos of my own.

I would agree that this website has a form of government. While I am happy it exists, it is a venture founded by, I assume, one, who has extended to others an invitation to join. I assume too that since we were invited, we had better abide by the founder's rules.

 

[R-C]

Great,Fiction: I attempted to include your responses by quote, just as you had done, but was unsuccessful. I don't know if it is simply my own limitation or a limitation of tapatalk. This will make responding fully a greater challenge, but I will try....

As to the island scenario. I do not believe the lone dissenter should be forced to join the others. He is free to decline and free to engage the group for the purpose of arriving at something more agreeable.

 

[R-C]

My reference there to, "the nature of man" was intended to refer to both man in his natural state which includes a recognition of his sinful nature.

 

[R-C]

Regarding the consent of the governed,once a foundational government, compact or covenant has been established, representation or referendum would trump consent unless the proposal would be in contravention of the original agreement.

 

[R-C]

When you use the term, "despotism", what do you mean? I hope not to seem silly in asking, but words do not always enjoy universal definitions.

Though I would like to understand most clearly, I will assume, until you correct me, that we can agree that despotism is at least a form of government which takes for itself very broad powers and might be illustrated as a very steep pyramid , if not an obelisk. If so, cannot such a form of government rule in a moral manner?

 

[R-C]

Actually, I believe our current president is God's choice for America. He is an instrument of judgment on our nation for walking away from God. There are multiple scriptures declaring that God himself puts governors, judges and kings in place.

I do not like my own opinion which has come to be that God will give us that which we deserve. Though I want badly to respect and honor the office, I cannot bring myself to respect its current occupant. I will confess to being more partisan, at times, than, perhaps, I should, but I believe God has allowed this mistake to take this position due to our own hard hearts. But this is not exclusive to any one party as both sides of the aisle seem to have lost sight as to why they are there. I do hope we will experience a spiritual and national revival.

 

[R-C]

Welcome Deborah

That is an interesting perspective and your admonition is received.

With our expanded covenant with Christ, I hope America surges toward liberty, virtue and integrity once more, then also embracing our Lord to the fullest.

I will pray for revival, and am encouraged that a plethora of good ministries still serve our Gracious Lord.

Do you have hope for this? Why?

 

[Major]

Lets see if this effort will prove successful in quoting only the response and not my own entry... Looks like I have some tapatalk chaos of my own.

I would agree that this website has a form of government. While I am happy it exists, it is a venture founded by, I assume, one, who has extended to others an invitation to join. I assume too that since we were invited, we had better abide by the founder's rules.

Exactly my point. The owner, originator then placed authority in moderators and their function is to keep the members from verbally ki;;ing one another. That means........"They are controlling the chaos"!!!!

 

[Major]

In ancient days, people saw the hand of God everywhere in nature and believed that He was causing natural disasters. It seems to me that today, most people fail to see the hand of God anywhere. Could it be that the truth is somewhere between theses two?

As a question, is there a correlation between so-called "natural disasters" and breaking the commandments of God? Sometimes both events are found side-by-side on the front page of the newspaper. For example, on June 7, 1998, some Florida newspapers reported the beginning of a huge wild fire in central Florida and also applauded the successful Gay Day celebration at Disney World, also in central Florida, both having occurred on the previous day.

Now, was that just a coincidence that those events occurred together? Was there a message being sent by God???

Another example: For example, on Oct. 17, 1989, a magnitude 7.1 earthquake hit San Francisco during a Pro Abortion Rally.

I would suggest that a lot of thought be given to this. Everyone wants to believe that God speaks but I say that He is talking to us all the time and we just do not want to hear Him.

I am no expert on this, or anything else for that matter but there is a lot of information out there on this. It seems that history tells us that when someone in authority speaks out against Israel and their need to give up more land, a disaster happens usually within 48 hours.

You can not help but think that God shakes the world wne we try to tell Him what to do with the Promised Land He gave Israel. I would encourage all of you to look up these factual events than ask yourself again if God is speaking to us.

