Predestination a biblical perspective

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by GBzone, Feb 6, 2015.

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  1. In your discussion I should offer the fact that the scripture plainly says that God gave humans a certain degree of autonomy (freedom to make their own not-predetermined choices) because it is written that God gave man "dominion" over the things on the earth (as an undershepherd - Genesis 1:28; Psalm 8, and more)....in man's folly, by choosing the way he would follow (the fruit of the line of thinking the Serpent offered in Genesis 3:1-4) in disregard for God's word (which was not God's will, as in that which God would have preferred - 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9) man was enticed and demonstrated he preferred to be as a god deciding good and evil as he thought right in his own eyes...

    Paul
     
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  2. So, you believe that the Lord God does not know all things? Is there any thing man can do in the future that can surprise the Lord. If God does not know all things, then he is not God all, but some other being masquerading around as the true God. I think what you are not seeing is how the Lord "relates" to man.
    How does a infinite beings who knows every single event that is going happen before it happens , and who knows every word, and thought that man will think and say before he says it relate. Man does not have a clue how such a being can communicate to him unless God lowers himself down to the level of man, and speak to him in a way he thinks. His ways are not our ways, and his thoughts are not our thoughts. Man thinks in a "time based logical way". He understands what happened yesterday, and what is happening now, but has no clue how someone can know exactly every event in how and why it happens before it happens. God does not live in a timed based world, there is no time in his Kingdom, there fore he sees everything as already happened. This should be very easy for a Christian to understand this because we have the "mind of Christ", and also are living with him in his Kingdom right now in Christ. If we do not understand this then we are still operating from our carnal mind which has no understanding in how to live in timeless realm where God sits enthroned in all his Glory.
     
  3. If Jesus was not the "creator" then we are living in a fantasy world that does not exist.

    John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    All things were created by the Word which is God. What you do not see is, "in Christ (the Word) lives and dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily". (Col 2:9) God's "body" is his Word!!!
    You can not have the Father speak without the Son, and Holy Spirit speak as they are all one and agree in everything. What flows and comes out of the mouth of God? Words, and what are Words? They are Spirit and they are life.
     
  4. Romans 8:29-30
    For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

    Acts 2:23
    This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

    1 Peter 1:20
    He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

    We also were foreknown before the foundation of the world and are now being manifested on earth in 'time' for the sake of others to fulfill our purpose and carry the gospel and be ministers of reconciliation to a dying world.
     
  5. No, In your post you gave scriptures that Modalist and oneness give.

    It's a hard concept to understand that Trinity is not in Scripture. The folks that made the doctrine did not use scripture.

    Trinity never makes 3 that are 1 in scriptures. That is added at the end.

    It's silly people that came in later (Modalist) who try to prove trinity in scriptures. Rome never did that. IN fact, Rome stated it's not in scipture.

    Jesus is not His Father. God The Father did not make himself heir of all things, of things He already owned.

    The Father called the Son servant in Isa and again in Acts.

    The Son has always been with the Father.

    There is one Lord God, ONe Lord Jesus Christ. There has always been One Lord God, one saviour the God of Isreal, the creator. Which pleased him by crucifying His Son for us.

    This is why the Modern Trinity doctrine irks me making there only be ONE GOD. The Original made Jesus like His Father, but not His Father.

    Abraham sat his son on that alter. God looking for a man who would be faithful and not with hold his son from him.

    Abraham was going to kill His son, and God looked down and said......... "Now I know, there is nothing you would with hold from me.

    If a man would do that for God, give something Abraham waited years for in hope, not considering his own body.

    God was then going to not withold his son.

    People just don't get it, the price and chance the Father took. They think well, Jesus was God, came in the flesh, did the part to save mankind and all was good and easy.

    NO, He sent His Son to become a man in the flesh, and be subject to the tempations of the devil.

    It was not just all part of some play, and going through the motions. Jesus resisted sin unto blood. Every fiber in his being wanted to walk away from the cross.

