Original Sin

[SergioL]

When my husband left the church and joined another, I thought I would join, too. They had a statement that I had to agree with in order to join. Part of it said that everyone is born in sin, and they used David's psalm to prove it. Well, of course, that proves nothing about anyone other than David, and I did not believe in original sin, so I could not sign and did not join. Instead, I went home and studied it the idea.

Some tried to prove it by bringing up infants' crying, kicking, and waving their hands, which was ridiculous. That is the only way a baby has of communicating; shall we say they sin by communicating needs? (I've seen a lot of preachers doing similar things!)

By the end of my study, I found several Scriptures that support that we are all born in sin, but David's statement of being born in sin cannot legitimately be one of them.

Could you please cite those verses here?

 

[Major]

When my husband left the church and joined another, I thought I would join, too. They had a statement that I had to agree with in order to join. Part of it said that everyone is born in sin, and they used David's psalm to prove it. Well, of course, that proves nothing about anyone other than David, and I did not believe in original sin, so I could not sign and did not join. Instead, I went home and studied it the idea.

Some tried to prove it by bringing up infants' crying, kicking, and waving their hands, which was ridiculous. That is the only way a baby has of communicating; shall we say they sin by communicating needs? (I've seen a lot of preachers doing similar things!)

By the end of my study, I found several Scriptures that support that we are all born in sin, but David's statement of being born in sin cannot legitimately be one of them.

Instead of babies crying and kicking and so forth, consider two babies playing. When one sees his friend playing with a certain toy, what does the other child always do?????? He reaches over and take the toy. Does that not speak of sin? Taking what one wants with no reguard for what someone else thinks. YES I know it is small children.

 

[Major]

That's an interesting verse. Yes.

Acts 17:26...........
“And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth”.

WHY??? Because we all come from the same original man we inherited his flawed makeup of nature. Sin entered the world through the first man and spread to all his offspring- this happened by Adam sinning. Death is a result of sin, it was THE result of sin. It occurred two ways.

First God told Adam the day you eat of it you will die, Adam was separated from the Lord he died spiritually and was severed in his relationship.

Second- He died physically, which was a result of his nature change. Aging and death began on that day. Both were a result from his disobedience in eating the fruit of the tree. 1 Cor.15:56: “the sting of death is sin,..”

Romans 5:18-19 says,........
"through one man's trespass, judgment came to all men, for by one man's disobedience all were made sinners."

We are all born with a built-in death warrant, which is our sin nature, because we have inherited this sin nature from Adam we are already born spiritually dead (separated from God) and die physically.

1 Cor. 15:22...........
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.”

Death came by Adam and the resurrection can only come to mankind by believing in Jesus Christ.
Later, God brought the law for us to see our sin measured by his standard.

Gal 3:19...............
“Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions,.., until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.”

Rom. 5:20-21............
“Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Because of our fallen humanity we cannot act apart from our nature. We can see the sin nature at work even in a child who is not trained in behavior as a child disobeys and is selfish naturally, they do not need to learn this. The Bible says we act on our nature.

 

[Silk]

Answer this: Do children die? The answer of course is: they do. Death is a major part of Original Sin. Do I think children sin? No - leastways not as infants. But the mortal flesh (psst... dna) means you will die.

 

[Phoneman777]

Psalms 51:5
English Standard Version
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

How do you understand that verse?

It can not be intelligently denied that David here is speaking of original sin. He claims that the source of his life is just as polluted as its streams. He has a natural bent from birth towards sin as do we all.

Given the option, we would choose wrong every single time.

David IMO is speaking of "Congenital depravity."

I don't think we are born condemned for Adam's sin, rather, I think we come under condemnation when we knowingly (and inevitably) choose to sin. David speaks of the "sinful nature" that Adam's original sin passed to his mother, of whom he was born. The Catholic church has always taught that babies are born condemned by Adam's sin and need to be baptized to "wash away original sin", lest they die condemned. In the past, regional bans of religious rites, such as infant baptism, over an entire area were effective in frightening the people into pressuring the out of line secular authority to resubmit to the supreme authority of the church, at which time it was lifted. Protestants interpreted the Bible as teaching that Jesus removed the guilt of original sin from us the instant that it passed to us when he stepped in between it and Adam and Eve in promising to take the guilt upon Himself at Calvary.

 

[CCW95A]

If you want to know where "original" sin came from, it was not from Adam, but Lucifer.

1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

You ever notice that when scriptures talks about sinners, they do not say, "you are of your father Adam?" Because Adam was not the author of original sin, Lucifer was.