January 16, 1994: Northridge Earthquake—President Bill Clinton meets with Syria's President Hafez el-Assad in Geneva. They talk about a peace agreement with Israel that includes giving up the Golan Heights. Within 24 hours, a powerful 6.9 earthquake rocks
Southern California.

January 21, 1998: Lewinsky Scandal—Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu meets with President Clinton at the White House and is coldly that day, the Monica Lewinsky scandal breaks into the mass media and begins to occupy a major portion of Clinton's time.
October 15-22, 1998: Texas Flooded—On October 15, 1998, Arafat and Netanyahu meet at the Wye River Plantation in Maryland. The talks are scheduled to last five days with the focus on Israel giving up 13 percent of Yesha. The talks are extended and conclude on October 23. On October 17, awesome rains and tornadoes hit southern Texas. The San Antonio area is deluged with rain. The rain and flooding in Texas continue until October 22 and then subside. The flood ravage 25 percent of Texas and leave over one billion dollars in damage. On October 21, Clinton declares
this section of Texas a major disaster area.

That is only 3 I copied and pasted. There many many more examples.

 

[R-C]

That present day Israel is that which was we were told to expect is not universally held even among evangelicals. For my part, I do not know how we could think it is otherwise. Regardless, my view of Mid East policy is that it should be: don't mess with Israel. Even from a secular perspective, there is little which should qualify our support of them as they are the only democracy over there, the only nation which seems quite content on minding only it's own business- if only allowed to. I suppose we can review their history and find instances of them acting in a manner we might wish they had not, but within the region, is there really anything to complain about as to their policies?

 

[JohnC]

To drag this back to my OP....

My issue is really more that I feel our entire government (Both sides of the political coin) has sort of picked a dangerous course....

And... I feel there is an important lesson in Nimrod and Babel......

Nimrod built the tower of Babel as a way to cement his OWN power.. To put the people's trust in HIM rather than in God.... His assertion was "Let God try to flood us out again! - My tower will save us!"

Do we spend our precious resources trying to buffer AGAINST the Will of God.... Or do we spend our precious resources trying to NOT get on God's bad side - requiring His Judgement - in the first place?

See... The lesson of Babel is that Man will NOT limit God...

 

[Roads]

Do we spend our precious resources trying to buffer AGAINST the Will of God.... Or do we spend our precious resources trying to NOT get on God's bad side - requiring His Judgement - in the first place?

And what is the will of God? Does God will for people to obey Him out of obligation? Or is He instead, as the scriptures teach, "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9). If God requires repentance, what is obligatory obedience but just another empty attempt to "buffer against the will of God"?

If most of the people in your country don't want to obey laws derived from Christian ethics, they'll only rebel against a government that tries to force them to do so. The practical reality of living in a democracy is that unless the government is prepared to manipulate its people in some way, such as though propaganda or force of violence (at which point it ceases to actually be functioning as a democracy), a government that does not represent the will of the majority will not be able to remain in office, and will simply be replaced.

The church will best spend its resources doing the work of the church: caring for those in need and calling for the people to repent, that they might turn to God of their own free will. Jesus demonstrated that the only one way to be spared from God's judgement is by repentance. Similarly, OT promises for God to spare Israel are worded as pleas for each individual person to decide to repent for themselves.

Compare, for example, this OT promise with the teaching of Christ:

Ezekiel 18
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”

Luke 13
1Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? 3“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4“Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

Don't take my word for it, examine the scriptures for yourself, and see if there is something besides repentance that can spare anyone from any amount of God's judgement. Force a nation to "get on God's good side" against its will? It's just not going to happen. Even if you could manage to change legislation in favor of Christian values, what good is that to spare anyone from judgement, if there is no repentance?

Why not just do the work of the church in the way that God's already asked us to do it?

 

[Major]

That present day Israel is that which was we were told to expect is not universally held even among evangelicals. For my part, I do not know how we could think it is otherwise. Regardless, my view of Mid East policy is that it should be: don't mess with Israel. Even from a secular perspective, there is little which should qualify our support of them as they are the only democracy over there, the only nation which seems quite content on minding only it's own business- if only allowed to. I suppose we can review their history and find instances of them acting in a manner we might wish they had not, but within the region, is there really anything to complain about as to their policies?

