The body of truth and the Spirit of truth.

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by geralduk, Oct 16, 2015.

  1. If a man has but the Word of God but not the Spirit of God ,he dries up .
    If a man has the Spirit of God but not the Word of God he blows up .
    But if a man has the Word of God and the Spirit of God he grows up.

    Some churches only emphasise the Word of God .
    Others but the Spirit of God .
    Those who emphasise only the Word of God see the errors and the excesses of those who emphasise only the Spirit of God reject often the truths about the Spirit of God .
    Those who emphasise the Spirit of God and see the dryness of those who who emphasise only see the Word of God often reject sound doctrine and good order.

    This posts objective is to show that you need both the Word or BODY of truth ;the scriptures and the Spirit of God who is the Spirit of truth. and while in Gods thinking they are indivisible.
    That thinking is not so much thought in mans mind or understanding .

    As with "all sound doctrine " it has its root or first mention in the book of beginnings the book of Genesis .
    Those who dismiss or mix truth and error and do not believe Gods account of the beginning will find what follows hard to understand .Or accept.

    But I will state it anyway. For it needs to be said and the truth propagated .
    All quotes are from the KJV

    Genesis 3:8
    "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the cool of the day;and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden"

    "and they heard the voice of the Lord God WALKING ..........."
    How can a voice walk? is or was for me anyway a question that one day arose in my thinking as I read this passage . One of the reasons I love God is that he provokes thought and demands we think .
    I did not say to myself this passage is absurd and it therefore must be a wrong translation and I must (or another) change it to suit my thinking . But I believed the Word of God .But did not understand it .
    After much prayerful thought I still did not arrive at any answer . So I went back a step.
    What then is a voice? Every living thing has a voice of one sort or another . A lions voice is its roar a cats a meow for instance .
    But they are animals and all be it their voices can be heard and know from what they come .
    Here in this passage we are talking about the "voice of the Lord God"
    Now any word search of the "Voice of the Lord" even of the word 'voice' would be profitable to anybody willing to study the matter .
    But when it all boils down to it a voice is a Word without a body.
    When a man speaks his voice is heard because he uses his breath or life through his vocal chords.Though he may not actually say anything .
    But no mans words are heard or understood unless he gives his breath and life to his words .

    If it is thought that you cannot use this as an example or the make up of man to explain something of the nature of God .
    Then we need to remember that it is written "man shall not live by bread alone but by every WORD that goeth forth out of His MOUTH"
    and he who said "He who made the ear cannot he not hear and He who made the eye cannot He see?" Must also say He who made the mouth cannot he not speak?
    it is idols that have ears that hear not , eyes that speak not and mouths that speak not and feet that do not .
    But our God ;my God is the living God who created man in His image .
    Therefore to use the way a mans speaks to enlighten us in the things of God neither twists scripture or goes beyond what the scriptures teach.
    For God uses the physical attibutes of men ;which is the natural or of earth to teach about the spiritual or of heaven.
    A VOICE then is a word then without a body.

    Then from that line we have a line added upon it .

    Hebrews 10 : 5
    Where for when he cometh into the world, he saith ;sacrifice and offering though wouldst not; but a body hast thou prepared me "
    In other words a body to suffer in.
    It is interesting to note that the great fish that swallowed Jonah was a prepared fish a prepared body . "Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow Jonah and Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights"
    This also was the only sign the Lord gave to an unbelieving generation.

