The Purpose Of Governments

No...
I asked whether the Government must be bound to follow the will of the people...
NOT..
Whether the elected representatives of a Government generally be made up of it's constituency....

"Everyone doing what is right in their own eyes" is a sign that society has run off the rails....

Well I don't really see how I didn't answer the first "question," but I'll give it another go. If the people are instead to be bound to follow the will of the government, will that do anything to actually turn those people's hearts toward God? Is it our job to keep society "on the rails" against its will? Can you find evidence of that in scripture? Is that Christ's example? We should be advocating repentance, not obligatory morals.

In the bible....
Democracy is NEVER advocated....
The will of the people is always suspect.....
And the Final Arbiter is God....

Jesus and Paul's direction had to do with violence, sedition, and revolution against the government... Being a "Good" citizen of the government you HAVE. This has nothing to do with preventing participation in the political process that is specifically declared a "Right" of citizens....

Well, democracy is the government, arguably :), that we do have, at the moment. Is there some Biblical evidence that we should be trying to change that? Either way, we're still faced with the question of whether the hearts of people change from the top down, through legislation, or whether governments change from the bottom up, by being answerable to the people.

At any rate, what you are describing is the Kingdom where, as Christians, our true citizenship lies. There is no indication in scripture that our job is to make unbelievers behave as if they are also part of the Kingdom.

1 Cor 5
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?13But those who are outside, God judges.

The things you are talking about... that's for the Church. It's our responsibility to keep sin out of the church, not sin out of the society beyond the Church, unless you can find some scripture that teaches something different?

So let's do the job God's clearly given us (which is make disciples of the nations, not to rule them) and let Him do His job in the way that He sees fit, yes?
 
And... You dodged my question again....

So... I will answer it myself...
No. God never authorized the Mob to rule... We should learn from that...
If "The will of the people" was God's primary concern - Moses would have lead Israel back to Egypt. Now.. God did clearly hear the Cries of the People - and it influenced various decisions (both for good and for bad)....

Do we influence Government or does Government influence us? Both... It's always been both...

As I read more scripture and consider the question more.. I am coming to think that we are required to do something in the civil realm.... but - as a general rule, we are to take action through the existing, established channels that were established for such.

By my reading we should...
Provide true testimony for the things we personally witness
Present such testimony to the appointed leaders
Work with the appointed leaders to seek judgements and/or changes
Abide by those judgements once issued assuming they don't violate critical, central tenets of our faith - such as requiring our participation in idolatry, sexual immorality, murder, etc.

If you are not personally a Witness or an appointed official - that makes you the Mob..... As such - you have no standing to present testimony or to issue judgement..... Emotion and opinion not withstanding.... Unfortunately, that's where we seem to be going wrong:
Giving credence to people who don't have standing as a true witness pertaining to issues
Giving credence to people who have no Authority to pass judgement..
 
So what would be the government called that was back in Moses's day, when he took the advice of his father and appointed a man over 10, and a man over 50, and a man over 100, etc. And if something couldn't be settled through them, then it came to Moses? (that's if I remember correctly)

Also, any inclination as to what government our King O Kings will have upon His return? Books will be opened. Will the apostles and the House of Israel be the top government officials?
 
Because it would be "immoral" to support a compulsory government to do anything arbitrary
A government who uses arbitrary violence to "transform" a country is an illegitimate government, for they use unjust law to manufacture a proposed justice.
Oliver Cromwell tried it with intensity

What does that even mean? I tried to unravel it 3 times and got a headache.

Regarding organized political means, if there are some, whether a minority or a majority, who will route or influence the law to arbitrary ends, they will then license their government to engage all of its citizens with unjust law using arbitrary despotic force, which renders that government immoral and illegitimate.

Thus I contend that a Strictly Liberal State grounded in Natural Rights Theory is the only ethical government constructed by mankind.
 
And... You dodged my question again....

