Yes. Was my answer unclear in any way?? Or is there something that is wrong with that church? Any feed back is appreciate it. If there's something you know that I'm missing please let me know.
Serve God And Not Religion!
- Thread starter vengaturreino
- Start date
I can see that this debate has very interestingly veered over the the "women in ministry" topic. As a woman and as a Christian and a person who takes the Bible seriously, I naturally have an opinion on this topic and am not afraid to share it, even though I know it will put many feminist noses out of joint...
I was brought up in a church that not only welcomed but also encouraged and nourished women pastors / priests / vicars etc. In fact, I wanted to be one myself for a while. However, God, in his infinite mercy and patience, showed me that this is not his will for women. I have read and studied the arguments and Bible passages used to support the concept of women in church leadership, but it all seems so SOPHISTICATED to me now. And when I say this I mean, like sophistry, the Greek philosophers who would twist words and arguments to support pretty much whatever they liked.
The Bible, however, is quite clear:
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." (1 Timothy 2:12)
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)
If we ignore these words and say: "Oh, this teaching is clearly cultural and not relevant to the modern church", we are falling into relativism and it's a very slippery slope. Pretty soon, any Biblical teaching that goes against modern worldly "values" will be discarded, ignored or simply forgotten.
Another thing. I started to see the wisdom behind the Biblical teaching. Perhaps in cultures that have been more influenced by feminism men will suffer to be taught by a woman. But in more traditional societies, many (or most?) men will simply not be willing to sit and listen to a woman tell him how to lead his life. Because this is what pastors do; they lead and show us how to live Christian lives. God, in his wisdom, put this teaching in the Bible very clearly because He knows human nature and wants churches to work. Woman can teach other women or children and of course spread the gospel to non-believers or seekers, but not teach men in a congregation.
What happens to churches with female pastors? They tend to fill up with women and the men drop off...
Women must be silent???? Who was the bible written by? A power hungry man who wants to supress women?? Ok seriously that's a load of crap. As for myself I would never be silent. Women should be strong and strong leaders. There's no reason why a woman should be quiet or submissive to her husband, man, whoever. Women were meant to lead and stand strong. I don't know but certain things in the bible I don't like nor agree with. That's why I don't read it. It's rediculous.
Ya know, a friend once said "if you get really angry at something someone said, it must be because you're already being convicted about it by God."
"Wives submit to your husbands"... it's still scripture like it or not. You cannot pick an choose scripture. That's how we have 41,000 denominations in the "Christian" faith. Don't be so prideful and arrogant. Be at peace and allow Him to rule in your life and you won't care what people say. Men have to answer to God, so go to God instead of ranting about the "power" of a sinful women. Just like everyone we're all damaged goods and we all answer to Someone.
Matthew 19:16-26 ..
these 4 scripture verses are connected in the message of salvation ..
1st .. there can be no other god's before me ..
(what you chase after IS your god)
Exo 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
2nd verses .. you must love God WITH ALL AND ABOVE ALL ..
(a person must seek to become the attributes of God (holy) which greed is not)
Mat 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Mat 19:18 Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS;
Mat 19:19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
note: the Matthew verses give the "good thing/obedience" needed, and the Luke verses give you the "the completeness" needed answer of the "ALL" .. Matthew instead adds it with the following verses ..
Luk 10:25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Luk 10:26 And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
Luk 10:27 And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
Luk 10:28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”
3rd verse .. "to be complete" was a reference to loving God WITH ALL AND ABOVE ALL ..
(this was a test IF the rich man loved God with his ALL or his money)
Mat 19:20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?”
(besides obedience to keeping the commandments - answer: making God 1st)
Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
4th verse .. a rich man can enter heaven IF he does NOT love his money above God ..
(it is not impossible to be a good steward of money and not be greedy, just rare)
Mat 19:23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 “Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Mat 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?”
Mat 19:26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
here is a lead I am following ..
In one of the Russian Orthodox churches close to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem there is an ancient city gate revered as "the eye of the needle".
this is interesting as that would be very close to the crucifixion place, and as such very relevant to "entering heaven" ..
Hbr 5:9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
It's not about getting angry. I'm not getting angry. I just don't agree with that, that women have to be weak and submit to a man. LOL. Sorry. I work with plenty of women who are strong and independent. They have husbands but in some cases these women are the bread winners in the family. Making more than the man. I just dont agree with suppressing people, be it men women or child. I believe in thriving and allowing people to reach their full potential, have their own voice and staying strong and independent.
You're really confused if you think that's what the scriptures are saying. It's no wonder you don't agree with it. Submission is yielding your authority to your husband, not being his servant! God brought Eve into existence from Adam's rib, not from his foot, nor his from head! It's a team effort to grow a family, but the husband is responsible in God's eyes as the head of the family, the final word. But believe and live as you see right in your own eyes.
Yea ok god said. But if you look at the work the reality is not so. Many families don't have a man present, much less him being the head of the family. So scripture might say what it says but that's not what it's like. Even Christian homes become broken.
I'm starting to question that myself. I do believe in god. But as for being a person who follows and believes in all written scripture, I have to say I'm not one.
ok thanks for your honesty. So you believe in a god but maybe not the God of the bible?
So you say that scriptures are irrelevant in today's society? Seems to be the comment of the world than a Christian. No need to comment, I won't.
No. I do believe the god of the bible. Is just the bible itself that I question. I don't question god and his power cuz I have seen him in my life more than once. He's answered my prayers and blessed me greatly. Just the bible...I don't know
Without the bible you're believing in whatever you were taught - living off what others have said instead of God's inpartation. Believing IN God is not enough, you must believe God. Huge difference.
we are saved by GRACE/MERCY .. because God didn't have to offer a way out ..
Jhn 15:15 “No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
this means one who believes is a slave (you belong to Him)
but God wants more then that ..
when you are obedient to the Master, you become more .. a friend ..
and because of your obedience, the HS then "helps you" and "teaches you" ..
Act 5:32 “And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
so our righteousness does not redeem us (because it cannot take away sin) ..
but it does qualify us for redemption ..
because by our deeds we proved ourselves obedient, and true "sons of God" by our love for God and others ..
as a slave (believer belonging to Him)
we cannot just stay as such .. God WILL test you and make you choose which you are ..
either we prove ourselves "goats" (a worthless disobedient slave/believer)
by WHAT we do ..
or we prove ourselves "sheep" (a believer who is a friend of God through obedience)
by WHAT we do ..
and this is WHY all through the NT it says "we are judged by our deeds" ..
our righteousness/obedience either entitles us or not to "God's redeeming righteousness to cover us, and impute salvation ..
yet by itself .. our righteousness cannot save us ..
It is His righteousness that GRANTS redemption, by covering us with His (not qualifies) .. He is righteous .. and in that righteousness, he rejects those who through disobedience did not seek to DO righteousness ..
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I do believe god. How could I not when I seen him in my life, and his work. Promaises he made he kept them, answered my prayers and never failed me. So I do believe god. Just some of the scripture I can't make sense out of. So if my way is the wrong way, or not the accepted way. Than be it, because regardless of if it's right or wrong my god is there for me and answers my prayers. So as long as I have him in my life I'm good.
I think the most important thing Magdalena is do you believe in Jesus Christ?
How do you know that if you don't believe the scriptures? I really am not trying to accusatory or difficult, I just wish to understand. Where do you get your information about God and His wishes?