    Not only had Jesus a body to suffer in . he also has a body to be glorified in.
    Jesus is the Word of God. That came forth from the father .
    "My Word that goeth forth out of my mouth shall not return unto me void ,but shall accomplish that where unto I SENT it"
    The voice of the Lord God that walked in the cool of the day ,in the garden of Eden was the same voice of the Lord God that walked in the cool of the evening in the garden of Gethsemane .
    He then is the Spirit of truth and the body of truth .
    ".........I am the truth ......... " said Jesus .
    The Word made flesh .

    and "man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God "

    in Christ
    Elizabeth Lambino likes this.
  2. I think you forgot one, The "Father". Without him we are all in deep trouble as he is the one who gives "voice" to both the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.
    Jesus only speaks what he hears the Father say, and the Holy Spirit does not speak on his own, but only what he hears. When the Father speaks, then the Word speaks, and then the Holy Spirit speaks. Without that relationship with God the Father we will not know anything.
    Elizabeth Lambino likes this.
  3. #3 geralduk, Oct 16, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2015
    No truth can be exhausted in one sitting even as no one can eat a loaf of bread with one mouthful.
    Words being what they are can therefore be only said one word at a time. But it is all the words that needs to be said to understand perfectly what is being expressed.
    I did say that the foundations or root of the truth that there is a Spirit of truth and a body of truth STARTS in Genesis ,Thus it is line upon line precept upon precept that we build as it were the house . or argument .
    But to reply to your paticular point and to show I have not ir indeed do not omit the Father my reply to you would have to be .......

    " Have I been with you so long ........that you do not know me?" "Know ye not that ................................................"

    In Christ
  4. As with any other wonderful truths of scripture ,it is very hard to know where to go next .
    But let me say again that if a man is neither heard or understood unless he gives his breath or life to His words . How much less is God heard or understood unless his Word is made alive or quickened by the Spirit of God .
    Jesus said I am the truth .
    His BODY was crucified and buried ,
    He spoke of himself as being the "seed which is the Word of God" or "unless a seed fall into the g round and die it abideth alone"
    The Body that was then sown was also then quickened by the Spirit of God .
    "The letter killeth ..........." Did not God condemn sin in the flesh"?
    ".....But the Spirit giveth life" He that hath this seed in him I will raise up on the last day .
    Joseph who was an archetype of the Lord , for there was so many aspects of his life that foreshadowed the life of Christ.
    For instance he was favoured above all his brethren by the father .
    He was rejected by his brethren . For 30 pieces of silver . He was already married to a gentile bride when he revealed himself to his brethren. and others.
    But he was as ONE who went into Egypt as one sown . But many came out of Egypt after .
    But if it does (the seed die) it bringeth forth much fruit"

    Jesus said" the Father is greater than I " John 13: 16 Verily verily I say unto you, the servant is not greater than his lord,neither he that is sent greater than he who sent him"
    Who then is the greater? The word that is spoken ? Or he that spake the word?
    We should not be upset or indeed shaken when aggressive argumentative Muslims challenge you when they say if Jesus is God why does he say God is greater ? The question is riddled with a lack of understanding to start with . But if you are given the liberty consider that answer.
    For the seed is not greater than the tree from which it sprung as an acorn is not greater than the oak .
    Yet the one proceeds from the other.
    and every seed " bringeth forth fruit after its own kind"
    We do not then become God .
    But as THE Son the only begotten Son who inherits all things from the father was made conformable to the Father .
    We who are begotten again by the father through Jesus Christ are made conformable to the SON and by nature as of all men were "children of disobedience " to children of God.
    Born not of corruptable seed which is of the first Adam. But of "incorruptable seed which is the Word of God " The last Adam.
    Thus did Jesus teach it that "we MUST ............................." an imperative , and essential thing most important "we MUST be BORNagain"
    By "the water (which is the Word of God ) and the Spirit"
    So once again we have the WORD or the body of truth and the Spirit of truth .