So... I will answer it myself...
No. God never authorized the Mob to rule... We should learn from that...

Dude. I'm not trying to dodge your question. You're asking me what I think the government "should" be like. I'm responding by saying that the Bible doesn't attempt to comment on whether we "should" try to make the governments of secular nations like anything in particular at all (except that it suggests we shouldn't be a threat to the established social order we are under, as you have already pointed out yourself).

What the Bible does attempt to comment on, though, is what God's Church should be like. God never did "authorize" the mob to rule, and here's what we should learn from that: the Church must submit to God, and its members to one another. When it comes to the world outside of the Church, it is our place to preach repentance, not to obligate secular society to conform to Christian morals through legislation.
 
Haha, yeah take it easy on us GreatFiction! I think he's trying to say is that the government should reflect the will of the people, instead of the people being expected to reflect the will of the government.

Hello Roads

I believe that Government must be rigidly "strict" in the confines of ethics. Strictly Liberal, then giving no room for any compromise, not even for one regulation, one law, or one ruling that crosses the lines of life, liberty and property is immoral.
 
So what would be the government called that was back in Moses's day, when he took the advice of his father and appointed a man over 10, and a man over 50, and a man over 100, etc. And if something couldn't be settled through them, then it came to Moses? (that's if I remember correctly)

Despotism would probably be the best term to describe any ancient form of government where one individual is the final authority. Although, I think it would be fair to refer to ancient Hebrew government as a Theocracy.

Also, any inclination as to what government our King O Kings will have upon His return? Books will be opened. Will the apostles and the House of Israel be the top government officials?

It's above my pay grade to know the exact answer to that questions, but I think we can make a pretty fair bet it won't be a democracy:) You introduce a relevant topic, though, that I was hoping we could all discuss: God does have a plan for a particular Kingdom, but He will set it up, in the way He wants, at the time He wants. It's not our place to jump the gun on Him and try to set it up ourselves now.
 
So what would be the government called that was back in Moses's day, when he took the advice of his father and appointed a man over 10, and a man over 50, and a man over 100, etc. And if something couldn't be settled through them, then it came to Moses? (that's if I remember correctly)

A Kritarchy
Also, any inclination as to what government our King O Kings will have upon His return? Books will be opened. Will the apostles and the House of Israel be the top government officials?

Divine Eternal Monarchy
 
If you are not personally a Witness or an appointed official - that makes you the Mob..... As such - you have no standing to present testimony or to issue judgement..... Emotion and opinion not withstanding.... Unfortunately, that's where we seem to be going wrong:
Giving credence to people who don't have standing as a true witness pertaining to issues
Giving credence to people who have no Authority to pass judgement..

Kind of interesting, though, how the "mob" were Jesus' favorite people to hang out with...

We don't need to issue judgment anywhere but within the Church.

There is no authority except which God has given.

Is there a greater authority than God? If we have His Spirit, we have all the authority we need to bear testimony.
 
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As I read more scripture and consider the question more.. I am coming to think that we are required to do something in the civil realm.... but - as a general rule, we are to take action through the existing, established channels that were established for such.

The scriptures teach that we are to become all things to all men for the sake of the gospel. I can't speak for all places, but where I am (a very low socio-economic area in Australia), people are skeptical of the government and any other official authority. A message that comes from an "established channel" is likely to be ignored outright, specifically because of its source. I mean, people around here drive into dangerous flood waters just because there's a sign there saying they can't do it... A message that comes from "established channels" is not a message to be respected, not 'round these parts, anyway.

But a message that comes from someone who has proven themselves to genuinely care about them? That's the message that's going to be heard. "Required to do something in the civil realm?" I don't know, man. I don't think it's bad to so something in the civil realm to help people out. But "required?" We're required to preach the gospel of repentance in a way that will be understood by the people we're talking to.