    Everything God had made, even his most perfect angel turned on him. Adam turned on him.

    Now, God was willing to put his son in a flesh body and put it all on the line. People say, well ........... God already knew what would happen.........Jesus comes, suffers a bit and saves us.

    NO.......... Jesus had to be obedient unto death. It was Jesus that was tempted in all ways, and did not sin. He made that choice, and his flesh being pulled in all kinds of directions.

    Jesus could have called angels down, could have done lot of things but did not use his sonship but made himself like us.

    Think how hard that would be for you and me. All this power, but we just sit there and take it.

    It's the Anticrhist that denies the Father and Son............ Trinity keeps the Father and son but decalres there is only One of them.

    Onenes right off the bat says there is One that becomes 3.

    There can't be one, there was a Son who endured much, there was a Father who put everything on the line for us. This is why we are blessed with faithful Abraham if we be Christ Seed.

    Anyway, be blessed. this is way off topic.......... back to predestination.
     
  6. Regarding Jesus:
    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Colossians 1:15-17
    15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…
     
  7. I gave a lot of scripture references, and none of them teach or support Modalism, which I specifically refuted. If Modalists believe John 3:16, does that make me a Modalist? Of course not. Likewise, if cite scripture saying that Jesus is the agent of creation, that is not Modalism. Neither is it Modalism to quote Isaiah 9:6 which calls the Son the "everlasting Father".

    At this point I'm not sure you understand what Modalism is, since it teaches that there is no Trinity. So you're actually teaching Modalism.
     
  8. Hello there Brother. You seem to have forgotten my question about Sodom.

    I can't help your oneness or a modalist. You seem to be OK with believing one thing and when a scripture contradicts that belief, you don't stop and say.......... "How can that be? I believe this, but the Word says that?"

    I am not that way. If I believe it's God's will to heal and someone brings up Paul's thorn, or Job, then I stop and check to make sure what I was believing has ZERO scripture contradictions.

    I just don't bypass other scriptures wanting to believe something else and holding on to the scriptures that support what I want to believe.

    God had to go down and look to know if the sin matched the cry He heard from Sodom.

    Had to go down and look for himself.

    This one scripture blows your theory of God declared all things from start to end.

    I was just getting started though, I have a whole lot more.

    If Jesus is the Creator, then the Father did not make Jesus heir of all things or make the Worlds for the son. In fact there is no scripture that says Jesus is the creator. All scriptures match and are perfect.

    Heb 1:2 kjva Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Who made the worlds for who?

    This is what bugs me about you. You are willing to ignore scriptures to hold onto your doctrines. That is pride, and you do well to break free of it and let the scriptures correct you, not you making the scriptures fit what you want to believe.

    Who made the Worlds for and because of the Son?

    The KJV could have translated "Di" better. It's good enough but folks for some odd silly reason read it wrong anyway.

    Di, means an act through a channel of something. translated "By" in English.

    Joh 1:3 20cNT through him all things came into being, and nothing came into being apart from him.

    Col 1:16-18 20cNT 16 for in him was created all that is in Heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible — Angels and Archangels and all the Powers of Heaven. 17 All has been created through him and for him. He was before all things, and all things unite in him;

    Heb 1:2 kjva Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    The Lord God, the Father, the Creator, before the foundation of the World, made all things for and through the Son. Everything was made because of the Son and all things made consist through the Son of God.

    From the very start, the plan was to unite and put all things made in the power of the Son. Things seen, and unseen was to be in and through the Son of God.

    This was the Fathers plan, to make all things for His son, by whom the Father Gave glory to the Son before the foundation of the World. (John 17)

    The predestination of all things made seen and unseen were to be in the Son before the foundation of the World. All creation choosen to be In HIm before it was even made.

    So when Paul says He choose us in Him before the foundation of the World. Paul is saying that all things were made and for the Son of God, and we are suppose to be in the Son as was the plan from the start.

    There is nothing made that was not suppose to be subject to the Son of God, all predestined to be under and in Him.

