The MOST Important Bible Doctrine

2404 said:
You know my position on the trinity so I'll leave that alone. I was encouraged to read your post on the 'let us create'.
Of course God uses his creation as agents in what he is doing, for He didn't create them for nothing... He uses man to spread the gospel and do His work. In the garden He commissioned Adam to do. As I have stated, God established laws to frame creation and of course Lucifer being the great being he was must have been very familiar with the working of these laws (as science is working in that direction) as so as man is an agent on earth so must the heavenly host (spiritual beings) been an agent in the development of our (lower order) natural realm. For how could Lucifer have thought that he had 'better idea' for creation if he would have been an inactive agent? So when God said 'let us' he was making reference to His act of creation in a 'corporate' sence.
TrevorL I believe we are on the same page.
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You said...........
"For how could Lucifer have thought that he had 'better idea' for creation if he would have been an inactive agent? "

Are you suggesting that Lucifer had a role to play in Creation???
 
TrevorL said:
Greetings Big Moose,

I do not accept this as the explanation of our creation in the image and after the likeness of God.

Blood does not wipe out sin. Jesus and his sacrifice is not a substitution. He is our representative and our sins are forgiven.

Kind regards
Trevor
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You said.............
"Blood does not wipe out sin."

Think my brother on a few things..........
1st John 1:7..........
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

Hebrews 9:22............
"Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."

Matthew 26:28...........
"For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
You then stated that..............
"Jesus and his sacrifice is not a substitution."

I have to disagree as Jesus Christ died in our place when He was crucified on the cross. We deserved to be the ones placed on that cross to die because we are the ones who live sinful lives. But Christ took the punishment on Himself in our place—He substituted Himself for us and took what we rightly deserved.

2 Corinthians 5:21.............
“God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God”.

YES..........He is our representee/Advocate and He stands between God and us so that when God looks at us He sees the Lord Jesus Christ and HIS blood on us makes us acceptable to God.
 
TrevorL said:
Greetings Big Moose,

I do not accept this as the explanation of our creation in the image and after the likeness of God.

Blood does not wipe out sin. Jesus and his sacrifice is not a substitution. He is our representative and our sins are forgiven.

Kind regards
Trevor
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On what basis are our sins forgiven?

Hebrews 9:22
And by the law almost all things are purged with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Hebrews 9:22
Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
 
Major said:
You said...........
"For how could Lucifer have thought that he had 'better idea' for creation if he would have been an inactive agent? "

Are you suggesting that Lucifer had a role to play in Creation???
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Do you have a role to play in spreading the gospel of salvation?
Only God can save but he uses you as a vehicle.
 
2404 said:
Do you have a role to play in spreading the gospel of salvation?
Only God can save but he uses you as a vehicle.
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Yes, we all do as was commanded to us by Christ.

However......that has nothing to do with the question I asked you.

It seems to me that you are saying Lucifer had a part in Creation and now you deflected the answer. I am not trying to argue, just clarify.
 
trinity is there but if rejected where does this leave the apostolic. the dont believe in the trinity ..so does one say they are Lost ?
 
forgiven61 said:
trinity is there but if rejected where does this leave the apostolic. the dont believe in the trinity ..so does one say they are Lost ?
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One common element among cults like JW, Christian Science, and Mormonism is the denial of the Trinity. Where does that place all the Oneness groups on the spectrum, closer to orthodoxy or closer to the cults?
 
BibleLover said:
Where does that place all the Oneness groups on the spectrum, closer to orthodoxy or closer to the cults?
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we certainly are not the judge of salvation who is who is not ! we have a active apostolic here they do fund raisers out the nose.. seems to be growing in numbers . my biggest objection is baptism into salvation in Jesus name . no amount of water ever saved along with tongues evidence your saved and have the Holy Ghost .
 
BibleLover said:
One common element among cults like JW, Christian Science, and Mormonism is the denial of the Trinity. Where does that place all the Oneness groups on the spectrum, closer to orthodoxy or closer to the cults?
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Correct and I agree!

Brother, the Apostolic, Oneness group are as close to a Cult as ones nose is to their face.
 
crossnote said:
On what basis are our sins forgiven?

Hebrews 9:22
And by the law almost all things are purged with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Hebrews 9:22
Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
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Seems simple dosent it??
 
Major said:
You said...........
"For how could Lucifer have thought that he had 'better idea' for creation if he would have been an inactive agent? "

Are you suggesting that Lucifer had a role to play in Creation???
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Major I'm sure you understand the analogy so I'll let it rest.
 
2404 said:
Major I'm sure you understand the analogy so I'll let it rest.
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I am sorry brother but I do not have any idea. You made the statement of.....
"""For how could Lucifer have thought that he had 'better idea' for creation if he would have been an inactive agent? "

I thought you just misspoke and I did not understand what you said. " if he would have been an inactive agent? " suggest that he was an ACTIVE agent and I just wanted to clarify!
 
BibleLover said:
I wonder where they found living apostles since to be an apostle one had to sit under the face-to-face personal instruction of Jesus.
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Agreed. There is NO such thing as Apostolic believers or Apostolic Succession! We believe in the Lord Jesus as told to us by the Apostles.

The Apostles told the gospel, wrote the gospel but were never ever said to be a denomination of Christianity.

The real question then becomes, can a person be save and deny the Trinity?????

We are saved by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His death, burial and resurrection, not by accepting doctrine. We learn doctrine!
However, I will say that you CAN NOT read the Bible, understand doctrine & do the study, and say you are a Christian and DENY the Trinity!
 
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TrevorL said:
Greetings 2404, Greetings again Major, and Greetings forgiven61, crossnote,

In general, yes, but I believe that the serpent was a serpent not Lucifer.





Blood of itself has no value in this regard, and even the blood of Jesus was ordinary human blood, and if sprinkled by accident on a few at the foot of the cross, this would have had no healing effect. The blood of Jesus is a figurative concept based upon the fact thar he died and his blood was poured out. The figure of blood has a history associated with the four major Sacrifices, the Sin, Trespass, Burnt and Peace Offering and also the Passover Lamb and the blood than was sprinkled or painted on the door of the household. Some of the language and ideas today divorce "the blood of Christ" from this basis, but the blood of Christ is a summary of the whole concept of the Atoning Work achieved by Christ. There are other terms used, as Jesus gave his body in sacrifice, he poured out his soul unto death, and he gave himself. I do not deny that the blood of Jesus is a valid summary of ALL of this, and the blood of Jesus is the confirmation of the New Covenant.

I still disagree with the concept of substitution. Our punishment for sin is suffering and death, and we still suffer and die. Jesus as the sinless man suffered and died, yet because he had done no sin and because of the Father's love and fellowship with His Beloved Son, God raised him from the dead and thus opened the way for salvation of all others that affectionately believe in Christ and identify with his death and resurrection in baptism will be saved and have their sins forgiven.

Kind regards
Trevor
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to far out for me all you gave is your opinion
 
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