Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by GBzone, Feb 6, 2015.
God's purpose will stand, so it is already managed.
Who else but God? If not by his power than by whose?
Exactly. So you believe God micromanages everything and everyone, ergo you do not believe people have any free will.
He does not micromanage. Everything that he has purposed to happen will happen because he is All-Powerful.
People do not have a will that is capable of acting outside of God's sovereign purpose. If any such will existed then God would not be All-Powerful, and there would be an actual chance his plan would not come to pass.
Okay, so you say that God does not micromanage, but that if anyone had a will outside of God's purpose, God would not be all-powerful. So please clarify this for me, since it appears you're saying two opposite things:
-- God does not micromanage
-- God cannot allow free will or he would not be omnipotent
This might help.,,
As the Word/Son He is the eternal God (John 1; Colossians 2, etc.), but as the man Jesus he was made a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:9)...He did not exist from eternity as Jesus but became incarnate as Jesus...
Listen, you either believe God is in control or he is not. If you argue he is not, then I suggest you think about what that means with regards to his Godhood.
Your notion of "Free-will" is a false one. There is nothing free from God's plan and purpose. I do not believe in a God of chaos and randomness, but in a God of order and purpose.
I'm trying to get you to define what you believe, that's all.
I do believe God is in control. But that control does not require micromanagement. God's sovereignty is not threatened in the slightest by the free will of man. And I could also turn your statements back on you: saying God is not allowed to grant man free will is saying that God Himself does not have free will, and that his sovereignty is so weak and fragile that any hint of freedom in his creatures is a threat to him.
You're not the judge of my concept of free will, nor are you free to accuse me of following a God of chaos. And if you don't believe we have free will, then apparently God is forcing me not to agree with you, and you're wasting your time even discussing this issue with anyone.
All I wanted you to do is think about the implications of God as a micromanager.
I believe we have wills, but they are not free from God's plan and purpose. He doesn't need to micromanage, what he has planned to happen will happen, how it is done is up to him.
Why do you insist on calling it "Free-will"? I know what a will is, but what is a "Free-will"? A will free of restriction? Do you not know that mankind is enslaved to sin? Do you not know the Holy Spirit will make us whom God has chosen to be like Christ? There is a restriction to our wills. You are just enamored by the idea God gives us power that is not under his control.
I am not "enamored" by anything, and you are not God that you should judge my motives. Remember that.
You still say two contradictory things: That God doesn't micromanage but he also (somehow) does it anyway. And now let me tell you what I actually believe free will means, instead of your assumptions.
God, in his sovereignty, has granted mankind a free will. This was demonstrated from the beginning when he granted Adam and Eve dominion over the earth, as someone already pointed out. He also filled the scriptures with injunctions to choose, and only a free will can choose. A free will is also required in order for us to be held responsible for our sins, and in order for us to truly return God's love. No less than a free love would be worthy of God. And it does no good to move the line in the sand to where God first forces a change of nature so we will inevitably return his love "willingly". There is simply no escaping the need for free will if love is to be genuine.
Think of it as the situation in a school playground. There are fences and rules, but the children are free to decide which games to play and with whom. In the same way, God sets the outer boundaries, but he does not micromanage us as if a teacher would dictate which children play what games. We are free within boundaries. And throughout the scriptures, we see that we are charged with choosing good over evil, God over self, etc. God does not predetermine individual salvation. To say otherwise makes a mockery of the entire Bible, since it is pointless to appeal to the free will of man if no such thing exists.
God has predetermined that whosoever chooses to accept Jesus will be conformed to His image. God has not predetermined who would so choose.
Ahh, that is where the problem lies. You believe Christ died for noone in particular. Christ's death actually didn't save anyone, it made salvation a posibility.
I believe everyone whom God elected will be saved. Romans 8:28-30 says it all. I'm sorry but Christ did not shed his blood in vain, he did not and can not fail.
You mean to tell me Christ can pay the eternal debt of someone's sin, even the sin of unbelief, and then that person can be sent to hell to pay for those same sins? Would Christ not be a failure?
Problem? The only problem I see here is that you don't believe I have free will but it upsets you that God has made me reject Predestination.
I believe Christ died for the whole world without exception, per 1 John 2:2.
I believe Christ's words in John 3:16.
I believe that even one drop of Christ's blood would be enough to save every soul that ever lived, because it's the quality of that blood, not the quantity, that matters.
I believe that the exhortations to choose found throughout scripture are genuinely offered to everyone without exception.
I believe that "God is not willing that any perish but that all come to repentance"., per 1 Peter 3:9.
So stop trying to tell me what I believe, and start explaining what you believe. And so far, all you've done is issue contradictions. I also challenge your grasp of salvation to mean that dying for us means forcing us to be saved. Perhaps another illustration will help you:
Jesus bought enough passports to make all human beings citizens of the kingdom of heaven. But he will not take a single soul by force. If people reject his freely offered gift, that's their problem.
Forcing someone to be saved is called saving them. Are you saying God forcing salvation is a bad thing? o_O
Who has ever said "Oh no! He saved me against my will! How dare he!"
Noone says that, we say "Glory to God for giving me salvation and saving me from my sin!"
Here is a power you do not grant God: He can change someone's will. I used to not even believe in God but now I love him, how does that work?
A lot of people don't want to be saved. You can ask them. Yes, people do say that.
It is not your place or mine to grant anything to God. Neither is it your place or mine to deny anything to God. If God gave us free will, who are you to deny it? And don't mistake the drawing and pleading (yes, pleading) of God for force. Is a man weak and helpless if he asks a woman to marry him? Or does he plead because he cannot force her to love and accept him? Love cannot be forced; it's that simple.
Once again: the fact that you are getting so upset about this is proof enough to me that God does not micromanage us. If I truly have no choice that God doesn't force upon me, then you are actually fighting against the will of God by even talking to me about this. Conversely, if God is not forcing me to reject the teaching of Predestination, then you've already lost your case. I will never understand why anyone who rejects free will ever argues about anything.
Ehh, you don't understand it. I'll just leave it at that.
I actually "called" that a while back. That's the whole reason I wanted to pin you down on your terms. Calvinists always say people don't understand Calvinism.
Maybe God is forcing me to say this, but I could as easily say that it's you who doesn't understand. But why bother? If I have no free will, I'm only acting out the commands of God, and neither of us has anything to say about it.
You aren't necessarily doing what God has commanded you to do, but you have done what he planned for you to do from eternity past.
You see, I have been debating with you because I wanted to, that's my will and my responsibility. It can also be said that God planned for me to want to do so, that's his plan and his purpose.
If God didn't want this to happen, why did it then? Is he so careless that he would give his creatures a "Free-will" to do things he never wanted them to do?
God not only determines the ends, he determines the means. The means of this conversation has been our wills. Are these outside his plan? Of course not.
I also apologize for my previous comment. I realize it was not very friendly.
Ok guys... 4 pages in 1 day... are either of you closer to surrendering your position? No. So, why don't we end this thread now.