    You claim God pickes who............ The scripture never said that.

    All scriptures must match perfectly and be compared. The Word corrects us, not our doctrine correcting the Word. I can't help you have been fed nonesense and believed it.

    I was fed garbage to, but I Got with God and said, your will, your Word, show me why these scriptures contradict what I was taught.

    Why did you have to search for hearts God, if you knew from the foundation of the World. Why would you say that in your Word? Show me.

    Why does it say you made the Worlds for the son, when I am told Jesus created all things. Show me this contradiction.

    I stop with just one scripture that counters what I believed. I seek.

     
  9. #189 CCW95A, Feb 10, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2015
    Brother, you seem to be using "logical" means in which to understand scripture, when in truth, truth is understood by faith. It is only by faith we understand that the worlds were created by the Word of God, because we were not there. In fact anything that does not come from faith is "sin" even in our understanding of scripture.
    If you have scriptures that say, "God knows all things", and then you scripture that say the Lord went down to Sodom to see if their sins were as described" How do you reconcile these differences? Does God really know all things, or are there lies written in scripture?
    How about, there are more than 2,500 prophecies foretold in scripture given by God. 2,000+ have come to pass exactly as foretold years, decades , and even centuries before they happened. How could this be? Either God knows all things, or he is just really really good guesser.

    If God does not know all things, then how can you believe in your own salvation? If all you have is a hope that maybe you might have eternal life or, just maybe God as already prepared a Kingdom for you, you will be one of the most miserable person in this world. Our faith is based on what God has already done for us, and to the physical man this is in future. If we can not trust in God for the future that he already knows, then we are all in deep trouble.
     
  10. I believe that God is omniscient. Plus man has absolutely no control or power over the fact that you will ever know the depths of His wisdom and knowledge (including foreknowledge and its workings) and his WAYS, heart and mind. Remember, "the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God....How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!" Rom. 11:33

    He foreknew all we would say and do before the foundations of the world in eternity past. He knew down to the smallest details and could even number the hairs on our heads. When He told Abe He would go down to Sodom and see for Himself, He already foreknew that whole scenario and was merely manifesting it in time - on the earth. He wanted Abe to see His ways and His heart in operation, as well as His Grace and desire to communicate and have relationship.
     
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  11. I'm still convinced that if Predestination is true, there's no point in arguing about it. ;)
     
  12. Hello all.

    Just stopped by to say that God has predestined eternity. If he has not, then we must conclude that there is some event that is outside his power and purpose. If that is the case, he is not All-Powerful. So you see to argue against predestination is to argue against the Omnipotence of the Almighty.
     
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  13. The reason why it is important to us is because our faith is based on what God has already done for us through his Son Jesus Christ. Yet this "predestination" is our future, which was already prepared for us from the beginning. If we can not trust what God has for us in the future, in which he already knows, then we have no hope for anything.
     
  14. "predestined eternity" is a little vague, but use caution in declaring that disagreement on this issue makes someone say that God is not omnipotent. The point about debates on Predestination is whether people have the free will to accept or reject the Gospel without God first forcefully (irresistibly) changing their "nature". This is classic Calvinistic teaching. I do not agree with this teaching, yet I most assuredly believe that what God has prophesied will come to pass, because God is indeed omnipotent. So again... use caution in declaring that anyone who disagrees with predestination is saying God is not omnipotent.
     
  15. As I was explaining in my previous comment that happened while you were commenting as well, I do indeed trust what God has planned for the future, but at the same time I do not believe God decided which people to save.
     
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  16. Neither do I. :)
     
  17. You simply either believe that everything happens according to God's will, or that his will is not done. If God has chosen to save some by sending Jesus to die for them and the Holy Spirit to indwell them who are we to say that is wrong? I thank God for giving me a salvation I cannot reject.
     
  18. Do you believe that God micromanages everything?
     
  19. I believe that nothing is outside his control and purpose. He does not need to manage things, they are already managed.
     
  20. Already managed by whom?
     
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