    In Christ
  5. #5 Euphemia, Oct 16, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2015
    Genesis 3:8 (ESV)
    And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

    God, in His pre-incarnate self, was able to walk around the garden, just like Adam and Eve, who were created to be just like Himself. Yes, He spoke. He also walked. They had perfect fellowship one with another, in the very real sense of the word.
    Major likes this.
  6. #6 geralduk, Oct 19, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
    Sola Scriptura.
    Scripture alone .
    Is indeed the foundation and the only foundation for sound doctrine and of our faith in God.
    But this truth should be put in context of what is called the reformation.
    Where the Roman church was declaring that their traditions or long held practices were the final authority and as such all men should submit to Romes (asserted) authority.
    Now if there is any dispute between men on nay matter ,then men always go to what is written.
    if then you say you are christian then any dispute you go to the Bible .if a Muslim the Koran , if a land dispute then the land registary records office.
    The Bible itself says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is good for reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness....."
    Before the reformation was the Bible was in the hands of the Roman church and had been 'translated into Latin. But due to the lack of printing Bibles were comparitivly rare even if anybody could read it . Accept priests and those that the 'church ' taught in universities etc.
    The reason why it was called the dark ages was there was no spiritual light . It is "the entrance of thy Word that giveth light"
    What little or any scripture was preached or taught was mixed so much with mans traditions and doctrinal errors it "made the Word of God of none effect"
    You can breed a horse with a donkey and you will get a mule . But there is no life in the mule and it will not reproduce .
    If you mix truth with error you will indeed get some thing but it has no life in it and cannot multiply.
    When the Bible was translated first into some European langauges but finally and accurately into English primarily William Tyndale and in the providence of God at the same time as printing became widely available . Men got hold of the Bible in their own langauge .
    They not only began to read it but by the grace of God understand it as well. They found that what was taught in the Bible and what was taught by the Roman church had so many contradictions they began to question those who had so dominated the minds of men for so long .
    Instead of beign corrected ,or reproved by scripture Rome reacted violently and burnt tat the stake both Tyndale and anybody else who challenged their asserted authority and their 'truths'
    The term Sola scripture was then a response to Romes vanity and assertions that her traditions were the only authority.
    It should be understood and can be found out that those Reformers used only the scripture and biblical argument to prove the case both of the errors of Rome as also the truth of scripture .
    Now we have taken the scripture alone out of context and assert that the scriptures alone are all that is needed to understand the scriptures.
    Now I am NOT saying that w e can go beyond what the scriptures say .
    I also say that you cannot prove a doctrine by one scripture and you must search all of scripture that applies to the matter to get its true meaning and use ,
    But I DO say that the letter alone kills but the Spirit giveth life .
    We are now in a reverse reformation .Where people are saying that because they say they can read the original text and langauge only they truly understand the scriptures .
    Thus were as before the reformation it was asserted that only the priests and Rome could either preach and or understand the scriptures. For they were the only ones qualified to do so .
    So now there is a creeping idea first now by works but soon to be a doctrine .That the only ones who are 'qualified' to preech or understand the scriptures are those who say they alone who understand the original langauge are able to eb so .
    It is a false authority based soley on the intellectual ability on the one hand and intellectual pride on the other .
    Taking the final authority of scripture and converting it to mean an understanding of the original langauge as their authority.
    But in answer to that false idea . Is to look at the life of Saul of Tarsus . Who had Hebrew as his mother tounge .
    Now if Hebrew is not your mother tounge and you needs must learn it as a second langauge . Your comprehension of the language is 'limited' and it will or can take a number of years to get the same comprehension of the langauge as one to whom it is their mother tounge.
    Yet did Saul of Tarsus with all his knowledge of the scriptures and of Hebrew understand the scriptures?
    No. He so did not understand the scriptures he persecuted the church and agreed with Stephens death "and thought it was Gods will"
    and what of the Pharasees etc who also knew Hebrews as their mother tounge yet so did not understand the scriptures persecuted the Lord and agreed to His death.
    Then there are the Jews themselves who still do not understand the scriptures as they should be understood concerning the Lord.
    Did not Jesus say "Ye boast in the scriptures but know not Him of whom they spake"
    So whether you read the scriptures in Hebrew ,Greek , Chinese or English . It is not enough .The things of God can only be known by the Spirit of God .
    and in the same measure that the Spirit of God was needed to inspire men so to write .
    Then in the same measure the Spirit of God is needed to understood what was inspired to be written.
    Not only to "rightly divide the Word of God" But also to know when to start and when to stop.