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

When it comes to "condemnation" we inherited that from Adam because of his transgression, not ours.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Jesus did not come to destroy the works of Adam, but the works of the Devil.

 

[Phoneman777]

Instead of babies crying and kicking and so forth, consider two babies playing. When one sees his friend playing with a certain toy, what does the other child always do?????? He reaches over and take the toy. Does that not speak of sin? Taking what one wants with no reguard for what someone else thinks. YES I know it is small children.

It does speak of sin, or lawbreaking, in the sense of perhaps covetousness on the part of both babies, but since their behavior is not based on a conscious decision to break a commandment, like adults do all the time, but merely a selfish desire that their sinful nature wishes to indulge, God considers it a sin of ignorance which carries no penalty.

 

[TezriLi]

Could you please cite those verses here?

Oh, man. That was years ago. I would be glad to try to find my notes, however, if you'll remind me. I am almost ready to go home from work with a terrific headache . . . .

EZRI -- READ PAGE 2 HERE!!

 

[CCW95A]

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,

 

[TezriLi]

Instead of babies crying and kicking and so forth, consider two babies playing. When one sees his friend playing with a certain toy, what does the other child always do?????? He reaches over and take the toy. Does that not speak of sin? Taking what one wants with no reguard for what someone else thinks. YES I know it is small children.

Do I have to? Waaaaaaahhhhhhhh! I don't wanna! Besides, I wrote, "By the end of my study, I found several Scriptures that support that we are all born in sin, but David's statement of being born in sin cannot legitimately be one of them." Do I have to defend the other side? (Whimper-weep!)

 

[Abdicate]

So it is in this in the form of a curse?
View attachment 1087

More like the lacking of the spiritual strand... instead of a double helix maybe it was a triple helix... You won't get an answer from the Scriptures. What you have to understand is the word of God is like a photo album of events throughout history therefore you must experience a spiritual life, not view it. I do believe something happened to our DNA because after Adam ate, then they fell. Jesus says:

Matthew 26:26-28 (KJV)
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Even the act of eating Jesus restored.

 

[Major]

It does speak of sin, or lawbreaking, in the sense of perhaps covetousness on the part of both babies, but since their behavior is not based on a conscious decision to break a commandment, like adults do all the time, but merely a selfish desire that their sinful nature wishes to indulge, God considers it a sin of ignorance which carries no penalty.

Correct......but we are not addressing the right or wrong or punishment if it is a sin. We are talking about being born with a nature to do what we want to do. Can you not see that it speaks of what is coming next for those children. If they do what they do without knowing what it is they want, what will be the result when they do know what they want. They will take it!!!!

 

[Major]

I don't think we are born condemned for Adam's sin, rather, I think we come under condemnation when we knowingly (and inevitably) choose to sin. David speaks of the "sinful nature" that Adam's original sin passed to his mother, of whom he was born. The Catholic church has always taught that babies are born condemned by Adam's sin and need to be baptized to "wash away original sin", lest they die condemned. In the past, regional bans of religious rites, such as infant baptism, over an entire area were effective in frightening the people into pressuring the out of line secular authority to resubmit to the supreme authority of the church, at which time it was lifted. Protestants interpreted the Bible as teaching that Jesus removed the guilt of original sin from us the instant that it passed to us when he stepped in between it and Adam and Eve in promising to take the guilt upon Himself at Calvary.

And the Catholic church has been wrong for almost 2000 years in their practice of infant baptism.

A sinner must make a conscious choice to accept the Lord Jesus THEN be baptized which validates his choice.

I must disagree with your comment of........
" Protestants interpreted the Bible as teaching that Jesus removed the guilt of original sin from us the instant that it passed to us when he stepped in between it and Adam and Eve in promising to take the guilt upon Himself at Calvary."

All humans suffer the consequence of Adam’s sin (Rom. 5:12). And as a result of Christ’s atoning death, and our obedience to him (Rom. 6:17-18), we are “reckoned” as righteous before God (Rom. 4:5). In a manner of speaking, his perfect sacrifice was “credited to our account”.

 

[KingJ]

I must say that I don't know much about the doctrine of original sin. Sometimes I have come across some verses that seem to disprove this theory entirely, but I know that many people believe in it. So, what's your personal opinion about this topic? Which verses would you cite to support (or disprove) this doctrine?Is it an important doctrine?

