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Predestination a biblical perspective

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by GBzone, Feb 6, 2015.

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  1. Predestination . A subject that is not easy to get ones head around though the spirit can grasp it far easier .
    Make no mistake .The scriptures clearly teach that we are "predestined from before the foundations of the world unto good works that we should walk in them"
    So let any or all who deny such a thing . keep silent .
    If people actually went to the scriptures "to check if these things be true" rather than to all the different schools of 'theology' that are so entrenched in their positions .They either are still at the reformation or in a reverse reformation depending on who you believe .
    But what does the scriptures say?
    That every seed brings forth fruit "after its own kind "
    A tomato seed will not bring forth apples .It is pre DESTINED to bring forth tomatoes and nothing else .
    I do not believe we ,the church really understands the depths of what happened when Adam sinned and obeyed not God but his wife .
    Perhaps a long hard and sober look at the Lords answer to sin may give us such a glimpse of the truth . When "he who knew no sin became sin"
    be that as it may the fact is that even as" Levi was in the loins of Abraham when he gave tithes to Malchesidech ". So all men were in the loins of Adam when he corrupted himself and became subject to sin and death.
    and are of his seed .
    If then we are born of a corruptible seed which is of the first man that is of the earth .
    Then that seed is predestined to bring forth corruption unto death .
    and thus we are all born in sin and are by nature (including those who say they believe in Calvanism) " children of wrath " and as Ephesians say were as all men "children of disobedience"
    Who then is excused? or not counted among such ? For all have sinned and have come short of the glory of God .Including Mary the mother of the Lords flesh .
    Whether they be Jew or gentile . If any doubt it then Pauls argument in Romans is or should be enough and if it is not then this wont.
    Then how is a man predestined for another end?
    By being BORN again of another seed .
    For while man or Adam was CREATED in the image of God . He is BORN in the image of Adam and thus "shapen in iniquity "
    Being born of a corruptible seed means all men are predestined to brign forth corruption unto death .
    You "MUST be BORN again " of an "incorruptible seed which is the Word of God" Means you are "translated not only from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of Gods dear Son" But from one predestination to another .
    For an incorruptible seed is also subject to that law of God whereby every seed brings forth fruit after its own kind.
    Thus this seed is predestined to bring forth righteousness unto life .

    To be continued.....

    in Christ
  2. Too much fluff in your writing.
    That's all fine and dandy except you miss the main point - the sins of the father are not the sins of the son.
    1. (Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
    2. (Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."
  3. I just quoted some points in your OP that I would challenge.

    Adam did not "obey his wife", he "listened to his wife". But what does that mean? It means he heard her responses to the serpent, since he was "with her" the whole time. She never tempted Adam; it is the serpent who tempted Eve. Scripture states that Eve was the victim of deception, not the perpetrator.

    The literal word-for-word for Heb. 7:9-10: "and as saying to say through Abraham and of Levi the tenths taking hold of has been given a tenth still because in the loins of the father was when met together with him Melchizedek". But words are not written in a vacuum but in relation to other words in the sentence. The phrase "and as saying to say" is more accurately rendered "you could even say". It does not mean "and the Word says", since there is no definite article ("the") and it isn't "logos". Further, if this meant that Levi was literally and physically in Abraham when he paid the (one-time) tithe, then so also would be all the descendants of Abraham, not just those of the priesthood, and no one at all would be required to pay it. Rather, the writer of Hebrews is simply remarking that "in a way" or "you could say" that Levi paid the tithe vicariously, but not that this is the reason Levi and the priests don't pay it. The real reason is that the priests are the recipients of the tithe, not the payers, because they were given no land of their own. We also know that only half a person's genetic material is in any male including Abraham, so Levi was certainly not literally inside of Abraham at the time.

    As for the image of Adam, scripture post-Fall says we are all still made in the image of God (Gen. 9:6, James 3:9). This hardly means that we are immortal and perfect, since it's obvious we are neither. But we should not take doctrine from poetry; for example, David would not say that only his mother was sinful and not his father also. He spoke hyperbole in a moment of despair. Rather, we are "fearfully and wonderfully made" (Ps. 139:14, if we can quote poetry).

    So I would ask you to consider these things, along with the quote from Ezekiel showing that the guilt of sin is not inherited (though the consequences can be, such as mortality).
    Major likes this.
  4. Well said!
    Relentless likes this.
  5. :cool:
  6. Gerald, you said..................
    "So all men were in the loins of Adam when he corrupted himself and became subject to sin and death.
    and are of his seed ."

    You just confirmed the doctrine of "Federal Headship" which means that all men are sinners even after they come to Christ just as was Adam. Forgiven just as was Adam but still sinners none the less.

    I may be wrong but I think you objected to that doctrine in another thread......"Doctrinal Authority".
  7. Gerald.....purely in a helpful attitude, I would say that "Predestination" would be the last topic that needs to be discussed on an open forum. It is difficult to explain, difficult to accept and ultimately will lead to confrontational and personal comments.