If you can manage to find a group of people somewhere that only respect and heed a message from "official" leaders, well, go for it, I guess. But let's not make it a rule about what we all "should" be doing, because I've never heard of a place where people trust a politician to teach them about the best way to be living their lives.
 
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A Kritarchy


Divine Eternal Monarchy

I believe Kritarchy was under the book of judges. Specifically it is government by judges.

The second is correctly understood as theocracy which is government ruled by a deity.

A closely related government is ecclesiastical which is operated by a church such as Vatican city.

None have worked effectively save for ancient Israel because they had actual prophets. Most forms which attempt such a government tend to degenerate rather quickly. Separation of church and state from a church perspective is actually even more important that from the states perspective. Separation is not to protect the state from the evils of the church, it protects the church from the evils of the state.
 
I do enjoy a good discussion in civics. The originator of this thread asked: what is the purpose of government. Clearly, the purpose is to govern those under its authority to the exclusion of others. This task can be carried out in any number of ways, but we should likely accept first that there exists a very clear need for government. We have to be careful because many believers can argue themselves into promoting anarchy.

Government is necessary, but not all governance is good, right or proper. Is it wrong that there are govt subsidies? I can quickly argue that such is wrong, but doesn't a nation have an interest in promoting policies and practices which go toward establishing a steady supply of food? So, we must take care to not assign the wrong motives to instances of good public policy having what we perceive to be as bad programs.

I have come to believe that most forms of government can be good or bad depending upon who is doing the governing. And while legislation and programs can exist in ways which confuse the population as to God, his sovereignty and activity, when God's patience has expired, nothing created by man will impede him. And in such instances if man does not recognize the sovereign Lord in action, it is due to man's hard heart and fallen nature.

While all these are true, one can leave room for excuse in most forms of govt history has shown us. I do not think we in the US, or even in all that is considered the Western World, can have much excuse for promoting or accepting legislation and policies which are contrary to Christ and His will as we have fewer impediments to holding our governors accountable.
 
I believe Kritarchy was under the book of judges. Specifically it is government by judges.

The second is correctly understood as theocracy which is government ruled by a deity.

A closely related government is ecclesiastical which is operated by a church such as Vatican city.

None have worked effectively save for ancient Israel because they had actual prophets. Most forms which attempt such a government tend to degenerate rather quickly. Separation of church and state from a church perspective is actually even more important that from the states perspective. Separation is not to protect the state from the evils of the church, it protects the church from the evils of the state.

What is a Kritarchy?

Kritarchy – From the Greek words kritès (judge) or krito (to judge) and archè (principle, cause), was first used in 1844 by Robert Southy.

Though explanations will vary slightly regarding what a Kritarchy is, I find that there are two common threads that tie most all interpretations together. The first is that Israel in the book of judges is the originating manifestation of a Kritarchy. The second is that “law or justice” is homogeneous in a decentralized judge/court system, which will rule autonomously to locally uphold the law. There is no “political institution” but is instead a decentralized “political system” executing embraced “just-law.”

However I am not satisfied yet that ceremonial law was decentralized?

For a modern Kritarchy the judge is not the highest official in the land in the “apotheosis of society” sense, but is simply elected, selected, or employed to react “legally” to charged trespasses. Arbitration would vary depending on how each location elects to handle it. Also the law itself can vary being a common law code, a natural law code or a divine law code. Also a Kritarchial system of judges is void of centralized statutes or higher courts.

There is one definition I found which gives a Kritarchy a meaning that resonates best for me.
The distinctive characteristic of a kritarchy is therefore that it is a political system without the institution of political rule. If one thinks of it as ‘the rule of judges’, one should remember that these judges enjoy no particular privileges or special powers. It is ‘the rule of law’, not the rule of legislators, judges or any other category of privileged officials.”- Frank van Dun

With Moses, the law, which he delivered, was the “Old testament Mosaic Law,” which in contradiction to a Kritarchy supported a sole judge (Moses), and “not judges” until his father-in-law influenced him to delegate. After Moses delegated authority to other judges it was then that a Kritarchy can be meaningful, but not technically accurate.