    In Christ
  7. When to stop.

    Luke 4:21 "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord"

    if we look at the verse of scripture from whence those words are spoken from is Isiah 61 and where the Lord stopped was not where the verse stopped verse 2 "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God ;............"
    From a purely rigid and traditional use of scripture we must use all of the verse . Yet the Lord stopped at "to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord. Why? Because we still live in the "acceptable year" and we are not in the "day of venegeance of our God"
    Today is the day of salvation . The promise is for today . and it is still acceptable to God for men to be saved and he will receive any and all who will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ or "on Him whom God has sent "
    But there is coming a day when the day of vengeance has come and men will cry unto God but the heavens will be as brass.
    In Noahs day his generation had 120 years when it would have been acceptable . But the day came when it was God who closed the door of the ark and the time had passed for men to be saved.
    God will not always strive with men .
    God is patient long suffering ,not willing that any should perish but that all should come to a knowledge of the truth "
    His long suffering was while the ark was being built .
    Noah preached righteousness for 120 years and so condemned the world . For God was then justified in his judgment.
    The Lord preached the acceptable year . Not the day of vengeance .
    It was the Holy Spirit that led him to stop where he did . For what is written relates to what is in the mind of God .
    The story of the woman caught "in the very act" of adultery seems to start in verse 1 of the gospel of John .A too rigid use of chapter and verse will miss the fact that the story actually starts in the last verses of chapter 7.
    When everybody went to their own homes but the Lord went up the mountain to pray.
    He was ready then to face the coming day and all the challenges of it .
    So when faced with some religionists who took the letter and hoped to be justified by it and to condemn the Lord or ensnare him they found there was more to the Word of God than they every had conceived .
    and they who sought to be justified by the law .He answered according to the law . and as Romans says the law is not there to make men perfect but to convict of sin. Thus they who sought to be justified by the law were answered by the law and each man being convicted by the Spirit according to the law left.
    The woman who sought or desired mercy repented and found it and accepted Jesus as her Lord .
    If we read the scriptures purely on the grounds of the letter we will err . Whether it is in Hebrew Greek or English.
    If we do not allow ourselves to be led by Him who leads us into all truth , we will not arrive at or come to a knowledge of the truth but rather will jump to our own conclusions.

    The Lord stopped where he did because the Word and the Spirit and the day required it .

    In Christ
  8. Amen to this.
  9. 'And they heard the voice of the LORD God
    walking in the garden in the cool of the day:
    and Adam and his wife hid themselves
    from the presence of the LORD God
    amongst the trees of the garden. '

    (Gen 3:8)

    Hello @geralduk,

    Looking up Genesis 3:8, in a book I have on figures of speech used in Scripture, I found that there is a figure of speech here called 'pleonasm' or 'redundancy' where more words are seemingly used than the grammar requires, such as with the word 'voice' in this verse. I say, 'seemingly', because these words are not really superfluous when used by the Holy Spirit, nor are they idle words, or have no use. They are necessary to fill up the sense, which without them would be incomplete and imperfect. It is used to set forth the subject more fully by repeating it in other, sometimes opposite, terms. To emphasise it.

    * In this verse, it is the sound, or the presence of Jehovah Elohim, that is being emphasised.

    Nothing more should be read into this than that.
    In Christ Jesus
  10. #10 Complete, Oct 20, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
    'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
    because He hath anointed me
    - to preach the gospel to the poor;
    - He hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,
    - to preach deliverance to the captives,
    - and recovering of sight to the blind,
    - to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    - To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
    And He closed the book,
    and He gave it again to the minister,
    and sat down.
    And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him.
    And He began to say unto them,

    "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

    Praise God!