    I hope that does not happen for your thread, but if it does remember that it was me who...............
  8. All I know is that if predestination (to salvation) is true, then it's pointless to argue about it. :D
  9. ;)
  10. Ya know, all this positivity might go to my head... but I'll take the risk. :) Thank you.
  11. One interesting point to me, just to consider, is that foreknowledge is the Greek word "prognosis" (to fore-know or have pre-knowledge of something) and though related to "proozizo" (to pre-determine) it carries with it the indication of knowing something (thus predeterminnig something) based on seeable circumstances or conditions (such as symptoms in a medical sense). In other words the "prognosis" is based on something not a determination which simply becomes the reality. According to Peter THIS is the basis of our election (eklektos). How does that fact fit into the idea of pre-destination to any of you....In 2 Thessalonians Paul says He has "chosen" us according to two things....the sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. So thus there were two things that came into play in God's choosing...should this insight effect our thoughts on the matter?
  12. You are at liberty to challenge them . But you have not undermined my argument by your challenge .
    You argue that Adam did not obey his wife.
    Who then did he obey? Clearly not God .
    It is written that she GAVE the fruit to Adam he then received it. I hold to no other translation than the KJV.
    As God told Adam NOT to eat of that fruit .He then obeyed Eve by taking it for eh clearly did not obey God.
    I would direct your attention to the Lords teaching on the kingdom of God . As to a good man sowing the good seed in his field and "while men slept " his enemy came and sowed tares .
    It is not then unreasonable to say that Adam was asleep either physically or spiritually while the serpent sowed his lies in the mind and heart of Eve .
    People who sin always want to have others sin with them.
    The sin of Lucifer "to be like God " was then propagated to Eve "ye shall be like God" who in turn by giving the apple to Adam who did that which God had commanded not to do then usurped Gods position also .
    Adams sin was greater and the consequences more dire.
    For if he had refused what she gave him . She would have died but he would not have and like JOB who did not listen to his wife received another in her stead .
    Im afraid your Greek or Hebrew mislead you .
    For are we not born of "corruptable seed"? and are we not sons of the earth and therefore of Adam?
    Then we were in his loins as the Jews were in Abrahams .
    No actually Levi PAID tithes to Christ of whom melchesidec was in type while they were in the loins of Abraham.
    If then we were made subject to sin and death in and through Adam.
    Are we not who believe "blessed IN Christ from before the foundations of the world?"
    If then we are cursed IN Adam we are blessed in Christ .
    If death came through the first Adam .Life came through the last Adam.
    It is the man who determines the blood of the baby not the mother .
    The righteous line came through though the male line .
    Untill Christ .
    Then everything changes .in and by a new covenan.t

    In Christ

  13. If it descends to such a carnal level it will not be by my doing .
    There is a great difference between a progressive and unfolding discussion of biblical truth . and what I call head banging where you defend your 'truth' and another defends their 'truth' till the day they die .
    Personally I am fed up to the teeth of such people who hinder any progress in understanding or stop people coming to a knowledge of the truth.
    They will pay a awful price for doing so .
    Did not the Lord promise that when the Spirit of truth shall come HE will lead us into all truth?
    Is beyond the wit of God then to give us understanding when we by our own cannot?

    in Christ
  14. Your opinion.

    Exactly. He obeyed no one. And you have not offered any scriptural backing for the claim that he obeyed Eve.

    I look at the Hebrew and Greek, even if through interlinears, and she did indeed hand it to him... because he was right there, as it says "her husband with her".

    Taking what someone offers you is NOT obedience. It is acceptance.

    That parable has nothing to do with the Fall in the slightest. Nothing in the context indicates Eve sneaking around, or Adam not being there when the serpent tempted her. To assert that Adam was asleep is a novel yet ridiculous claim, since once again nothing in the text backs it up. This is purely grasping at straws to avoid admitting what the text gives us: Adam was right there while Eve was being tempted, wide awake and aware.

    Another baseless assertion.

    I know the whole passage very well. But at least now you admit that Adam simply and willingly rebelled against God without being tempted or beguiled. That is why his was the greater sin, plus the fact that he blamed God for making Eve. At least Eve correctly identified the trickster.

    Apparently you are one of those who thinks the KJV corrects the Greek and Hebrew. If so, there is no further point in trying to discuss this, or anything else, with you.
  15. Now here's something we can both agree on!
    Major likes this.
  16. Never having heard the term . I have no idea .

    If a man says he has no sin the truth is not in him comes to mind .
    Adam IF he was forgiven ; the known fact is that Abel was .

    But if Adam had been restored to his former estate by the animal skin covering .Why the need of a promise .
    But what does Paul say/teach about animal sacrifice that it did not remove the knowledge of sin from the conscience .
    But needed a better sacrifice and a better covenant and a better priesthood. Hebrews I think.
    and in another place they were not made perfect without us .
    What I said and do say is that the gospel of jesus Christ is more radical than people realise .
    For oen thing if we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship one with the other and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin" That is continually .
    as we continually walk with Him .
    As the natural so the spiritual.
    Even as the natural blood of this body continually circulates this earthly body and cleanses it from all that would pollute it .
    So too the body of Christ is continually cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ .as we so walk with Him .
    It is a living continuous abiding IN Him.
    Not a once BORN and wandering in the wilderness for 40 years and counting it as the NORM of christain life

    in Christ
  17. No I am one who finds that the translation of the KJV is the most accurate into English and that a lot of people think that learning Hebrew or Greek automatically means you understand the scripture and those who don't cant .
    He that receiveth me said Jesus receiveth Him that sent me .
    He that does not also does not .
    What then did Adam receive ? and whos words was accepted? By the doing of it ?
    In Christ
  18. Shut the front door!!!! You have never heard of Federal Headship????

    It is what you explained as who we as people are in Adam.

    It is the teaching that the father is the one who represents his family, his descendants. Proof of this can be found in Heb. 7:8-10....................
    "Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him."

    Adam needed a "covering" because he was a sinner my friend. He was NOT restored to his former self but had to live the rest of his physical life under the curse of sin. He and Eve died spiritually the moment that they ate the fruit but lived another 960 years physically.

    It is the same with YOU and ME. Our sin natural, thanks to Adam confirms that we are sinners and we sin because we are sinners and Adam need the promise of a Messiah just as do YOU and me.
  19. Dadgummed.....spot on my brother.
    Relentless likes this.
  20. So true!
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