I think a theocracy is indeed more compatible, yet they were nomadic instead of being attached to an owned and fixed territory. However you could build a rebuttal to defend theocracy again by saying that Locke's axiom for property ownership qualifies the dessert as their property, since no others would challenge usage. Also to splitting hairs, before Moses delegated any authority “which was brief” he was not an “authoritative body” being a sole leader.

I stand feeble to defend that Moses operated a proper Kritarchy yet he did promulgate the judge based system. But you could bring a returning good rebuttal again that would say that they were not decentralized in a geographical territory. Thus I must concede that your term of Theocracy is more accurate than my Kritarchy. Once they settled and decentralized, then it became proper.

Thank you for your admonishment
 
I do enjoy a good discussion in civics. The originator of this thread asked: what is the purpose of government. Clearly, the purpose is to govern those under its authority to the exclusion of others. This task can be carried out in any number of ways, but we should likely accept first that there exists a very clear need for government. We have to be careful because many believers can argue themselves into promoting anarchy.

Government is necessary, but not all governance is good, right or proper. Is it wrong that there are govt subsidies? I can quickly argue that such is wrong, but doesn't a nation have an interest in promoting policies and practices which go toward establishing a steady supply of food? So, we must take care to not assign the wrong motives to instances of good public policy having what we perceive to be as bad programs.

I have come to believe that most forms of government can be good or bad depending upon who is doing the governing. And while legislation and programs can exist in ways which confuse the population as to God, his sovereignty and activity, when God's patience has expired, nothing created by man will impede him. And in such instances if man does not recognize the sovereign Lord in action, it is due to man's hard heart and fallen nature.

While all these are true, one can leave room for excuse in most forms of govt history has shown us. I do not think we in the US, or even in all that is considered the Western World, can have much excuse for promoting or accepting legislation and policies which are contrary to Christ and His will as we have fewer impediments to holding our governors accountable.

I have not had the pleasure R-C to meet you yet, so I am glad you joined the forum

May I be allowed to ask, what ethics do you believe should exist for government to "govern those under its authority to the exclusion of others?"

In short what constitutes an "ethical government," and what limits or authority should be applied to it in order for that government to be and remain "moral?"
 
Wow, how much bandwidth do we have? This could be a long one.

First, let's start with the individual. A collection of self governed, self disciplined individuals is required for the success of any large undertaking. In order for this to be possible, there must be a few foundational rights which, collectively permit individuals to have something of self to govern. Such rights must be founded upon a rather unqualified belief that individuals, generally, have the ability, desire and duty to govern themselves. This takes us quickly to a set of shared beliefs as to the nature of man. The expression of this will be pretty directly linked to how man has come into existence and it is here that morality and ethics are established.

So, we have, as the ideal, a group of people with shared beliefs that they have come into existence in a manner which sees them with both the ability and duty to govern themselves, but seeking to accomplish something greater than themselves. Where this comes to be, the individuals will agree to release some of their individual freedom I order that the objectives identified can be realized. This, of course, sees us now in some form of democracy with limited collective governance.

A central government, founded by self governed individuals can do well whatever might be the tasks given to it so long as the people who gave it authority consent to its tasks and methods for achieving them as well as their support for the entity. So, there must be individuals, with the ability, desire and duty to govern self who have identified certain tasks which cannot be realized without conferring upon a central body some of the right to govern and the central body must be limited in authority to that which it has been granted authority. This gets us to a constitutional democracy. If large enough, the practical implications may see representative forms of governance a necessity. This, is what I think is the ideal. However, history gives us few chances for such to be realized in the order I have set out. The commentary about our nation which must follow would not be complimentary in that we have had this, but abdicated much of our right to self governance. As to other nations and peoples, history gave them the remnants of the strong man. The people under the strong man have pulled much authority from him and he has realized an inability to maintain any legitimacy without releasing authority, but such people have generally failed to embrace the concept of coming into existence in a manner which sees them, individually, capable of governing themselves.