Amen brother!

 

[Major]

To drag this back to my OP....

My issue is really more that I feel our entire government (Both sides of the political coin) has sort of picked a dangerous course....

And... I feel there is an important lesson in Nimrod and Babel......

Nimrod built the tower of Babel as a way to cement his OWN power.. To put the people's trust in HIM rather than in God.... His assertion was "Let God try to flood us out again! - My tower will save us!"

Do we spend our precious resources trying to buffer AGAINST the Will of God.... Or do we spend our precious resources trying to NOT get on God's bad side - requiring His Judgement - in the first place?

See... The lesson of Babel is that Man will NOT limit God...

Just asking now........do you think Nimrod may have had the idea of going to heaven by walking up one of his towers???
You see, that would by pass Gods will and become "works" by man to be saved.

Any thoughts on that?

 

[JohnC]

Just asking now........do you think Nimrod may have had the idea of going to heaven by walking up one of his towers???
You see, that would by pass Gods will and become "works" by man to be saved.

Any thoughts on that?

I wrestled with the meaning of this passage many times.. I have pages and pages in my "Random musings" notebook with stuff like what you commented... I am not saying you are not partially right - but I was never really satisfied with it... It finally clicked when I read Josephus...

Here's part of why...
Genesis 11:6 "...this they begin to do; and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do"

What was truly behind WHAT they imagined to do?

And.. Why would the Scripture have included the specific detail about Burnt brick and Asphalt/tar?

Physically building a tower into outer space wouldn't be any concern to God. AKA - they would run into the limitations of the building materials... and if they REALLY got it tall - they would simply run out of air.... God knows that....
And.. If that is the root of their SIN - then why does God allow space programs and sky scrapers?

God's Heaven is outside of the 4 dimensions we can directly experience - not just up there above the clouds... a building built of burnt brick that is sealed with tar doesn't inherently create a portal outside of our 4 knowable dimensions.. My experience is that there's certainly nothing "heavenly" about being inside a block building..... and God knows this too...

BUT.... If their motive was to make it impossible for God to exact his justified wrath upon them....

It would make sense why God had to demonstrate a little something about His nature to them.....

It's kinda like how when you sneak out the window when you are grounded and discover Dad planted a gigantic, thorny bush right outside your window.... Bet you didn't figure on THAT being there....

What got me... Notice how God does the SAME thing to us... and we STILL don't get the message....

We build an amazing social welfare system - and somehow, poverty gets worse....
We build an amazing Disaster relief system - and somehow, we can never manage to be ready for any ACTUAL disaster in real life...
We build a gigantic and powerful military - and somehow, God sends small, weak, disorganized enemies that manage to defeat us because we lose the stomach to fight...
We spend more money per student on education than anyone else in the world - and we can't manage to break the bottom half of the pack in any meaningful Education measure...
Etc...

For a long time, I thought it was because of incompetence.. That if we got the right people in office... Appointed the right sort of leaders - this stuff would come together....

I am realizing that it won't.... That we are missing the point.

 

[Great Fiction]

When you say, “the individuals will agree to release some of their individual freedom I order that the objectives identified can be realized,” how does this “release translate into real world where government or organized political means will materialize. In short, how does a release happen?

Lets say 100 people want to start a government on a large island, and 99 are in agreement to “release some of their individual freedom," to build a social contract or constitution, but the one does not consent. Is it “moral” to force the one person to agree with the social contract or leave him be?

As to the island scenario. I do not believe the lone dissenter should be forced to join the others. He is free to decline and free to engage the group for the purpose of arriving at something more agreeable.

Going a step further, since you agree that the one dissenter can remain independent, do you feel the dissenter also has a moral right to form his own government on his own property?”