1. Sin originated with the devil. So it is fine to call him the father of sin. It is fine to say you are of your father the devil to sinners. It is fine to say we have a satanic nature if sinners.
2. God put the devil on earth. So clearly God wanted to speed up the inevitable fall of man.
3. The devil tempted Eve. Eve tempted Adam. Adam sinned. Their sin caused Adam, Eve and the Earth to become corrupted. Lions no longer ate grass.
4. All Adam's children grew up in a sinful environment. Because of this they would all sin the moment the reach the age of understanding. It was / is inevitable.

So, we are not guilty of Adam's sin anymore then Adam is guilty of Eve's sin or Eve of the devil's. We are all guilty of our own. Hence we will all go to hell and pay for our sins. The devil will not be the only one in hell for a reason. No baby is born with sin. But we are born in sin.

 

[CCW95A]

No body is born sinless on planet earth except Jesus Christ! If infants are why would Jesus need to have given his life for sins?
Peter tells us that even children need to have their sins removed for salvation.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Jesus said nobody can come to the Father except by Him! There is no other name under heaven were by one can be saved.

King David had a very young child with Bathsheba through adultery and Lord took him because of his sin. Even though he fasted and prayed for his life the death of his son still happened. Yet, after his death David said ...

2Sa 12:23 But now he's dead. So why should I go without eating? Can I bring him back to life again? Someday I'll go to him. But he won't return to me."

David knew he would see his son again, but not in this world. He would go to him to see him again indicating that his son was with the Lord.

A infant can be a sinner and yet be innocent at the same time. When Israel disobeyed and did not take the promised land which God commanded them to do but led through the desert for forty years until they all died except their children who were innocent from their parents sins because they did fully understand their parents actions.

Deu 1:38 But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.
Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Even though these children were sinners they did not fully comprehend the difference between good and evil so they were innocent.
All children when growing up know when their parents tell them "no" not to do certain things, but they still do it smiling back at us. Sometimes they think is funny when they disobey, and we laugh at them too because they are so cute, and adorable. This proves their guilt, but the Lord holds man accountable for his actions based on comprehending his actions as being wrong. Children all grow up to come to this comprehension at different times in their life there is not certain age were this comes.

 

[KingJ]

A Baby has sin?

Would you ever send a baby to hell? What do you think of someone who would? Is God good or evil?

A baby dies and goes straight into God's presence....where NO SIN is allowed.

You are confusing two things though. When Jesus says nobody comes to the Father....you are missing the fact that He says ''''Father''''.
A baby can never know God as Father until the baby comes of age and accepts Jesus. Same with mentally handicapped. Hence working brains = accountability. Hence theistic evolution is nonsense .

 

[CCW95A]

A Baby has sin?

Would you ever send a baby to hell? What do you think of someone who would? Is God good or evil?

A baby dies and goes straight into God's presence....where NO SIN is allowed.

You are confusing two things though. When Jesus says nobody comes to the Father....you are missing the fact that He says ''''Father''''.
A baby can never know God as Father until the baby comes of age and accepts Jesus. Same with mentally handicapped. Hence working brains = accountability. Hence theistic evolution is nonsense .

A baby is sinless? Never happen, as the sin nature from Adam was passed to every living being. Evidently you did not read my previous post because if you did you would have read that God only holds people accountable according to their comprehension of right and wrong. Dose a baby fully comprehend the difference between right and wrong? They don't but they are still sinners even though they are innocent.

 

[KingJ]

A baby is sinless? Never happen, as the sin nature from Adam was passed to every living being. Evidently you did not read my previous post because if you did you would have read that God only holds people accountable according to their comprehension of right and wrong. Dose a baby fully comprehend the difference between right and wrong? They don't but they are still sinners even though they are innocent.

I read your post which is why I asked you, would God send a baby to hell or heaven? hell = God is dumb and evil. Heaven = God is sane / no sin is in His presence.

Where do you believe babies go when they die?

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

Personally I think that a baby has no capacity to sin, because they have no capacity to make real choices yet. Their souls are not yet mature enough to be considered sinners. They are innocent, and I believe all babies who died will be in Christ's kingdom to live a new life with Him. Sure the capacity to sin later in life is within them, but that doesn't make them sinners.

 

[CCW95A]

I read your post which is why I asked you, would God send a baby to hell or heaven? hell = God is dumb and evil. Heaven = God is sane / no sin is in His presence.

Where do you believe babies go when they die?

If someone is innocent were would God send someone? All aborted and very young children who do not fully comprehend the difference between right and wrong go to be with the Lord.