As this is a Christian forum, we can easily assert that God created us with the ability and duty to govern ourselves, this being hampered by our sinful nature. We can see in the story of Israel several things which touch upon governance. First, there must be vision and purpose. Second, individuals have freedom and responsibility, both do which should be encouraged and renewed. Third, we, collectively, can't discipline ourselves, maintain our vision or submit properly to God. Fourth, and this is the one of greatest curiosity, we want an earthly King, a strongman who will make everything okay. I think these things were clearly demonstrated by the ancient Jews and is being proven, through the American experience, to be pretty universal.

I don't know if it can be said that I answered your question directly, but I do hope you will have found within that I attempted to respond to that which was asked.
 
Wow, how much bandwidth do we have? This could be a long one.

First, let's start with the individual. A collection of self governed, self disciplined individuals is required for the success of any large undertaking. In order for this to be possible, there must be a few foundational rights which, collectively permit individuals to have something of self to govern. Such rights must be founded upon a rather unqualified belief that individuals, generally, have the ability, desire and duty to govern themselves. This takes us quickly to a set of shared beliefs as to the nature of man. The expression of this will be pretty directly linked to how man has come into existence and it is here that morality and ethics are established.

So, we have, as the ideal, a group of people with shared beliefs that they have come into existence in a manner which sees them with both the ability and duty to govern themselves, but seeking to accomplish something greater than themselves. Where this comes to be, the individuals will agree to release some of their individual freedom I order that the objectives identified can be realized. This, of course, sees us now in some form of democracy with limited collective governance.

A central government, founded by self governed individuals can do well whatever might be the tasks given to it so long as the people who gave it authority consent to its tasks and methods for achieving them as well as their support for the entity. So, there must be individuals, with the ability, desire and duty to govern self who have identified certain tasks which cannot be realized without conferring upon a central body some of the right to govern and the central body must be limited in authority to that which it has been granted authority. This gets us to a constitutional democracy. If large enough, the practical implications may see representative forms of governance a necessity. This, is what I think is the ideal. However, history gives us few chances for such to be realized in the order I have set out. The commentary about our nation which must follow would not be complimentary in that we have had this, but abdicated much of our right to self governance. As to other nations and peoples, history gave them the remnants of the strong man. The people under the strong man have pulled much authority from him and he has realized an inability to maintain any legitimacy without releasing authority, but such people have generally failed to embrace the concept of coming into existence in a manner which sees them, individually, capable of governing themselves.

As this is a Christian forum, we can easily assert that God created us with the ability and duty to govern ourselves, this being hampered by our sinful nature. We can see in the story of Israel several things which touch upon governance. First, there must be vision and purpose. Second, individuals have freedom and responsibility, both do which should be encouraged and renewed. Third, we, collectively, can't discipline ourselves, maintain our vision or submit properly to God. Fourth, and this is the one of greatest curiosity, we want an earthly King, a strongman who will make everything okay. I think these things were clearly demonstrated by the ancient Jews and is being proven, through the American experience, to be pretty universal.

I don't know if it can be said that I answered your question directly, but I do hope you will have found within that I attempted to respond to that which was asked.

So then, by your comment of.............."As this is a Christian forum, we can easily assert that God created us with the ability and duty to govern ourselves, this being hampered by our sinful nature"....
wouldn't you say that forms of govt. are in place to control chaos even on this web site????
 
Wow, how much bandwidth do we have? This could be a long one.

First, let's start with the individual. A collection of self governed, self disciplined individuals is required for the success of any large undertaking. In order for this to be possible, there must be a few foundational rights which, collectively permit individuals to have something of self to govern. Such rights must be founded upon a rather unqualified belief that individuals, generally, have the ability, desire and duty to govern themselves. This takes us quickly to a set of shared beliefs as to the nature of man. The expression of this will be pretty directly linked to how man has come into existence and it is here that morality and ethics are established.