    The Lord divided the Word aright in closing the book at that place: for He could not have said, 'This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears', had He continued with the words of Isaiah which followed, for the reasons which @geralduk has given.

    * A day will come when He will be seen to open a book again (Rev. 5)

    'And He came and took the book
    out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the throne.

    And when He had taken the book,
    the four beasts and four and twenty elders
    fell down before the Lamb,
    having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours,
    which are the prayers of saints.
    And they sung a new song, saying,
    "Thou art worthy to take the book,
    and to open the seals thereof:
    for Thou wast slain,
    and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood
    out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; ... '

    (verses 6-9)

    Praise His Name!

    In Christ Jesus
  11. I have never known God to use a figure of speech .
    Or has to "fill up" a sentence with words . I have how ever found that God means what he says and says what he means.
    There is therefore far more profit in taking scripture as you find it .Than to simply explain it all away .
    It is beyond dispute that God has a voice .
    I will not dispute with you that his VOICE was heard.
    Sin makes cowards of us all ,someone once said. and when the Word of God is heard men hide themselves . Then as now.
    For men are afraid of God fro the Holy Spirit has come to convict men of sin of righteosuness and of judgment .
    I will not dispute with you that they heard the voice of the Lord .
    But it is not written the heard the Lord God walking in the cool of the evening .
    It is not written that they heard his presence ;say as if a person was walkign through bushes or past leaves.
    It is written however they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the cool of the day.
    I will stand then by what I have said and suggest that there are depths to the Word of God you may as yet not see.

    in Christ
    Angela333 likes this.
  12. #12 CCW95A, Oct 20, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2015
    Does God have a body? The Lord God has always had a body in which he lives. When God sends his Word he is actually sending himself, because contained within every Word of God dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. God's Word is his body, and his Word is Spirit, and it is life.

    Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
  13. Hello @geralduk,

    The Word of God is riddled with figures of speech, and the Holy Spirit uses them wonderfully to stop us in our tracks and cause us to consider what He has said.

    The Word of God is made up of words, and their arrangement and meaning are not without purpose. All language is governed by the laws of grammar, the Holy Spirit uses them to His advantage.

    In Christ Jesus
  14. ' ... And take the helmet of salvation,
    and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: ... '


    'For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,
    piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow,
    and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.'


    ' ... That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, ... '
    (Eph 5:26)

    Praise God!
  15. The Word of God has "eyes" and it sees all things, for the Word is God.

    Heb 4:13.. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
  16. It is not I who said the Voice walked in the cool of the day.
    Nor was it I who said " A body hast thou prepared for me"
    and as far as I am aware unless you can prove otherwise from the scripture .That the body of our Lord Jesus Christ was formed in thew womb of Mary the mother of his flesh .
    it was THAT body that he suffered in and died.
    It was also THAT body that rose up again from the dead .
    But nwo no longer flesh and blood but "flesh and bone"
    and it is THAT body as it were that sitteth on the right hand of ther majesty on high.
    What body then did he have BEFORE creation? and before that body prepared for him?
    is not God SPIRIT?
    You say Gods Word is his body?

    What then did I say? A voice is a word without a body.
    No word is heard or understood simply by the VOICE.
    As no mans words is heard or understood unless he gives his breath or life to his words.
    Did not the Lord say " Only the father has life in Himself "?
    and he has given also to the SON who has life in himself.
    He that recieves the SON then has life and he who has not the Son has not even seen life"
    What I did say however was that it was the Lord who walked in the cool of the evening . But rather it was the Lord God .
    For a pointer as to what Im tryign to say.
    "The first Adam was the foreshadow of him who was to come"
    Therefore you cannot say God had a 'body ' for God is Spirit .
    it was in the WORD made flesh that he dwelt in bodilly .
    But I would say that the eternal resting place of the Spirit of God is the Word of God.
    I will go no further in that regard.untill beter instructed if needs must .

    in Christ
  17. There are two things that must be understood .