Also going further, what about the 99 peoples posterity, will the children who are born from the 99 also have a right to dissent or secede on their own property since they did not “personally consent” to the compact that the 99 agreed upon?

Also what “foundational rights” should be in place?” You also mention “natural man,” are you referring to “nature of man” as man being in the State of Nature from creation, or simply pointing to “man's” general inclination to sin?

My reference there to, "the nature of man" was intended to refer to both man in his natural state which includes a recognition of his sinful nature.

I believe in Natural Law in the Lockean tradition that “Natural Man” is born with a delegation from God to possess at birth certain inalienable rights. Many U.S. founders also embraced Lockean Natural Rights and Natural Law. The Bill of Rights for example is a “ deontological code” supporting Natural Law. The term Rule of Law was rationalized in context to natural law according to Lockean thought. Yet today the “rule of law” is to mean any kind of interventionist ideology imaginable.

The Natural Law position puts the individual in the highest position of authority over their own bodies and their faculties “on earth,” delegated by God. Also extending to physical property ownership which is honestly appropriated. Only God can trump this authority for it was He Himself who delegated it. When a civil authority trumps Gods delegation of natural rights to the individual then that civil authority is in conflict with Natural Law and is therefore illegitimate.

When you say, “A central government, founded by self governed individuals can do well whatever might be the tasks given to it so long as the people who gave it authority consent to its tasks and methods for achieving them as well as their support for the entity,” does that mean every person must give their consent, or do you believe that referendums or representation trumps every persons consent?

Regarding the consent of the governed,once a foundational government, compact or covenant has been established, representation or referendum would trump consent unless the proposal would be in contravention of the original agreement.

Thus based on your answers you would support the one person dissenting, who arrived at the island with the other 99, but you would not support secession with the posterity born from the 99, and you would elevate referendums and representation higher than the posterities right to secede, unless “new legislation or law” falls to conflict with the first and prevailing contract?

Feel free to reprove anything I am saying about your responses, for I have no license to put words in your mouth.

If this is correct can you use scripture to ethically justify why the posterity of the 99 when grown to adulthood must conform to the original contract of the 99?

Just as a point of reference to know my context, I am a Classical Liberal. I do believe in “ethical government” or a “strictly liberal State.” I believe all forms of despotism to be immoral.

When you use the term, "despotism", what do you mean? I hope not to seem silly in asking, but words do not always enjoy universal definitions.

Though I would like to understand most clearly, I will assume, until you correct me, that we can agree that despotism is at least a form of government which takes for itself very broad powers and might be illustrated as a very steep pyramid , if not an obelisk. If so, cannot such a form of government rule in a moral manner?

Despot - French despote, from Medieval Latin despota, from the Greek despotes, which roughly means "master" or "one with power" (interpreted also as a tyrant).
In history the most common use is “dictator/ or tyrant” or one who has “power,” controlling people to their harm using oppression.
(Tyrant - “a sovereign or other ruler who uses power oppressively or unjustly)”
Then also interpreted “despotism” to be a form of government for absolute power.

Application – A person, group, institution, organization, or government that will control innocent people to their harm using unjust power and force.
Thus how can a person or government exercise unjust power and force against another “ethically?” They cannot because unjust power and force is “illegitimate and immoral” being in conflict with “Natural Law” that God delegated to mankind on our natural earth. Thus to “steal, kill and destroy” constitutes “despotic action and is inherently immoral.”

 

[Great Fiction]

Do you have hope for this? Why?

yes, I not only hope but believe its highly possible that America can supersede the liberty we had in the beginning, but this time without hideous slavery, and despotism. Liberty comes from integrity and ethics, and when liberty is seated, the church is premised and poised to reach the lost, the broken hearted and the helpless.

For I believe its our mission

 

[Great Fiction]

Exactly my point. The owner, originator then placed authority in moderators and their function is to keep the members from verbally ki;;ing one another. That means........"They are controlling the chaos"!!!!

Yet this great forum is a participatory model organized and maintained privately.

If government owned it, then it would fall to compulsion, or manufacture another tragedy of the commons.