It is a complex question indeed so please forgive me for asking for a thesis, and also know that I am grateful for your contribution. Yet if you will suffer more questions our exchanges can resolve to more wisdom coming from both sides.

When you say “self governed, self disciplined individuals is required for the success of any large undertaking,” does that mean “every person” must provide consent? An example would be the “Mayflower Compact”, were every person on board who traversed to relocate “gave their consent” to the compact before going to land.

Also what “foundational rights” should be in place?” You also mention “natural man,” are you referring to “nature of man” as man being in the State of Nature from creation, or simply pointing to “man's” general inclination to sin?

So, we have, as the ideal, a group of people with shared beliefs that they have come into existence in a manner which sees them with both the ability and duty to govern themselves, but seeking to accomplish something greater than themselves. Where this comes to be, the individuals will agree to release some of their individual freedom I order that the objectives identified can be realized. This, of course, sees us now in some form of democracy with limited collective governance.

When you say, “the individuals will agree to release some of their individual freedom I order that the objectives identified can be realized,” how does this “release translate into real world where government or organized political means will materialize. In short, how does a release happen?

Lets say 100 people want to start a government on a large island, and 99 are in agreement to “release some of their individual freedom," to build a social contract or constitution, but the one does not consent. Is it “moral” to force the one person to agree with the social contract or leave him be?

If force is then used upon the one, then use scripture to justify the force “morally.”

A central government, founded by self governed individuals can do well whatever might be the tasks given to it so long as the people who gave it authority consent to its tasks and methods for achieving them as well as their support for the entity. So, there must be individuals, with the ability, desire and duty to govern self who have identified certain tasks which cannot be realized without conferring upon a central body some of the right to govern and the central body must be limited in authority to that which it has been granted authority. This gets us to a constitutional democracy. If large enough, the practical implications may see representative forms of governance a necessity. This, is what I think is the ideal. However, history gives us few chances for such to be realized in the order I have set out. The commentary about our nation which must follow would not be complimentary in that we have had this, but abdicated much of our right to self governance. As to other nations and peoples, history gave them the remnants of the strong man. The people under the strong man have pulled much authority from him and he has realized an inability to maintain any legitimacy without releasing authority, but such people have generally failed to embrace the concept of coming into existence in a manner which sees them, individually, capable of governing themselves.

When you say, “A central government, founded by self governed individuals can do well whatever might be the tasks given to it so long as the people who gave it authority consent to its tasks and methods for achieving them as well as their support for the entity,” does that mean every person must give their consent, or do you believe that referendums or representation trumps every persons consent?

As this is a Christian forum, we can easily assert that God created us with the ability and duty to govern ourselves, this being hampered by our sinful nature. We can see in the story of Israel several things which touch upon governance. First, there must be vision and purpose. Second, individuals have freedom and responsibility, both do which should be encouraged and renewed. Third, we, collectively, can't discipline ourselves, maintain our vision or submit properly to God. Fourth, and this is the one of greatest curiosity, we want an earthly King, a strongman who will make everything okay. I think these things were clearly demonstrated by the ancient Jews and is being proven, through the American experience, to be pretty universal.

When you say, “we can easily assert that God created us with the ability and duty to govern ourselves,” I must agree with you wholeheartedly.

I don't know if it can be said that I answered your question directly, but I do hope you will have found within that I attempted to respond to that which was asked.

It was incredibly kind for you offer so much input. I also enjoy civics as well.

Just as a point of reference to know my context, I am a Classical Liberal. I do believe in “ethical government” or a “strictly liberal State.” I believe all forms of despotism to be immoral.
 
Actually, I believe our current president is God's choice for America. He is an instrument of judgment on our nation for walking away from God. There are multiple scriptures declaring that God himself puts governors, judges and kings in place.
 
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