    "He who made the eye can he not see?"
    There is now a man who sitteth in His fathers throne who has eyes from whom nothing is hid.
    They were so before he clothed himself with the seed of Abraham .
    and they were so before the foundations of the earth.
    I dont think you cannot say (without clarification) the Word of God has eyes .
    For it is applied both to the scriptures as also to the Lord the Word made flesh.
    The living Word is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the hearts .Even as the Lord is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    "For the entrance of thy word giveth light "
    Light reveals that which is hidden . and so as we allow ourselves to be exposed to the Word of God it reveals things about ourselves .

    In Christ
  18. Chris :

    I knew when I put that down Id be in trouble . For when I said God does not have figures of speeh ot was in the context which you put it in as a sort of 'filler'
    In THAT regard I have never know God or the scriptures to have' fillers '
    Yet your argument as to arrangement and meaning you do not apply to this passage simply because at first glance it is absurd or none sense .
    For how does a voice walk.?

    Your aproach and mine to scripture is then quite different .
    and while I will not boast that I have always believed what it said . I have always found that when I do not believe what the scriptures say .I am always wrong!
    So you will have to forgive me when I say I cannot accept your explination. For ti denies exactly what it says .

    I take it exactly what it says and seek to understand what it says .
    and while my english comprehension is good enough to understand the English. My spiritual comprehension often needs more work . But I enjoy such questions . or scripture that provokes such questions or thought.
    Nor realy should I expect anything less when Gods thoughts are higher than my thoughts .
    You play better chess by playing better players .
    Not that i count it a game .
    But when Moses saw a bush burning ( a common sight ) it was the fact that it was not consumed that caught his atention and drew him aside from his normal pursuits (way of thinking?)
    and when God saw him turn aside eh spoke to him/.
    You speak of grammer and the rest . I often find in the KJV an odd sort fo grammer that does not always follow the laws of 'english ' .But not so much out of order that it cannot be understood .
    Some may dismiss that and the KJV as not worthy then of consideration.
    Not me .
    For again God does not conform to mans laws but we are supposed to conform to God.

    In Christ
  19. Hello Chris,
    I agree totally with you and I just wanted to expound a little on what you have said.
    Amen and when you stop and think that God's most Holy Word has benn entrusted to us - well for me it just leaves me in awe to say the least.

    Now then one Must also Remember that God's word is full of truth and is to be discerned by the spirit or through the spirt livng in us. One can gain little knowledge of Gods word through human reasoning and understanding. ( That is How God Put Forth His Word To Be )

    Many think they know Gods written word really well and in all truth have only scratched the surface - For God can and Does bring us a deeper knowledge and understanding of each scripture that is written. He will connect scriptures together that one has not ever seen in this light or even thought to join them together and one can and Should come away with a deeper revelation and understanding of God's most Holy Word.

    These forums are full of book smart folks who push their understanding as is set in stone and there is no more to it. They are easy to spot as they tend to argue much and push their ways and come against any one bringing a deeper understanding of Gods most Holy word.

    We must gaurd our Hearts and Minds in Christ concerning what we read and believe or Allow To Enter In To Our Thinking - This is very important in on line forums as well. It is and will always be Best to Always take what you read or hear back to the Base and that is always going to be the Written Word Of God.

    Have a very Blessed Week my friend
    God Bless
    Complete and Cturtle say Amen and like this.
  20. Did Jesus Christ ever appear in the Old Testament before his incarnation? What body was he in then? Did Jesus ever say that Abraham wanted to see "his day", and did see Jesus before his incarnation in this world. What body did Jesus have then? If a spirit does not have a body, then how can you see it? How about Moses? Did he see him who is invisible in the burning bush? What body did he see then? Was Jesus Christ the one Moses saw?

    Joh 8:56.. Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."

    Heb 11:27.. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible.
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